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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... st-SS.html
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
Homage to Catalin Haldan
I remember the Further glory blog commenting that the atrocity stories within sound more like jokes told by the Germans. It was anecdotal, but he said that what was said within sounded very much like the German version of comedy.
Also note these recordings were made in allied captivity. We know that the Allies made several other documentary forgeries, they could easily have done it with this.
- Do we have any evidence these tapes even exist?
- If they do, have we any evidence as to their provenance and authenticity?
- If they are genuine, how come they are only surfacing now after all these years?
- Use of captioned photos of unknown provenance. If genuine, they show soldiers and dead civilians. Unfortunately all too easy to find in any war. The troops in question were soldiers captured in France in 1940 or aircrew downed over England. The other pictures are clearly "scare" pictures, (well-used Warsaw ghetto photo, Dr Mengele -- yah-boo!) suggesting the alleged Holocaust and designed to trigger a programmed response, but have no relation to the prisoners in British custody.
- How many comparable statements are there in the thousands of hours alleged to have been recorded? By cherry-picking you can find an example of someone saying almost anything you set out to prove.
- Can we not find plenty of similar utterances from individuals in just about any war you care to name, for example, American soldiers in Vietnam? You certainly can in Hollywood films!
- I notice rape creeping into Holocaust and Nazi tales recently. Is this following a current "fashion" (for want of a more appropriate word)? I had always had the impression up to now that this was the one area in which the well-disciplined German forces were not considered to have been more guilty than other troops, far less than the Russians and probably less than the Americans and French.
- The rape and murder story is told with disapproval by the German cited. Anyway, I have read an almost identical story about British troops in Belgium capturing a female "spy".
- Is it indicative of the journalist's knowledge of his subject that he confuses Rudolf Hess and Rudolf Hoess?
- The manipulation is s so obvious that an experienced journalist cannot be unaware of what he is doing.
Encouraging, though are the top-rated comments;
Let us not forget the barbaric slave trade which involved millions of Africans being sent to countries like America, Brazil and the Caribbean and who were often beaten and worked to death. Let us not forget Cyprus in 1974. Let us not forget the Armenian genocide. Let us not forget Cambodia and pol pot. Let us not forget Rwanda. Let us not forget South Sudan. Let us not forget Tibet. Let us not forget the Iraqi Kurds. Let us not forget Biafra. Let us not forget the Balkan war. Let us not forget Syria. Let us never forget the millions of victims of war, hate and genocide.
- Jackie, London, United Kingdom, 22/9/2012 6:25
Click to rate Rating 985
I suspect psychologists would attribute such comments and behavoir to being raised into a brutal regime, and joking etc. are so called coping mechanisms and boasting as well as exaggeration perhaps typical amongst competitive soldiers. In truth people can just be evil.
- Richard, Midi Pyrénées, France, 22/9/2012 5:56
Click to rate Rating 876
What a load of rubbish.Soldiers of all countries got desensitised to war and did these things, not just the German army like this article is suggesting. Did you know for example that TWO MILLION German POW's died at the hands of the allies in the war - that is, after surrendering? Eisenhower had camps in Germany and Belgium where thousands were left in the open, without no shelter and food and left to rot and starve in the cold and rain. Typically out of any 100,000 soldiers captured by the Russians, only 4,000 odd made it home in the 50's and 60's.........they were worked to the bone in salt mines. The US and British POW camps were so bad they were described by a British MP as being near to "Belsen conditions". So please DM, dont go talking to me about how bad the SS and common German soldiers were...I have read the books, done my research and know the FACTS and not spin and rubbish as described on here.
- Anon_Wales, Wales, United Kingdom, 22/9/2012 6:37
Click to rate Rating 746
We only see distilled versions of what actually happened in our history books, but in a war, untold and unthinkable brutalities happened every second , and no one ever will ever know the real stories of millions of innocent people killed in the world wars - and how many of the perpetrators got away scot free, because the sheer magnitude of deaths in a period of total chaos made it an an impossible task to do so. .
- Matt, Leamington Spa, United Kingdom, 22/9/2012 3:23
Click to rate Rating 590
Mkk wrote:I remember the Further glory blog commenting that the atrocity stories within sound more like jokes told by the Germans. It was anecdotal, but he said that what was said within sounded very much like the German version of comedy.
Well, if this isn't a joke, I don't know what is:
Zotlöterer: 'I shot a Frenchman from behind. He was riding a bicycle.'
Weber: 'At close range?'
Heuser: 'Did he want to take you prisoner?'
Zotlöterer: 'Nonsense. I wanted the bicycle.'
Haldan wrote:Are these recordings available for perusal online? Or are they only available to folks who have their snout stuck in archives all day long?
I recall such "recordings" being around for quite a while. This has been commented on in a pc book as well:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/b ... 42983.html
Note what they remark themselves:
Die Räume, in denen sich die Gefangenen aufhielten, wurden „verwanzt“, die interessant erscheinenden Äußerungen aufgezeichnet, anschließend verschriftlicht und auf diese Weise eine Sammlung von Quellen angelegt, die ihresgleichen sucht. Das Erstaunliche ist eigentlich, dass diese Quellen nicht schon früher herangezogen und genutzt worden sind.
But no releases only second hand information printed in some pony news-paper. And how did those recordings come into being? And why would one do eavesdropping on 13.000 (!) prisoners. Also look at the photos; two or three of them seem to be fake.
As for Soenke Neitzel. I got the following page as well:
Note the "bewilligte Mittel", which is the budget they get for projects + their own salary which is around 5000 Euros per month.
Fake.Picture of the 3 people in front photo-shopped on top of the original picture of German soldiers.
Watch the hair of the woman in the middle and the man to the left to catch this.
Watch this picture and don't worry about the information what SHOULD you see
"'First we hit her in the t**s with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet.
Then we f***** her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her.
'Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.'
'And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing.'"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... st-SS.html
And then she revived and said:"The last three guys-do it again..."
Kingfisher sums it up nicely.
These recordings are no doubt not available for review.
The 'pictures' are so amateurishly doctored as to be laughable. It's a dead giveaway when shadows of soldiers do not match the shadows of the others that have been pasted in.
Just another Jewish supremacist mandated story in order to keep the money flowing from Germany. "There's no business like shoah business".
This is too easy.
Hannover wrote:One cannot help but mention that in the British intercepts of German communications there is zero mention of gas chambers, exterminatiion of Jews, or anything 'holocaust' at all. But yet after all these years an unreviewable 'recording' surfaces embellished with The Daily Mail's use of altered photos.
That's right, nobody knew about it. Then some new something about it, but wait this something is just rumors or referring to anti-Partisan activities. Oh yes, let's equal the two.
But let's dig further for the original recordings. Neitzel should know a thing or two, perhaps one can approach him.
'The bogus Bruns document'
- 42,000 allegedly murdered & buried in one place, but no physical/forensic evidence. Why don't they get a shovel and find the evidence? The answer is obvious.
- And ofcourse they just stood around and merrily waited to be shot,
"here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step - a queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on."
- another quote:
"I said: "FÜHRER's orders?" "Yes", whereupon he showed me his orders." - Okay, let's see them.
- Irving himself makes a point, I quote:
"Werner Altemeyer, the 21-year-old Stabsleiter (chief of staff) attached to the Nazi mayor of Riga, trained at the Nazi Ordensburg at Crössinsee/Pommern. Remarkable for the general reader, perhaps, the fact that a 21-year-old should have had the authority to execute this crime in the name of the German people."
- Right, a 21 yr. old chief of staff making such decisions?
- But then again, what decision? There was, according to the text of the alleged statements, a Fuehrer order which would have required no decision, I quote:
"He said: "Well, they're to be shot in accordance with the Fuehrer's orders! I said: "FÜHRER's orders?" "Yes", whereupon he showed me his orders."
- But wait! There is no order, since a way of informing Hitler must be figured out, I quote:
"We didn't quite know how to tell the Fuehrer. We'd better do it through CANARIS." CANARIS had the unsavoury task of waiting for the favourable moment to give the FÜHRER certain gentle hints. A fortnight later I visited the Oberbürgermeister or whatever he was called then, concerning some other business. ALTENMEYER(?) triumphantly showed me: "Here is an order, just issued, prohibiting mass-shootings on that scale from taking place in future. They are to be carried out more discreetly."
- The entire things sounds ridiculous on the face of it. Forgetting for the moment that the alleged text doesn't make sense, we are stuck again with text allegedly taken from an original source (the actual recording); but we have not seen that original source, only a claim that a tape exists....somewhere.
- This sham 'document' was found in British archives, which means someone put it there. I don't need to say what that implies.
We must apply the same crime solving techniques to things 'holocaustian' (where logic, science, and rational thought seem to have been suspended) as we would for other alleged crimes.
'Bruns admits confession was fake'
'recorded conversations not - 'pumpkins/music directors''
The actual recording that the British allege has never been produced...only alleged text
We have the "Director of Music of the 'Leibstandarte" who is said to have gone around shooting civilians? Sponeck says they 'dragged him off his bandwagon.....' This is beyond laughable, it's just bizarre and probably doesn't even merit mentioning except there are those will believe anything about the Germans in WWII..the 'Director of Music'....oh, please.
Sponeck & Sattler allegedly bemoan the SS courts while ignoring the fact the the SS courts did in fact prosecute men for improper behaviour.
The actual recording that the British allege has never been produced...only alleged text.
Neuffer allegedly said, "In 1941 the Führer issued an order to the effect that as few Russian prisoners as possible were to be left alive and as many as possible killed."
But no such order has ever been produced. We do know that Hitler ordered the execution of Kommisars and Communist functionaries (as the Bolsheviks ordered the executions of SS), but not regular Russian POWs.
Reimann supposedly said that POWs were suffocated in cattle cars. Problem, cattle cars are ventilated...for cattle to breath. The fraud betrays itself when Reimann allegedly said "the prisoners peered out of the narrow openings.." so, how could they suffocate?
Then we supposedly have 'children throwing pumpkins' into a closed cattle car....the world's smallest pumpkins I presume.
'yet another bogus conversation, this one about 'gassings'
- We allegedly have Himmler ordering gassings in April '45 while the standard storyline says that he ordered gassings stopped ca. November '44...of course, neither order has ever been found
- the actual recordings that the British allege have never been produced...only alleged text
- the Americans occupied the site on April 13. There were no reports of an exploded cave with gassed Russians inside.
So much for the veracity of the "recordings". This is much too easy.
On Christmas Day 1932 the British Broadcasting Corporation first used a tape recorder for their broadcasts. The device used was a Marconi-Stille recorder, a huge tape machine which used steel razor tape 3 mm wide and 0.08 mm thick. In order to reproduce the higher audio frequencies it was necessary to run the tape at 1500 millimetres per second past the recording and reproducing heads. This meant that the length of tape required for a half-hour programme was nearly 3 kilometres and a full reel weighed 25 kg.
By the mid 1930s, the C. Lorenz company in Germany had developed a steel tape recorder that was briefly popular with European telephone companies and German radio networks. In 1938, Begun left Germany and joined the Brush Development Company in the United States, where work continued but attracted little attention until the late 1940s when the company released the very first commercial tape recorder in 1946...
So I looked again:
Secret recordings made by British intelligence during the Second World War have revealed for the first time the horrific atrocities carried out by everyday German soldiers...
Transcripts taken from hidden microphones on prisoners of war have been collated for the disturbing book...
So despite the use of the word "recordings" here and elsewhere in the article, there were none: just transcripts taken by stenographers. Of course Britain in 1940 was crawling with fluent German-speaking stenographers capable of taking down colloquial speech in a variety of regional dialects or accents from poor-quality, doubtless echoing, hidden microphone links in real time at natural speed and for whom no better use could be found.
Kingfisher wrote:So despite the use of the word "recordings" here and elsewhere in the article, there were none: just transcripts taken by stenographers.
Actually, according to a previous article in the Mail Online, the conversations were recorded on "gramophone discs":
Between 1939 and 1945, no fewer than 10,191 German and 567 Italian prisoners passed through Trent Park and its two related POW listening centres. Some of the conversations, originally recorded on gramophone discs, are only half a page in length; the longest is 22 pages.
The article goes back to July 2007, and is one of four (at least) that the Mail Online has done pushing this particular bit of greuel propaganda in the last five years:
July 2007 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... caust.html
April 2011 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... d-fun.html
last week http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-war.html
this week http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... st-SS.html
So yeah, one wonders what the agenda is all right.
At any rate, the question of recording medium is a curious one. According to Soenke Neitzel, in his prolog to the German edition of "Soldaten" (an epub copy of the book is available for viewing here), the recordings were actually made on "wax discs":
Wieder und wieder fuhr ich fortan nach London und begann zu begreifen, worauf ich eigentlich gestoßen war: Die Briten hatten während des gesamten Krieges Tausende deutsche und einige hundert italienische Gefangene systematisch abgehört, besonders interessant erscheinende Gesprächspassagen auf Wachsplatten aufgenommen und davon Abschriften angefertigt. Sämtliche Protokolle hatten den Krieg überdauert und waren 1996 freigegeben worden. In den folgenden Jahren hat aber niemand die Bedeutung dieser Quellen erkannt – unentdeckt schlummerten sie in den Magazinregalen vor sich hin.
Neitzel's logic seems a little shaky here: "Throughout the war, the British had systematically eavesdropped on thousands of German and some hundreds of Italian prisoners, recorded especially interesting-seeming passages of their conversations on wax discs [Wachsplatten] and then prepared transcripts from them." But how did the British know which passages of the conversations would be "especially interesting-seeming" (besonders interessant erscheinende) until they heard them? And wouldn't it be a little late to decide to turn on the recording equipment then?
Well, I suppose they could have had someone always listening in, ready to push the "record" button. And there probably would have been a lot of downtime too with no talking at all, so they could have just switched things on when the conversation really got going. But in that case there must have been a LOT of those records. What happened to them?
Neitzel says only that the protocols (i.e., transcripts) "survived the war" (Sämtliche Protokolle hatten den Krieg überdauert), but nothing more about the mysterious "wax discs." To be fair, it really might be something of a miracle for wax discs to have survived, intact and in usable condition, all the way from 1945. But then, that just raises more questions really . . .
I'm hardly an expert in gramophone technology, but as I understand it, a wax master could only be used for recording: the recording stylus would cut the wax as the disc turned, making an analog record of the sound signal from the microphone. If you tried to play the master disc back, however, the playback stylus itself would cut the wax as it moved over it, and so effectively destroy the copy after one playing. From Wikipedia:
Instantaneous discs are so called because they can be played immediately after recording without any further processing, unlike the delicate wax master discs which had to be plated and replicated as pressings before they could be played non-destructively.
As the bit about "Instantaneous discs" implies, apparently there was technology available at the time for making a permanent, playable disc on the first go, using aluminum or lacquer or even glass for the medium. And really, such methods would make a lot more sense than using wax masters which have to be painstakingly electroplated to create a negative, and then repressed on vinyl before they can even be listened to without wrecking the recording.
But then, that's not what Neitzel says, is it. That's our Soenke, putting the splat into Wachsplatt since 1945!
None of this "proves" anything, of course. It could be that Neitzel is simply wrong about the recording medium. (But then he's the "expert," right?) In the absence of other infomation about the matter, my guess would be that when Neitzel asked about where the original recordings had disappeared to, he was told that they had been made on "wax discs" and that they thus would not have survived until now. Seems to make sense . . . until you think about it.
Using wax masters actually might have been an economical choice for the British, since no doubt many "interesting-seeming passages" in the prisoners' conversations turned out to be pretty dull after all. In other words, the "eavesdroppers" could have switched on their recording equipment when a conversation started, but if they decided it wasn't worth preserving, they could have just melted that disc down again afterwards. On the other hand, if they did hear something really juicy, they could have saved the disc and sent it to be processed for pressing so that it could be played back later for transcription. Saves time and effort, right?
But then, anything that actually was preserved and played back for transcription must have been pressed on vinyl. Even if the wax masters are gone, the vinyl should remain. Tens of thousands of pages worth of transcriptions--that's a lot of LPs. Where are they now?
-- D. Eckart Der Bolschewismus von Moses bis Lenin, "Er"
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