In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

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Hektor
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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Hektor » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:41 am)

MorrisT wrote:No it won't.
Revisionism at its core is a stupid concept. It serves no purpose other than to pacify the stunted ego's of racist idiots....
It's a passe past time. Only useful for forums such as this where revisionists are a living laboratory for the intellectuals, to test new theories on stupidity.

Great, I guess with this line of argument one can win any debate - as long one is on the side with more and bigger guns that is and media outlets that is.
I skip dealing with Revisionism here - You've been asked to clarify.
But let me say this: With World War II being more distant in the past and those having a stake in the story slowly dying of, I think the battleground will get more even for Revisionism. And that's all Revisionism needs to win: an even battleground.
Just imagine political neutrality towards Revisionism, neutral academia, media. Also even budgets and manpower. No persecution, harassment or ostracism against Revisionists. Do you really think the Holocaust would make it longer then a year?

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Fergi » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:47 am)

I have two more question for MorrisT.

MorrisT, I am investigating the diametrically opposed claims made by Krege and Colls regarding their respective GPR investigations of Treblinka, and ultimately, trying to find out which one of them is lying and what really lies inside the pits of Treblinka (if there are any pits).

Do you believe that my investigation and search for the truth in this matter serves no purpose and is evidence that I have a stunted ego and am a racist idiot?

Is it a stupid concept to point out the obvious fact that both Krege and Colls are guilty of malicious deceit and fraud?

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Raymond » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:49 am)

Well, I am afraid MorrisT is correct in saying it will not win. Revisionism is doomed because the vast majority of the world think as he does and will go on thinking as he does in spite of massive evidence to the contrary.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:11 pm)

There will never be a day where a result is announced: Holocaust 0 - Revisionism 6. But step by step, inch by inch we will prevail because we are right. Pure and simple. The scientific weight will win the day, coupled with common sense of the common man. Plus I suspect that the jews, mainly the Israelis, will screw up public opinion towards them by doing something mad. This could be another massacre of the Palestinians or a silly move against Iran that backfires. Or it could be that they just wear out the sympathy they have enjoyed thus far. Mood will turn against them and human instinct, to criticise and stereotype people will kick in. At that point someone in power will make a massive statement that the holocaust is in fact a holohoax. That is when the Jews will have plucked permanent defeat from the jaws of victory.

The problem with the holocaustians is they never know when to shut up. This is pressured by Israel that is so prejudiced and racist, driven by a huge dollop of unfairness to all of those around them. They simply do not know when to understand they have passed the line.
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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Haldan » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:42 pm)

Raymond wrote:Well, I am afraid MorrisT is correct in saying it will not win. Revisionism is doomed because the vast majority of the world think as he does and will go on thinking as he does in spite of massive evidence to the contrary.


But haven't we already won in a way? I mean we have the Holocaust Enforcers by the neck because they can't prove their assertions. Revisionist research will be archived by somebody and history will show that we we're right in not accepting their allegations at face value.
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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:13 pm)

Revisionism has nothing to win as long as defines itself the way it does today.
Historical science is not supposed to be a baseball match, it is not a win or lose game. The purpose of historical research is not to negate, but to have a clearer picture of what happened.
So basically, it depends on your personnal definition of "Revisionism".
- For French revisionists like Faurrisson, they call themselves "negationiste", their purpose is to prove a negation, which clearly doe not help to have a better picture of the past. They used to choose easy target, like russian propaganda, lunatic witness, to make a negative point. Yes they can make some point, but are not dealing with History but with propaganda.
Still they failed to give another explanation on what happened to the Jews. As far as history is concerned, they will lose because of their very logic in dealing with Historical research.
That is. they have to be very selective regarding the source. A witness telling all his fanily died is a liar, a witness saying the contrary tell the truth, a nazi document is a forgery as long as it cannot be used to make a revisionist point! etc. It's double standard at every step of their research. the best they can achieve is to put their own propaganda in place.

- Then you'll find the pure Nazi, the ones who deeply regrets germany did not won the war. No science, not even pseudo science required : the NSDAP were the good ones, the Jews and allies or other internationalists the bad ones. Some cannot imagine that such a good person as Adolf Hitler could have even think about doing anything bad, forgetting of course elements such as the "Nero's befehl", or the "night of the long knives", the stupid racial theories...Of course, these people won't see anything as they adhere to the principle that it is good for a nation to put every thinker is reeducation camp for as long as it takes to put them into shape.

So my conclusion is as long as ideology is so important in the debate, that is as long as we find pure antisemitism in any argument, as long as Isreal is quoted at every lines (even though Israel did not even exit at that time), and more important, as long as the double standard is in place, there is no chance of any victory whatever that means.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:02 pm)

Balsamo wrote:... For French revisionists like Faurrisson, they call themselves "negationiste", their purpose is to prove a negation, which clearly doe not help to have a better picture of the past. They used to choose easy target, like russian propaganda, lunatic witness, to make a negative point. Yes they can make some point, but are not dealing with History but with propaganda.
Still they failed to give another explanation on what happened to the Jews. As far as history is concerned, they will lose because of their very logic in dealing with Historical research.
That is. they have to be very selective regarding the source. A witness telling all his fanily died is a liar, a witness saying the contrary tell the truth, a nazi document is a forgery as long as it cannot be used to make a revisionist point! etc. It's double standard at every step of their research. the best they can achieve is to put their own propaganda in place.

- Then you'll find the pure Nazi, the ones who deeply regrets germany did not won the war. ...
So my conclusion is as long as ideology is so important in the debate, that is as long as we find pure antisemitism in any argument, as long as Isreal is quoted at every lines (even though Israel did not even exit at that time), and more important, as long as the double standard is in place, there is no chance of any victory whatever that means.


I'm glad to see some critical voices here again, keep it up! I think there is some substance in your double standards claim, but equally, both sides are making an argument. For example, the standard line selects testimony that supports gas chambers as a means of execution, but ignores that which supports steam chambers or electricity. As far as I know, it was revisionist scholarship that brought this to light. Plus, what you say is true of popular forums, but less so of scholarship like that of Mattogno, for example.

On your other points, I have never heard Robert Faurrison call himself a 'negationniste' but rather a 'revisionniste' - I think negationniste has a negative connotation in French much like 'denier' in English. At any rate, the term is used by his opponent Valerie Igounet. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

There are some 'Nazi' sympathisers who comment on revisionist forums, but of course without the holocaust, national socialism doesn't function as the symbol of evil that it has become over the last few decades. I suppose you are suggesting that whitewashing national socialism is part of the motive of revisionist research. I have to say, I've seen no evidence of that, except recently in the case of Vincent Reynouard in France, who is an interesting figure in his own right (see part 6 of his 'Holocauste' video). The dominant motives I have come across amongst revisionists are a dislike of atrocity propaganda being passed off as history and some way behind that a concern for the reputation of the German people on the part of those of a German background in North America.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Cloud » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:25 pm)

MorrisT wrote:No it won't.

Revisionism at its core is a stupid concept. It serves no purpose other than to pacify the stunted ego's of racist idiots....

It's a passe past time. Only useful for forums such as this where revisionists are a living laboratory for the intellectuals, to test new theories on stupidity.

Various models have been proposed to model the structure of an atom. Would it make sense to dogmatically cling to an old model when new evidence emerges that shows the model to be incorrect? No. A new model is proposed, and the textbooks are revised. A process of revision occurs.

Currently, there is a view called egalitarianism that posits that human beings are equal in ability and potential. This view is pervasive in academia and has supplanted hereditarianism (and many of our economic policies depend on it). However, it is not based in science - it is held in place only through dogma. The hereditarian viewpoint advanced by Darwin, Pearson, Galton, Catell, and others has been denounced ever since Holocaust propaganda made race based, scientific theories unpopular. The ideologically determined (such as those found here) fight tooth and nail to combat hereditarians either by shouting them down, destroying their careers, or inflicting violence upon them. But the results obtained by the hereditarians are not made any less true.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Hektor » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:34 pm)

Raymond wrote:Well, I am afraid MorrisT is correct in saying it will not win. Revisionism is doomed because the vast majority of the world think as he does and will go on thinking as he does in spite of massive evidence to the contrary.
It's true for the time being that most would fall on the MorrisT side of the scale. But that was true for many other things like geocentrism, witchcraft or the donation of Constantine. The emperor was naked even tough "all educated and influential people" in his kingdom "believed" otherwise. Revisionists only do the job of the boy that pointed out the nakedness. Ones the dust settles and more intellectuals start looking into the issue, you'll see that there will be some glasnost and perestroika on the Holocaust issue as well.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:35 pm)

What argues in favour of Raymond's point is that so much of history is what Henry Ford called "bunk". Every nation, every group has its historical myths that support its existence or its position in the world: the myth of the French Revolution, America's myths of the Colonial Revolt ;), the Pilgrim Fathers and the Taming of the West, Britain has Drake and the Armada, Nelson and Trafalgar, Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. There is usually a gaping gap between the myth and reality.

None of these is backed up by anything resembling the force of law and media and taboo that is behind the Holocaust myth.

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Moderator2 » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:35 pm)

For your information, MorrisT is permanently banned for poor language & ignoring warnings.
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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:21 am)

Balsamo suggests that revisionism is doomed to failure if we keep mentioning Israel and make other ant semitic remarks. I beg to differ. Israel is at the very heart of the so called holocaust due to the simple fact that Israel's very existence is because of the holocaust. It would not have come into being at that time, and possibly not for a long time after, had the holocaust not 'happened'.

Israel has perpetuated these myths and taken all the money from the banks and governments as payment for the 'crimes' against jews. The fact that Israel didn't exist until after the war seems to have been missed by many casual observers. They have stolen land and billions of dollars. Much of that money should have been passed on to genuine claimants but no the government of Israel trousered the lot.

It is a virtuous circle. The holocaust caused by anti semitic actions led to the foundation of Israel, which has subsequently killed and bombed the Palestinian people, stealing much of the land, thus leading to more anti semitic feeling around the world.

My father served in the British army and was there in Palestine from 1944-1947 and watched the tens of thousands of ships arrive, disgorging hundreds of thousands of jews from eastern europe.

One cannot make the holocaust claims and subsequent payments to the Israelis exclusive from each other.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:30 am)

Oh and while I've got my foot in the stirrup MorrisT is typical of believers who come here and then don't like what they find. He wouldn't play by the rules because he rejects the rules that would ask him to behave. This is typical of believers, they have no intention of listening to others and bringing some open minded perception to the debate. I am like most revisionists in that I was a believer but then as I grew up and questioned a few things in life, I had doubts about the holocaust. The repression by the system is like an insidious fog, it is all around. But if one has an open mind and having taken a step back one can see the honesty and decency of the revisionist position. MorrisT and his ilk won't do that, they have too much to lose...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby Moderator » 7 years 5 months ago (Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:01 pm)

I have pulled numerous very far off topic posts. Stay on topic, please.
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Re: In spite of the repression, revisionism will win

Postby ganglere » 7 years 5 months ago (Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:02 pm)

Good evening ladies and gentlemen!

(originally intended as an answer to Balsamo)

Naturally, Germany was not the sole victim, but it was not the sole perpetrator either! But this however, has been the lead motif of a quadrozillion books, articles, movies, plays and so on…

I mean, when did you see a portrayal of a German hero in a movie last? (No, I am not talking about operation Valkyrie).

As for Paul Rassinier, instead of writing nonsensical books like other former co-prisoners, he decided to write the truth, instead of vilifying the Germans. Needless to say, this did not make him a popular figure for the establishment , but that was never his goal.

Being virtually unknown today, save for the specialists, he never the less laid the foundation for holocaust revisionism, a path which prof. Faurisson only has followed.

Both of them could have chosen the easy way out, but none of them did, a fact for which we should be grateful.

When it comes to document criticism, it is not the case of “what you want to believe”, but whether or not the said document corresponds to reality. It is not, as the joke goes from my army days,” if the terrain doesn’t correspond to the map, it’s the map that has priority”.

When it comes to occupying neutral countries, only Germany was accused and convicted for such actions at NMT, and a blind eye was turned to the allies for doing and planning for the exact same thing, for example the British occupation of Norway (Operation Wilfred, and Plan R 4) the Soviet-British occupation of Iran et cetera.

As for historical revisionism in general, and the history of WWII in particular, it is in fact long overdue to demolish the prevailing “saints-versus-demons” narrative of these events.

Humbly yours,

Ganglere


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