Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby SKcz » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:08 pm)

Moderator wrote:MorrisT;
You cannot continue to post to this thread unless you produce the information to support your position. You were challenged to do so after you made the claim that documents in your favor exist. That's the way it is here. If you claim something, fine. If you get challenged to produce it, then you must do so or leave the thread. Read the guidelines.
M1


Unless I did not miss something, alleged report is here in my previous comment. At least to my knowledge, I am not aware of original document or source where is original stored.

What is not clear to me why they claim:

"According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941." (emphasis mine)

When their published document shows 2. Okt. 1941
*
Here is one interesting gem, holocaustresearchproject.org used this photo in their article
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... abiyar.jpg

But this photo is in fact from John C. Ball who published it in his article here
http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/BallBabijark.jpg

Everybody can download them and compare size and resolution, is impossible that two different sources would be able to cut out the same part from original photo, match also resolution and even the size. Of course, you will not find any mention of source for this photograph on their web, they used it without any credit to revisionist source.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:35 pm)

MorrisT wrote:
Hannover wrote:
MorrisT wrote:Lohengrin,

According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.



According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?

MorrisT:

Quoting a website won't cut it here. Show us the original documents, do not dodge this request.

- Hannover





All I ever see here is people quoting other sources. I don't happen to personally own the Einsatzgruppen situation report documents.

Some years ago I wrote to the German National Archives requesting that I be allowed to view the original OSRs, and was told tha members of the public are only allowed to view copies. It seems obvious to me that the originals, which seemingly give such weighty support to the so called holocaust narrative, should be viewed by the masses within a glass enclosure. One must ask, "what are these people trying to hide?" One should assume that these so called documents, that are too simplistic and casually damning to the alleged persecutors, are forgeries like so many other documents that Hoaxters laud.

If there is even one document central to the bogus narrative that has not proven to be a fraud, I'd like to see it.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Hannover » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:20 pm)

The entire Babi Yar fraud has been demolished from pillar to post at this forum. It's too bad some folks choose to ignore that fact.

The so called 'document' on Babi Yar debunked here:
'J. Graf debunks C. Lindtner's bankrupt 'scholarship'
viewtopic.php?=2&t=6803&p=49159

and:
'Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6833&p=49539

also:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html

plus:
'Bogus alleged 'conversation' about Babi Yar'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=345&p=3580


This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby borjastick » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:10 am)

My understanding of the rules of proof we should adhere to is simple. When we quote a source of perhaps a news paper or website that isn't good enough in itself. We should be able to quote the original source for the quote/information, or have copies of it, or a picture that is known, or multiple source references. I don't think MorrisT is trying to be obtuse but he hasn't got the level of source material quite to this standard.

The reason is we can all say this or that happened or I read it here or saw it there, but that is just hearsay and lowers our debate to much of the hoaxters level. We are winning the war against the the hoax and its perpetrators by science and intelligent debate. Proof of this is underlined by the recent increased amount of media activity in europe, which in my opinion suggests they are feeling the heat. Also the move away from the gassing claims in some of their stories towards the 'holocaust by bullets' claims, which are even less likely to be true as the level of proof and evidence supplied is very thin.

This brings me back to Babi Yar and the like. The reports by the einsatzgruppen officers in their reports are pretty strong if true but the proof of these reports seems to be lacking. I have not seen proof that these are real and or haven't been doctored or falsified completely.
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Hektor » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:04 am)

SKcz wrote:Here is alleged report presented by holocaustresearchproject.org
...
Image
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... biyar.html

So the 33.000 plus info stems from a typed page that even doesn't have the pretense to be authenticated? Why didn't they just ask us to accept this on blind faith alone.
SKcz wrote:Image
"Jews at Babi Yar waiting to be murdered"
And how do they know that? Perhaps they are just waiting to be allowed to leave?

SKcz wrote:...
This prove they have no clue about these photos, they only pick what is suitable for their articles.

Which was standard procedure for Holocaust literature for a very long time. It does however seem that the pretense of accuracy has increased under Revisionist pressure. And that's illustrating even more impressive the absence of the pink elephant.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby SKcz » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:26 am)

MorrisT wrote:sK

However your point about the two photos, one from the vho and the other from heart, I am not sure I understand the relevance to the Germans self published OSR'S ?

No one from Vho or heart submitted OSRs to the SS high command...


Heart used vho´s/John C. Ball´s Babi Yar photo in their Babi Yar article without giving credit to revisionist source, that´s the whole point, I called it "interesting gem", that´s all.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby ganglere » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:31 am)

Greetings ladies and gentlemen!

I simply cannot resist the urge to attempt an analysis of said photo. Girls in danger! That’s a sure-fire grip to evoke emotion, at least from the chivalrous among us… Let’s see what the picture actually shows.

Number of girls = 20. Number of civilians = 5, of which 1 sitting in front. Number of soldiers = 1.

Number of weapons in the picture = 1.

Weapon in question = Mauser mod 98 standard Wehrmacht issue, single-shot capacity. Max number of rounds = 6.

Judging from this picture, the alleged perpetrators are seriously outnumbered by their victims.

Humbly yours,
Ganglere

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:52 am)

The only eyewitness testimony usually offered regarding Babi Yar is from some guy who is called "the truck driver, Hofer." We don't even have a first name for the person. Maybe Hofer was his first name.
The way I see it, if there had really been a huge massacre at Babi Yar, lots of people would have made statements including prominant Einsatzgruppen and Wehrmacht officials. All we have is this stand alone lie by some anonymous truck driver. We don't even know what he was doing there.


I watched what happened when the Jews - men, women, and children - arrived. The Ukrainians led them past a number of different places where one after the other they had to give up their luggage, then their coats, shoes and over-garments and also underwear. They also had to leave their valuables in a designated place. There was a special pile for each article of clothing. It all happened very quickly and anyone who hesitated was kicked or pushed by the Ukrainians to keep them moving....

There were only two marksmen carrying out the executions. One of them was working at one end of the ravine, the other at the other end. I saw these marksmen stand on the layers of corpses and shoot one after the other.

The moment one Jew had been killed, the marksman would walk across the bodies of the executed Jews to the next Jew, who had meanwhile lain down, and shoot him. It went on in this way uninterruptedly, with no distinction being made between men, women and children. The children were kept with their mothers and shot with them.

I only saw this scene briefly. When I got to the bottom of the ravine I was so shocked by the terrible sight that I could not bear to look for long. In the hollow I saw that there were already three rows of bodies lined up over a distance of about sixty meters. How many layers of bodies there were on top of each other I could not see. I was so astonished and dazed by the sight of the twitching, blood-smeared bodies that I could not register properly the details. In addition to the two marksmen there was a "packer" at either entrance to the ravine. These "packers" were Schutzpolizisten, whose job it was to lay the victim on top of the other corpses so that all the marksman had to do as he passed was fire a shot.

When the victims came along the paths to the ravine and at the last moment saw the terrible scene they cried out in terror. But at the very next moment they were being knocked over by the "packers" and made to lie down with the others. The next group of people could not see this terrible scene because it took place round a corner.

Most people put up a fight when they had to undress and there was a lot of screaming and shouting. The Ukrainians did not take any notice. They just drove them down as quickly as possible into the ravine through the entrances.

From the undressing area you could not make out the ravine, which was about 150 meters away from the first pile of clothes. A biting wind was blowing; it was very cold. The shots from the ravine could not be heard at the undressing area. That is why I think the Jews did not realize in time what lay ahead of them. I still wonder today why the Jews did not try and do something about it. Masses kept on coming from the city to this place, which they apparently entered unsuspectingly, still under the impression that they were being resettled


Why would a truck driver be at the bottom of the ravine? If you throw out Hofer's tale, there isn't much left to corroberate this silly myth.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby borjastick » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:17 am)

To be fair to MorrisT perhaps he can show what evidence he has which proves the Babi Yar shootings. Does he have photographs, film, credible witnesses? Or maybe he has some government documents recently released that shed further light which would stand up to scrutiny. If he is sure it happened what makes him think so?
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Haldan » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:00 pm)

borjastick wrote:To be fair to MorrisT perhaps he can show what evidence he has which proves the Babi Yar shootings. Does he have photographs, film, credible witnesses? Or maybe he has some government documents recently released that shed further light which would stand up to scrutiny. If he is sure it happened what makes him think so?


I'd settle with just a blip of forensic evidence along with names of the ones who are alleged to have been killed there, of course the names should be accompanied with evidence such as excavations of the alleged victims and observers from all sorts of nations ought to have been there to witness the whole procedure of acquiring the forensic data.
But all they have is photographs of cloths, 20+ women on a photograph and Hofer. Seriously, how can people believe in this after going through what is available?

These allegations can't hold water to a candle!
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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:19 pm)

The head of Einsatzgruppen C, Paul Blobel was one of only 4 of the 22 defendants at the Einsatzgruppen trials to be hung. One can be sure that Blobels alleged connection to Babi Yar - both as a so called perpetrator, and later, charged with organizing Operation 1005 to cremate the bodies - was the reason that he had to be done away with. Blobel's defense was that he wasn't at Babi Yar due to a so called nervous breakdown. Clearly, the Hoaxters did not wish to risk that Blobel might have eventually let the cat out of the bag.

Otto Ohlendorf used the defense that - since he believed the so called Nazi philosophical premise that jews and bolsheviks were aspects of a single entity - his so called murdering of tens of thousands of jew women and children was self defense. Ohlendorf even went so far as to state that jew children had to be shot for the future security of the Reich. http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... Vol-IV.pdf

One would think that Ohlendorf's defense fed right into the lies of the American/jew tribunal and its jew prosecutor Benny Ferencz, but they still hung him.

It is probable that the Hoaxters cut deals with most of the defendants, but Ohlendorf must have been tortured as he got no deal and his testimony oiled the Hoaxter machine. Of course, no one can be sure that the Hoaxters didn't tamper with the documented testimony.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby MorrisT » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:30 pm)

Steven Willow wrote:The head of Einsatzgruppen C, Paul Blobel was one of only 4 of the 22 defendents at the Einsatzgruppen trials to be hung. One can be sure that Blobels alleged connection to Babi Yar - both as a so called perpetrator, and later, charged with organizing Operation 1005 to cremate the bodies - was the reason that he had to be done away with. Blobel's defense was that he wasn't at Babi Yar due to a so called nervous breakdown. Clearly, the Hoaxters did not wish to risk that Blobel might have eventually let the cat out of the bag.

Otto Ohlendorf used the defense that - since he believed the so called Nazi philosophical premise that jews and bolsheviks were aspects of a single entity - his so called murdering of tens of thousands of jew women and children was self defense. Ohlendorf even went so far as to state that jew children had to be shot for the future security of the Reich. http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... Vol-IV.pdf

One would think that Ohlendorf's defense fed right into the lies of the American/jew tribunal and its jew prosecutor Benny Ferencz, but they still hung him.

It is probable that the Hoaxters cut deals with most of the defendents, but Ohlendorf must have been tortured as he got no deal and his testimony oiled the Hoaxter machine. Of course, no one can be sure that the Hoaxters didn't tamper with the documented testimony.



What need did the allies in the tribunal have to torture Ohlendorf or anyone else? They had all the proof they needed from the German self-admittance in the OSRs'.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Lohengrin » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:32 pm)

MorrisT:
"Lohengrin, According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.
According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?"


It even doesn't matter who wrote it. It is a gigantic Lie anyway. Nobody can shoot 33.771 people "sardinewise" in two days! That's simply impossible and BS, as I show in the math.

But, how come that after killing, counting, etc. of 33,771 people in Kiev only 2 days later this "situation report" was already in Berlin? It is dated there "2 Oktober, hm??? :shock: Yes, it's a Miracle, a Holocaust Miracle again!!

About the photographs of the women to be shot in Babi Yar, do you see that these photographs are NOT taken in Autumn (nearly November), but on a clear, sunny day, with trees full of leaves and people in Summer dresses?? The weather reports for Kiev for September 29-30 in '41 were heavy clouded with rain!!!!!!!! Goodbye to these "photographs" of Babi Yar, don't you think, MorrisT?

If I have some more time, and in case somebody is interested, I can give a great number of facts proving why those so-called "Ereignismeldungen" are an enormous fraud.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Steven Willow » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:59 pm)

Lohengrin wrote:
MorrisT:
"Lohengrin, According to the HEART website, its the German situation report that makes the 2-day claim.
According to the "Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppe C" of 7 October 1941, the Germans claimed that 33,771 Jews had been shot in Kiev on the 29 and 30 September 1941.

Were the Germans lying?"


It even doesn't matter who wrote it. It is a gigantic Lie anyway. Nobody can shoot 33.771 people "sardinewise" in two days! That's simply impossible and BS, as I show in the math.

But, how come that after killing, counting, etc. of 33,771 people in Kiev only 2 days later this "situation report" was already in Berlin? It is dated there "2 Oktober, hm??? :shock: Yes, it's a Miracle, a Holocaust Miracle again!!

About the photographs of the women to be shot in Babi Yar, do you see that these photographs are NOT taken in Autumn (nearly November), but on a clear, sunny day, with trees full of leaves and people in Summer dresses?? The weather reports for Kiev for September 29-30 in '41 were heavy clouded with rain!!!!!!!! Goodbye to these "photographs" of Babi Yar, don't you think, MorrisT?

If I have some more time, and in case somebody is interested, I can give a great number of facts proving why those so-called "Ereignismeldungen" are an enormous fraud.


I could not agree more. A fraud it is, these OSRs. And then the torture and insidious conspiracy by the Americans in their faked Einsatzgruppen trials with the scales of justice skewed and the innocent
Paul Blobel, who knew that no massacre had occurred at Babi Yar and that the jews of Kiev were never harmed, hung. But what of the 18 Einsatzgruppen defendants who did not suffer the rope? Their eternal silence must have required an ongoing system of threats, and their surviving relatives and descendants must still be under jew surveilance. What role did Benny Ferencz and Judge Mussmano have
in forcing German witnesses to avow the so called authenticity of the Einsatzgruppen documents? And the defendants themselves, santifying the jew lies while seeking helter skelter methods of exculpatory strategy. This conspiracy must have been vast, Lohengrin, as I am sure you can see.

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Re: Jewish groups protest ‘revisionist plaque’ at Babi Yar

Postby Callahan » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:19 am)

Hektor wrote:
SKcz wrote:Image
"Jews at Babi Yar waiting to be murdered"
And how do they know that? Perhaps they are just waiting to be allowed to leave?

But why would they appear to be undressed?


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