Churchill quote: is it genuine?

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Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:58 am)

Not strictly Holocaust, but definitely Revisionism. It has some relevance to the H as a partial explanation of the need to generate anti-German hatred.

The following is often quoted on the Web, but as we know, not everything on the Internet is necessarily accurate. If the quote is valid, it is very strong evidence in support of a Revisionist position on the War.

You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless of whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.. --Winston Churchill

The source usually given is Emrys Hughes, Winston Churchill - His Career in War and Peace, p. 145, and one site gives a further "source" quoted as per: Adrian Preissinger, Von Sachsenhausen bis Buchenwald, p. 23.

I don't have access to a copy of Hughes's book, but a search on Google Books for extracts from the quote on page 145, or indeed the entire book, is unsuccessful, and even if it is there, what is the value of Hughes's source?

When is Churchill alleged to have said this? To whom and in what context?

The quote is found, unsurprisingly, mainly on Revisionist or conspiracy sites. It is beginning to look to me as though they have just been quoting each other.

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Goethe » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:37 am)

These is also this quote:
The first is from the Illustrated Sunday Herald - 8th February 1920:

“The part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews ... is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from Jewish leaders ... The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in (Hungary and Germany, especially Bavaria).

Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing. The fact that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their universal hostility has tended more and more to associate the Jewish race in Russia with the villainies which are now being perpetrated”.
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:29 pm)

Yes. That one is quite well-known, Goethe. But my post is not asking for more quotes, but to know whether this specific one is genuine.

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:52 pm)

Kingfisher,

The quote is used by Mark Turley...Churchill is supposed to have said that in 1940...
I will have a look in "Human Smoke" to see if it is in there...At least baker gives the sources from all quotes...

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Mkk » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:40 pm)

Not strictly Holocaust, but definitely Revisionism.

I sometimes wish this forum could have a section devoted to non-Holocaust historical revisionism. This is one of the only good forums on the web where people can openly debate the history of WW2. Certainly there are a handful of non-Holocaust allegations against the Nazis that are seemingly exaggerated, out of context or simply untrue.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Heimwehr » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 pm)

Mkk wrote:I sometimes wish this forum could have a section devoted to non-Holocaust historical revisionism. This is one of the only good forums on the web where people can openly debate the history of WW2. Certainly there are a handful of non-Holocaust allegations against the Nazis that are seemingly exaggerated, out of context or simply untrue.


I fully support a separate section on WW2 (and WW1) topics. In our forum logo it says "Historical Revisionism Discussion". There is no better place than here, civilized with rules and respect.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Moderator » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:15 pm)

Heimwehr wrote:
Mkk wrote:I sometimes wish this forum could have a section devoted to non-Holocaust historical revisionism. This is one of the only good forums on the web where people can openly debate the history of WW2. Certainly there are a handful of non-Holocaust allegations against the Nazis that are seemingly exaggerated, out of context or simply untrue.


I fully support a separate section on WW2 (and WW1) topics. In our forum logo it says "Historical Revisionism Discussion". There is no better place than here, civilized with rules and respect.


Gents,
I understand your points. But we are part of CODOH, Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust. Surely there are other places with basic guidelines for those additional interests. PM me if you have additional comments. Thanks.
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Cloud » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:06 pm)

Heimwehr wrote:I fully support a separate section on WW2 (and WW1) topics. In our forum logo it says "Historical Revisionism Discussion". There is no better place than here, civilized with rules and respect.

I was about to mention this earlier, but you did it first. Perhaps the sign should instead read, "'Holocaust' Discussion."

The European racialist or nationalist forums sometimes have a section for historical revisionism. But given the nature of those forums, I seriously doubt that their members will be 100% objective when it comes to any historical matters concerning Europe. Moreover, frequent postings of "Historical leader X was a crypto jew" and "Y was a Khazar" make their entire communities appear mentally unstable.

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Christopher Louis » 6 years 4 months ago (Tue May 21, 2013 5:33 am)

The quote in question appears on page 15 in From Nuremburg to Nineveh by Mark Turley (Vandal Publications. Sept. 2008).
According to the citation given for it there, it is supposed to be from Winston Churchill: His Career in War and Peace, Pg. 45 (not p.145)
(1st published in 1950) by Emrys Hughes"
You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism,
but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all,
regardless of whether it is in the hands of Hitler of a Jesuit priest.
"

But I could not find such a quote using google books.
On the contrary, it has this there: "Did he [Churchill] campaign during these years for a policy towards Germany which would have prevented Hitler? Or was he too obsessed by his hatred of Russia and nightmares about India to realise the imortance of what was happening in Germany..."

Here are two others though:
"Germany is getting too strong. We've got to smash her."
- Winston Churchill speaking during a private lunch in 1936.

Reminiscenses in 1961 of General Robert E. Wood.
source: World War II. By Carl J. Schneider, Dorothy Schneider. Page 15.


"I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war;
what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau
."
- Winston Churchill
source: The Barnes Review, Volume 5. Page 30. 1999.
[/quote]

Taken from: http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blogspot.se/2010/12/churchills-hatred-for-german-people.html?zx=f4c71093f95d0f0f
Last edited by Christopher Louis on Tue May 21, 2013 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 4 months ago (Tue May 21, 2013 6:55 am)

Thank you very much, Christopher Louis. I went back to Google Books, but now I can't access more than one page of that book.

There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that for Churchill it was as much a war against Germany as against the NS regime. I'm just looking for confirmation of the validity of the quotations.

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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby hermod » 6 years 4 months ago (Tue May 21, 2013 7:12 pm)

The people who say that quote is fake argue that the real title of that book is "Winston Churchill. British Bulldog: His Career in War and Peace" and that that quote is nowhere to be found in that book. That's partly true. Those people ignore that "Winston Churchill. British Bulldog: His Career in War and Peace" is the title of the American edition of the book "Winston Churchill in War and Peace". Not surprising. Only an American edition would be entitled "The British Bulldog". A British author as Emrys Hughes would naturally have called Churchill "The Bulldog", not "The British Bulldog". The American edition was published in 1955 and the British edition was published in 1950. The American edition was an edited version of that book and it's not suprising that amazing quote was suppressed for the American readers. How many Americans could have faced that inconvenient truth (the truth that WW2 was fought to destroy the too strong German competitor and its innovative successful new form of economy, and not to liberate the people from the alleged 'fascist threat') only 10 years after the end of WW2? :wink:

Winston Churchill: British bulldog : his career in war and peace

Year: 1955

Person: Emrys Hughes

Edition: [First American ed.]

"Some of the material in this book was published in Great Britain in 1950 under the title 'Winston Churchill in war and peace.'; mit Bildn. u. biogr. Notiz d. Verf.

http://www.econbiz.de/en/search/detaile ... no_cache=1


Image
British edition (1950)

Image
American edition (1955)

The British edition of that book can be bought for $40.00 here: http://www.churchillbooks.com/detail.cf ... mber=12939

I don't own that book but it would be great if somebody owning it could scan the page with that quote and post it on the internet. That would end the controversy about that quote once and for all.

The British edition (1950) - "Winston Churchill in war and peace" - is quoted in several other books and not only for that quote (see examples below).

http://books.google.be/books?id=Lz8vNz4 ... 22&f=false

http://books.google.be/books?id=w3EhAAA ... CDkQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.be/books?id=PMu4AAA ... CD0Q6AEwAw

http://books.google.be/books?id=5Ti7AAA ... EQ6AEwATgK

http://books.google.be/books?id=OUwiAQA ... CFMQ6AEwCA

http://books.google.be/books?id=0qSEAAA ... CFgQ6AEwCQ

http://books.google.be/books?id=rffkAAA ... CEoQ6AEwBg

http://books.google.be/books?id=6GmxAAA ... CE4Q6AEwBw
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Christopher Louis » 6 years 4 months ago (Wed May 22, 2013 3:49 am)

A problem for the authenticity of this quote from the book by Hughes appears to be that the google book searches you have provided for the quote do not even appear to agree on what page it allegedly occurs.

And if you do a seacrh within the cited 1950 publication using any of the key words such as Hitler, or Jesuit or priest or smashed or smash, etc., etc., the quote can not be found.
http://books.google.se/books?id=1jtLAAAAMAAJ&q=Winston+Churchill+in+war+and+peace&dq=Winston+Churchill+in+war+and+peace&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=zIWcUeq9GNPS4QS19IDwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA

If anyone is interested in buying a cheaper version of the book it exists here for US$ 13.31 plus postage. http://www.abebooks.com/Winston-Churchill-Peace-Emrys-Hughes-Unity/10050021786/bd
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu May 23, 2013 1:15 am)

Churchill quote: is it genuine?


No it's not. It's a fake quote.

Code: Select all

First off, I used Google Book's Snippet View to obtain the images of the pages linked below. Snippet View is a very useful tool for checking hard to come by books, if you've a little patience and perseverance. It does restrict you from viewing a single 'snippet view' of each page, but a Google book search allows you to find out what the text is anyway.


I've checked pages 45 and 145 of Emry Hughes' Winston Churchill In War and Peace (1950, London, Unity), and an online version of the "British Bulldog" edition from 1955 http://tmh.floonet.net/pdf/BritishBulldog.pdf

The alleged quote does not appear on either page 45 nor 145 of Hughes' original 1950 edition, and it doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the 1955 "British Bulldog" edition. Although there are a few interesting Churchill quotes on pp.145-146 of the 1955 edition:

"Germany is getting too strong and we must smash her."

"I have only one purpose, the destruction of Hitler, and my life is much simplified thereby."

"To achieve the extirpation of Nazi tyranny there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go."

Hughes comments on the final quote:
The bombing of Dresden in February, 1945, bore this out, even though it was not in the least needed to unseat Hitler, whose situation had become hopeless before this time. (p.146)



German author Adrian Preissinger falsely attributed the "You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism" quote to Churchill in his 1991 book Von Sachsenhausen bis Buchenwald: Todesfabriken der Kommunisten and cited as his source: Hughes' "Winston Churchill — His Career in War and Peace' auf S. 145". In the 1994 English translation of the same book, Preissinger makes the same claim and cites the same Hughes book, only changing the page no. to 45.

It's probable that Preissinger took the quote and the name Emerys Hughes from German revisionist Franz Josef Scheidl's publication which seems to date to 1967 or 1968. Schedil wrote:
In der ganzen tausendjährigen Geschichte der Beziehungen zwischen Deutschland und England gab es keine für die Deutschen verhänignisvollere Gestalt, keine Person, die furchtbareres Verderben über Deutschland und Europa brachte, als Winston Churchill. Entgegen der Auffassung, die das Telegramm zum Ausdruck bringt, war Churchill war Churchill kein Staatsmann.[1] er war ausschließlich ein ehrgeiziger, sehr beschränkter, sturer und karrieresüchtiger politischer Pokerspieler. Ursprünglich war er Deutschland nicht feindlich gesinnt. Er wurde erst zum wütenden Gegner Deutschlands, als er erkannte, daß Gegnerschaft gegen Deutschland einen Politiker in England populär machte und politische Karriere versprach, ohne daß man dazu besonderer Qualitäten und Kenntnisse bedurfte, deren Winston Churchill — nach det Meinung vieler seiner Landsleute und Zeitgenossen — in weitem Maße ermangelt. Es ist der Verdienst Roosevelts und Churchills, Europa an den Rand der Vernichtung gebracht und die Bolschewiken zu einer Weltmacht gemacht zu haben.

Es ist ein krasser Widerspruch zur historischen Wahrheit, daß Winston Churchill seine Tatkraft zum Schutze der Freiheit und zur Aufrechterhaltung des Friedens wirken ließ. Er war einer der Hauptdränger zum Zweiten Weltkriege; er ließ auch die Weltöffentlichkeit nicht im geringsten Zweifel, daß für ihn der Krieg gegen Deutschland nicht etwa ein Krieg für die Freiheit, nicht etwa ein Krieg gegen den Nationalsozialismus, sondern ein rein englischer Krieg war, der ausschließlich um englischer Interessen willen geführt wurde.

In einer Rundfunkansprache erklärte er ausdrücklich: „Dieser Krieg ist ein englischer Krieg und sein Ziel ist die Vernichtung Deutschlands. "

Den Agenten des Widerstandes in der Schweiz wurde ausdrücklich und unmißverständlich erklärt (zitiert nach Peter Kleist „Auch du warst dabei" ) : „Sie müssen sich klar darüber sein, daß dieser Krieg nicht gegen Hitler oder den Nationalsozialismus geht, sondern gegen die Kraft des deutschen Volkes, die man für immer zerschlagen will, gleichgültig, ob sie in den Händen Hitlers oder eines Jesuitenpaters liegt."

[1] (footnote shown below)
Image


Scheidl doesn't claim this is a Churchill quote, but states that is what the German (anti-Nazi) resistance in Switzerland believed.

Scheidl cites his source within the main text, the (1953, I believe: Deutsche National Bibliothek) book Auch Du warst dabei by former-aid to Ribbentropp, Peter Kleist.

Kleist wrote:

So schrankenlos tobte die entfesselte Gewalt, daß die Gegner Deutschlands selbst auf die Kriegslist eines Scheinangebotes verzichteten, mit welchem sie die Moral des deutschen Volkes lähmen könnten.

Der Gedanke an Wilsons 14 Punkte war geradezu ein Alpdruck für Roosevelt, der in der Bestrafung der Aggressoren durch keine Rücksicht gebunden sein wollte. Vielleicht waren sich die Gegner im klaren darüber, daß jener schmähliche Betrug von 1918 nicht mit Erfolg wiederholt werden könnte: »Jagt euren bösen Kaiser weg, und ihr habt einen Frieden ohne Annexionen und Kontributionen, einen Frieden in Ehre und Freiheit«, das war noch zu gut in aller Ohren, und in aller Erinnerung noch zu gut, was dann folgte.

Die Kundschafter kamen ohne Ergebnis heim von ihren Reisen. Einem von ihnen hat man draußen gesagt: »Sie müssen sich klar darüber sein, daß dieser Krieg nicht gegen Hitler oder den Nationalsozialismus geht, sondern gegen die Kraft des deutschen Volkes, die man für immer zerschlagen will, gleichgültig, ob sie in den Händen Hitlers oder eines Jesuitenpaters liegt.«

The quote also appears in this 1968 book by Kleist.

So in reality, this is not a Churchill quote, but a quote attributed to an unidentified member of the German resistance by a former Nazi.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby Reinhard » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu May 23, 2013 12:12 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:Thank you very much, Christopher Louis. I went back to Google Books, but now I can't access more than one page of that book.

There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that for Churchill it was as much a war against Germany as against the NS regime. I'm just looking for confirmation of the validity of the quotations.


There is another quotation of Churchill's from John Charmley's biography »Churchill. The End of Glory« on page 410:

»Germany [...] would give no quarter. They would be reduced to the status of vassals and slaves for ever.«

I have often heard that this quotation refers to the Germans. I can't prove this from Google books, because the passage presented there is too short to find out:

Image

Perhaps someone can clear this up.
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Re: Churchill quote: is it genuine?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu May 23, 2013 3:14 pm)

Reinhard wrote:There is another quotation of Churchill's from John Charmley's biography »Churchill. The End of Glory« on page 410:

»Germany [...] would give no quarter. They would be reduced to the status of vasalls and slaves for ever.«

I have often heared that this quotation means the Germans. I can't prove this from Google books, because the passage presented there is too short to find out:


By 'they', Churchill meant the British, in the event of a German invasion.

The preview on Amazon often comes in handy, and is where I got the images below of Charmley's Churchill biography. There's a couple of other references to Churchill threatening the Cabinet, the French or Roosevelt, that Britain would become a vassal state of Germany.

Just click the Look Inside feature and then use the 'Search Inside This Book' for 'vassal' or other key words.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Churchill-The-Glory-Political-Biography/dp/0571249035

Image
Enlarged version

Unfortunately Charmley's endnotes are not on the preview, so I can't tell what his source is for the specific quote in question. But it features in numerous books with restricted views on Google Books. Below is the most extensive extract I've found of it online (admittedly in only a quick search):
http://archive.org/stream/sixtydaysthatsho000320mbp#page/n211/mode/2up
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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