Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

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borjastick
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby borjastick » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:03 pm)

I agree with you Steven as common sense would argue that these reports are nonsensical and impractical at best, but what actual proof is there that they are false and were obtained by torture?
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:08 pm)

Ganglere, are you sure that Obersturmbahnführer Haensch resisted the Hoaxter narrative during his testimony? His sentence was commuted from death to 15 years and I doubt that he served all of it. My belief is that those who didn't play ball with the Hoaxters swung from the rope..

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Hannover » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:28 pm)

MorrisT wrote:Lohengrin,

According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.



According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?

MorrisT:

Quoting a website won't cut it here. Show us the original documents, do not dodge this request.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Hannover » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:32 pm)

borjastick wrote:I agree with you Steven as common sense would argue that these reports are nonsensical and impractical at best, but what actual proof is there that they are false and were obtained by torture?

Are there verbatim transcripts available for review? No.

Are there verbatim cross examinations available for review? No.

Are the claimed mass graves available for review? No.

Are original German documents ever shown? No.

Torture was the norm, not isolated events. See: 'False Confessions' viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6229&p=44610

Remember, the onus is upon the accuser. Not the other way around.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Cloud » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:37 pm)

MorrisT wrote:Lohengrin,

According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.



According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?

Were these jewish civilians who were shot, or jewish enemy combatants? Distinctions are important.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Hektor » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:01 pm)

MorrisT wrote:...
According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.
Were the Germans lying?
Please produce a scan-copy of that report.
What gives you the idea that this report did actually stem from the Germans?

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby SKcz » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:49 pm)

Here is alleged report presented by holocaustresearchproject.org

Image
Image

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... biyar.html


They also present this photo:

Image
"Jews at Babi Yar waiting to be murdered"

But Martin Gilbert presented this photo provided to him by Yad Vashem with following caption:

"The Einsatzgruppen at work. These three photographs [this one is the first], taken by German Soldiers, show (below) women and girls at Dvinsk being forced to undress, and families being led, naked, to their execution at Misocz." (emphasis mine)

Martin Gilbert, Final Journey: The fate of the Jews in Nazi Europe, Morrison & Gibb Limited, Tanfield, Edinburgh, 1979, p. 60

"I am also grateful to all those who have made available photographic material, or who hold the copyright in the photographs...Yad Vashem, Jerusalem:[...]60,61[...]"

ibid., p. 219.


According to orthodox sources, this photo is from Dvinsk and from Babi Yar.

I found at least four sources using THIS famous photo (which is available in several versions) with caption "Babi Yar":

https://pigtailsinpaint.wordpress.com/2 ... a-tragedy/
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/sep ... n1311.html
http://www.koncentracni-tabory.estranky ... 5.jpg.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57sy0ZVDO0#t=1m09s

Thus according to orthodox sources, this photo is from Misocz, Babi Yar and Treblinka. Three different captions, this must be a record.

This prove they have no clue about these photos, they only pick what is suitable for their articles.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:43 pm)

Hannover
Torture was the norm, not isolated events. See: 'False Confessions' viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6229&p=44610


Indeed torture was the norm, but there is still much that we do not know about the insidious and unprecedented system of Hoaxter torture. Typically, torture has been proven to be an effective method of extracting false confessions, but there are always a few individuals among political or religious persecution victims who hold out and cannot be forced to placate the oppressor. Thus, in McCarthyist America or Stalinist Russia, there were a few brave souls who refused to name names or confess to nonexistent acts, but payed the price with a jail sentence or worse.

But in zionist West Germany, means of torture so compelling and devestating were utilised, that made it so that even the bravest SS member avowed the fantasy of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec gas chambers. Throw in the huge Auschwitz garrison former members and one has a substantial number of individuals who knew that no gas chambers existed at these facilities, but failed to express this reality when testifying. The unanimity and scope of these confessions is absolute proof that torture, in forms that we can't even imagine, must have been practiced to the limits of human brutality. Even generations later, the few remaining victims of West German torture have failed to risk a fearful return to the truth.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Dresden » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:07 pm)

Steven Willow said:

"Even generations later, the few remaining victims of West German torture have failed to risk a fearful return to the truth"

I'm sure they fear more for their children and grandchildren than they do for themselves. :(
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby borjastick » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:26 am)

Hannover wrote:
borjastick wrote:I agree with you Steven as common sense would argue that these reports are nonsensical and impractical at best, but what actual proof is there that they are false and were obtained by torture?

Are there verbatim transcripts available for review? No.

Are there verbatim cross examinations available for review? No.

Are the claimed mass graves available for review? No.

Are original German documents ever shown? No.

Torture was the norm, not isolated events. See: 'False Confessions' viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6229&p=44610

Remember, the onus is upon the accuser. Not the other way around.

- Hannover

Yes Hannover I don't doubt that torture was used in some cases and perhaps was the norm, however we are the accuser when it comes to the claim that these sonderkommando reports are false. So therefore what proof have we to make that claim. The photographic mix up and re-use to suit any and all claims of execution about to happen is both laughable and sad at the same time. Rhodes uses the classic picture of women in a queue 'waiting for execution' but this has been used in a number of other locations too. My point is that we need to prove that the einsatzgruppen reports were false. Add this claim to the lack of bodies, mass graves, photo evidence etc and it's game over for the 2 mill claim of jewish clearances in the barbarossa action.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby ganglere » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:44 am)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen!

Answer to Steven Willows question: Yes, I believe that Haensch pulled a ”Speer”* that is, he did not question the general accusation against the Einsatzgruppen, he just truthfully told his own experience from his time in the Kommando.

Within the framework of the trials, there was some room for individual relative innocence, as long as the general story was not questioned. And, his death sentence was commuted to fifteen years in prison, as you correctly report.

*Speer used this tactic successfully in denying any personal knowledge of the holocaust in Auschwitz, which is utter nonsense, as in his position as armaments minister, he could not have been ignorant of this, had it actually happened.

Humbly yours,

Ganglere

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby MorrisT » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:50 am)

Hannover wrote:
MorrisT wrote:Lohengrin,

According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.



According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?

MorrisT:

Quoting a website won't cut it here. Show us the original documents, do not dodge this request.

- Hannover



All I ever see here is people quoting other sources. I don't happen to personally own the Einsatzgruppen situation report documents.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Moderator » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:51 pm)

MorrisT;
You cannot continue to post to this thread unless you produce the information to support your position. You were challenged to do so after you made the claim that documents in your favor exist. That's the way it is here. If you claim something, fine. If you get challenged to produce it, then you must do so or leave the thread. Read the guidelines.
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby MorrisT » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:07 pm)

Moderator wrote:MorrisT;
You cannot continue to post to this thread unless you produce the information to support your position. You were challenged to do so after you made the claim that documents in your favor exist. That's the way it is here. If you claim something, fine. If you get challenged to produce it, then you must do so or leave the thread. Read the guidelines.
M1



OK will leave the thread.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:54 pm)

Moderator wrote:MorrisT;
You cannot continue to post to this thread unless you produce the information to support your position. You were challenged to do so after you made the claim that documents in your favor exist. That's the way it is here. If you claim something, fine. If you get challenged to produce it, then you must do so or leave the thread. Read the guidelines.
M1


Do you mean that whenever a member here post a statement, anyone will be allowed to ask him for an ORIGINAL domuments, scanned and sent here somehow ??? And in case he can't (who could?) he would be expel from further discussion??
Knowing that those original documents are located in Germany or Israel or whatever, it will be hard to comply for anyone living in the US or basically, not living in those town.
You can find fac simile of those report all over on the net.
SKcz posted one of them!
Apparently that would not fit for Hannover. Could he send us somewhere we could find the "original" report?

Edit: to give SKcz credit...


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