Holocaust Demographics

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TheBlackRabbitofInlé
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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 7 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:40 pm)

Cloud wrote:I do not see how one obtains six million pairs of kidneys from that passage. I do see the references made to six hundred thousand pairs of kidneys and the ten people not registered, and I do know that the product of ten and six hundred thousand is six million, but I see nothing in the passage that suggests that these two numbers are to be multiplied. Unless someone can show it, the logical bridge to arrive at six million pairs of kidneys appears to be missing.


Good point, well made. There wasn't 6,000,000 pairs of kidneys, but 6,000,000 Jews.

600,000 pairs of kidneys = 600,000 sacrificial lambs

For each sacrificial lamb (600,000), there were 10 Jews who didn't bring a sacrificial lamb.

600,000 x 10 = 6,000,000

Strictly speaking the 600,000 Jews who had a sacrificial lamb should be added to the 6,000,000 who didn't. But the story is aggadahic, so there is no strictly speaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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borjastick
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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby borjastick » 7 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:35 am)

Jews shall not be counted is not so much about absolute numbers or the process of counting, but more about deceit and keeping us peasants away from the truth. They believe they are the children of God and as such above us and under no circumstances should we question them. Moreover we shouldn't even be allowed to question the jews' claims in any subject. Of course this is particularly helpful to them when they made the holocaust claims and this is borne out by the demographic claims of the 'disappeared'.

Do as we say or we will deliver the wrath of God on your house. Common sense, reason, evidence, science, practical reality shall have no input to the claims of the holocaust, for if they do the jews will be once more exposed as scheming liars. The arrogance of the holocaust claims is beyond belief but sadly most of Joe Public believe it. They lied in order to bully the west into perpetrating a colossal crime against the Palestinians and have been lying as a nation ever since. Take the current situation re the Iran nukes affair. At every opportunity the Israelis bring the holocaust card into the game. They believe everyone else is bound by the rules of the UN but never themselves.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Hektor
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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Hektor » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:32 am)

borjastick wrote:....Do as we say or we will deliver the wrath of God on your house. Common sense, reason, evidence, science, practical reality shall have no input to the claims of the holocaust, for if they do the jews will be once more exposed as scheming liars. The arrogance of the holocaust claims is beyond belief but sadly most of Joe Public believe it. They lied in order to bully the west into perpetrating a colossal crime against the Palestinians and have been lying as a nation ever since. Take the current situation re the Iran nukes affair. At every opportunity the Israelis bring the holocaust card into the game. They believe everyone else is bound by the rules of the UN but never themselves.
It's kind of chuzpa and the big lie technique in practice. Always interesting how things get revealed from people opening up personally:
!Erstens, ich freue und bedanke mich sehr auf solche Fragen. Die Antwort ist eigentlich ziemlich einfach, wenn man liberal und auf die Zukunft statt auf die Vergangenheit denkt. Als ein Enkel von 4 Großeltern, die alle Holocaust überlebende sind, ich versuche die Zukunft zu sehen aber gleichzeitig auch die Vergangenheit nicht zu vergessen.
http://www.friendasoldier.com/en/?p=3634

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:30 am)

The total number of Jews in Europe prior to WW2 is here not so relevant, and we rather need the total number in countries that came under German control.
Lohengrin might want to develop his valuable post here (on page 3) and have it published in some Revisionist journal eg the Barnes Review. He here cites 4.5 million as an upper limit (of Jews who ever lived in countries 'controlled by Hitler'), and is this maybe a bit high? Here are three sources that suggest just over three million:
1 Walter Sanning in The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, 1983 quoted 3.5 million, p.181.
2 SS General Reinhard Heydricht wrote to Foreign Secretary Ribbentrop about the ‘endlosung der Judenfrage,’ June 24, 1940 ‘The very size of the problem – and we have to consider that there are about three and a quarter million Jews in the territories now under German control – can no longer be solved by emigration; a territorial final solution will have to be found...’ Quoted in Staeglich, Auschwitz, p.30.
3 Estimate by J.P. Ney: ‘within Hitler’s sphere of influence during WW2 there had lived somewhere between 2.5 - 3 million Jews in total’ - 'The Wannsee Conference Protocol: Anatomy of a Fabrication’ by J.P. Ney in Dissecting the Holocaust, Ed Rudolf, 2003.*
..............................

Then, the total number of Jews who have received ‘compensation’ from Germany’s Finance Ministry is of great interest. Wilhelm Staeglich’s book Auchwitz, a Judge Looks at the Evidence (1986) said the Bonn Government had received ‘3,375,000 applications for restitution.’ (p.30)Then in 2008 in his court hearing Mr Kevin Kathner said:
During my readings, I happened to come across the number of reparation suits filed by alleged victims of ‘Holocaust.’ According to the Finance Ministry, this number comes to 5,360,710.’
He asked the Court: ‘By paying these 5,360,710 claims for idemnity, didn’t the Finance Ministry deny its own official version of ‘Holocaust?’’ (The Growing Self-Accusation Movement in Germany’ by Kevin Kather, Smith’s Report (online), January 2009; court hearing of November, 2008).

Both of these figures concern applications, and there is the Question, how can one infer the number of ‘Holo-survivors’ from them? Lohengrin found out that:
numbers from the German Bundesminister der Finanzen, given in a letter to mr. Wermer Laska on September 10th 1985, ("mindestens 6 bis 7 Millionen") regards to Leistungen an Israel, meaning of course, for Jewish survivors only! Indeed, not the German authorities decide who are "Jews", but the Israelian authorities do.

So he reckoned there had been 6 or 7 million, and they were mainly Jewish, to get compensation. ‘Hektor’ has made the reasonable inference that the applications equate to around four million persons, being accepted:
I think it is reasonable to assume that 80% of the applications are one-offs by one person or household. The other 20% would then be repeated applicants. Of course it may also be 50%. But still I think 60% of that number equates applicants, putting this at 4 million. Each applicant may represent a single person or a household.


Logically, this elusive number, of persons who have received cash from the German Finance Ministry as ‘compensation’ should be equate to the number of ‘Holocaust survivors’ (http://jppi.org.il/uploads/Jewish_Demog ... licies.pdf Jewish demographic policies, population Trends and options in israel and in the diaspora, Sergio DellaPergola 2011) This is defined as a threefold category, as (a) persons who were in the camps, (b) who fled or went into exile, eg those who left Nazi Germany in the 1930s, and (c) those who ‘suffered under the Nazis’ - the latter seems a bit of a catch-all term. (Thanks to ‘Kladderatach’ for explaining this vitally important concept.)

For the year 2001 this report gives 1092,000 still-alive total, with 213,200 in the first category. I would have thought this does not permit less than five million to have been still alive at the end of the War in 1945. (Dr Terry gets a smaller figure, ‘indeed nearly 4 million Jews surviving in Europe in 1945') You could argue that not all ‘Holo-survivors’ have claimed compensation, however the reverse could be more likely: if each Holo-survivor gets around twenty grand (a hundred billion DM paid out by Germany to five million people...) then that will be enough to stimulate bogus claims. So given the vast sums of the handouts, we are probably in a situation where everyone who could apply has done so, and careful documentary checking by the German Finance Ministry has been required to ensure the claims are ‘valid’ i.e falling within the threefold criteria.
.....................................

Whatever the number, the difference between it and the number of Jews ever living in Nazi-occupied territory is not great, indeed we seem to be getting a negative value! One would like to ask Kevin Kathner for possibly clarification here as he first put forward this rather decisive argument. (He went to jail for 8 months after making his statement in court).

Thus Dr Terry's argument cannot stand, Q.E.D.

* The References which Mr Ney gave for his figure of 2.5-3 million are: Hans Wahls, Zur Authentizität des 'Wannsee-Protokolls', Ingolstadt: Zeitgeschichtliche Forschungsstelle, 1987; Udo Walendy, "Die Wannsee-Konferenz vom 20.1.1942", in Historische Tatsachen no. 35, Vlotho: Verlag für Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, 1988

Queries:
Dr Terry’s has commented, that this one-million Holo-survivor figure ‘includes North African Jews,’ could someone explain this? Surely the German Government is not still paying out compensation to any Africans who were inconvenienced by Rommel’s desert campaign? Or, is it for any Jews who fled to Africa?
Did anyone get Dr T.’s point about ‘do not think that a 4:1 ratio is justified for Jewish KZ inmates in 1945 since they skewed extremely young. Overall, for Jews and non-Jews, 4:1 is probably right. For Jewish KZ inmates it would be 3:1 or lower. There was a very large number of teenaged Hungarian Jewish KZ inmates...??

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:24 am)

astro3 wrote:Dr Terry’s has commented, that this one-million Holo-survivor figure ‘includes North African Jews,’ could someone explain this?

I have read, though I can't tell you where, that "Holocaust survivor" now includes anyone alive in 1945 who lived at any time between 1933 and 1945 in any territory that came under German control, including French North Africa.

Googling produced this site. No idea how reliable the info is: http://www.sephardicgen.com/holocaust.HTM. It talks of internment in Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. It also refers to "Libyan deportees".

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:35 pm)

astro3 wrote:
"[Lohengrin] here cites 4.5 million as an upper limit (of Jews who ever lived in countries 'controlled by Hitler'), and is this maybe a bit high?"

Indeed, 4,5 Million sure is willingly too high. But the purpose of my article was first and foremost to refute the "Six Million" fraud for "Holocaust" addicted people, because some of them could try to create confusion between slightly different outcomes between revisionists and some rough estimations. My (too high) 4,5 Million number hopefully can stop this kind of fishing in trouble water.
As for Heydrich's "three and a quarter million Jews", this was June 1940, thus before Barbarossa, Greece, Yougoslavia, etc.
So, "4.5 Million in my article is to be seen as kind of insurance against untruthfull attacks of Holocaustians, not primarily as an accurate precise number (which is indeed lower).

astro3: "Logically, this elusive number, of persons who have received cash from the German Finance Ministry as ‘compensation’ should be equate to the number of ‘Holocaust survivors’"

I think the number of "Holocaust survivors" must be even considerably higher, because the German Government excluded all claims from behind the Iron Curtain !! Those are NOT in the numbers of receivers.

Obviously, there is a considerable fraud in all those applications, best proof is Netanyahu's recent claim that even now "More than 5 million Israelis still have a "right" for compensation." Notwithstanding all the fraud and surplus of applications above living Jews under German control, it is crystal clear that the number of living Jews in 1945 was no less than according to pre-war demographic numbers, minus at the utmost 1-1.5 million missing because of natural mortality, Jews died in combat, war-circumstances, known deaths in camps, people disappeared in the crowd after the War, etc., etc.

This not only makes the "Six Million" Numerus fixus absurd, it means ipso facto also the definite death-blow for the mythical "Gas Chambers".

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby jeffersonian » 7 years 1 month ago (Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:44 pm)

The opening question seems a bit stilted. The matter of the Holocaust is settled admirably by observing that there were no systematic killings of Jews anywhere, disregarding partisan warfare incidents in which the 'Jewishness' was secondary. If there were no systematic killings anywhere, the rest becomes imaginary numbers and population movements, both of which are special strengths of the Jews. Where did "nine or ten million" Jews go? How about, anywhere? everywhere? What 9 or 10 million? A million here, a million there, before you know it you're talking six million. Some Jews went to Palestine. Some Jews went to the USA. Some Jews went [put your country here]. Some Jews went to Germany to colonize the leftovers. Some Jews changed their names. Some Jews played dead. Some Jews went into statistics offices to make up the numbers. I think the thread question is intended as an end-run around a hard look at scientific evidence for the Holocaust, evidence which is entirely wanting.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Hektor » 7 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:38 am)

jeffersonian wrote:The opening question seems a bit stilted. The matter of the Holocaust is settled admirably by observing that there were no systematic killings of Jews anywhere, disregarding partisan warfare incidents in which the 'Jewishness' was secondary. If there were no systematic killings anywhere, the rest becomes imaginary numbers and population movements, both of which are special strengths of the Jews. Where did "nine or ten million" Jews go? How about, anywhere? everywhere? What 9 or 10 million?....

Kind of my reply. I point out that there were Jewish losses that were war related, but that this doesn't prove any intention to kill Jews, because they were Jewish. Sooner or letter the "but if the six millions weren't gassed, were have they gone to?" Type of argument comes up. That's fallacious for various reasons like assuming that it's proven six million are gone plus a non=sequitur that absence proofs killing in the Holocaust. It doesn't. And then there is the issue of Jewish emigration/immigration. Several countries seem to have had massive growth in Jewish populations although statistics are quite difficult to get.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby astro3 » 7 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:00 pm)

Here is one other estimate: Wilhelm Staeglich, 'Auschwitz.' (1986 English translation) averred, there had been ‘no more than 3,000,000’ Jews in total (p.31) in countries under Nazi control.
I agree this looks like being a very conclusive argument, if only someone could get a better estimate of the total number of Holo-survivors, in each of the three defined categories.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby Reviso » 4 years 9 months ago (Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:14 am)

I take leave to "up" this thread, only to say that a part of the demographic question is discussed on the new thread "Jews deported by Stalin in 1940-1942", here :
Jews deported by Stalin in 1940-1942
R.

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Re: Holocaust Demographics

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:50 am)

astro3 wrote:Here is one other estimate: Wilhelm Staeglich, 'Auschwitz.' (1986 English translation) averred, there had been ‘no more than 3,000,000’ Jews in total (p.31) in countries under Nazi control.
I agree this looks like being a very conclusive argument, if only someone could get a better estimate of the total number of Holo-survivors, in each of the three defined categories.

I have produced some estimates of holocaust survivors in 1945, arriving at figures of from 2.81 million to 4.47 million by projecting back from 2015 figures. I have placed some of my reasoning in the thread:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8061
Essentially, I take numbers of survivors in 2015 and divide using a factor of between 15% and 9.8% to get estimates for 1945. 15% was suggested by another contributor, 9.8% is my own calculation based on assumptions by year entered into an Excel worksheet, which I'm happy to describe and revise. However, Walter Sanning gives various figures in Dissolution of European Jewry for Jews in German occupied Europe, some much larger than this. This leaves large variations in numbers of people unaccounted for.
Any comments?


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