Balsamo wrote:It's a very tiny point in common. As far as i know, the six millions were broadly used in the west and concerned Jews only, it was kind of "confrimed" by a hearsay from Eichman which did not specify the number of victims for each camp.
No, this number is from Wilhelm Höttl´s affidavit presented in Nuremberg, he allegedly hear it from Eichmann.
 Höttl affidavit of Nov. 26, 1945: 2738-PS (USA-296) in IMT, vol. 31, pp. 85-87;IMT Vol. III. p. 569
As far as I know, Eichmann himself denied such a statement about 4+2 million exterminated Jews.
Balsamo wrote:] It was said that 4 millions Jews died in camps and 2 millions other way. Of course, as it has been shown, this symbolic number was used all over the place in the press...there is iIRC even an american paper stating 6.000.000 victims of Stalin in Ukraine in the 30's...No further comment.
This number was used from 19th to 20th century before the second World War.
Don Heddesheimer, The First Holocaust—Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns With Holocaust Claims During And After World War One
I am missing your response to the fact that Document USSR-008 was accepted as evidence thanks to Article 21 of Charter of the International Military Tribunal, and was taken "judicial notice" of, thus this refute your essential claim that this had not been taken seriously.
Balsamo wrote:Again, in the west only, and the fact that the Frankfurt court did not take it shows that the number was not taken into consideration.
And i am not aware of a soviet document emphasising the Jewish nature of the victims.
My point was about percentage and numbers of Jews among victims, and with using of west sources is proven that most of the victims of death toll figures were Jews according to western sources and is false to explain it in the way that 4 million figure from Soviets was for probably mainly for non-Jews = no need to lower 6 million figure. Thus again, your essential point is refuted, western source apparently always maintained that victims were mostly Jews, some of them even repeated false figure from Soviets.
Balsamo wrote:Which is only a short version of the famous list presented by Hannover above and that comes directly from Faurisson IIRC.
Everyone is free to judge if this list is honnest or not.
This is not short version, these are only numbers related to point of my response (similar or even higher figures).
Your allusion about possibly "dishonest" references aren´t honest, feel free to check references.
Balsamo wrote:In my opinion the list is misleading because it starts from the highest estimations ( which was never made) to the lower which is of course the one of Faurisson, and presented to be backed by a NY times article.
You opinion is wrong, as proven, they were made, check references please. In this list, I do not see even one single NY Times article used as a reference.
Balsamo wrote:Of course, if the list would have been presented chronologically, it would have lost its effect
This point is quite irrelevant as everybody can see that every reference is provided together with date explicitly stated by Faurisson along with every number. Anyway, here is list as you have requested and as I compiled it for my personal use, so not based only on Faurisson´s list:
4,000,000 - 1945
2,000,000 - 2,500,000 - 1945
8,000,000 - 1945
3,000,000 - 1946
2,500,000 - 3,000,000 - 1946
4,500,000 - 1946-1947
5,000,000 -5,500,000 - 1946-1947
6,000,000 - 1951
2,000,000 - 1951
800,000 - 900,000 - 1953
9,000,000 - 1955
4,000,000 - 1967
2,000,000 - 1973
4,000,000 - 1973
2,000,000 - 1975
5,000,000 - 1979
2,000,000 - 4,000,000 - 1982
1,471,595 - 1983
1,250,000 - 1985
4,000,000 - 1986
1,600,000 - 1989
4,000,000 - 1990 (plaque removed)
4,000,000 - 1991
1,000,000 - 1992
775,000 - 800,000 - 1993
1,100,000 - 1,500,000 - 1994
1,500,000 - 1995
510,000 - 2002
1,100,000 - 2005
*I used only years, not month/days, I used first editions, not later editions, I hope that there is no error, I summarized it quickly, feel free to point out any errors.
(edit - I added three more figures)
Balsamo wrote:it would have lost its effect
Contrary what you are saying, this new list based on chronology is much better. previous list could make an impression of historical research which is responsible for lower death toll. This new list is proof that numbers are simply not based on evidence and saying them is easy as a breathing. Thank you very much for this interesting idea.
Balsamo wrote:and appears as it is a "pile of silly numbers gathered randomly from all over the places".
All what is needed to see from which places they are gathered is to read references, places are mainly - trial records, government documents, known historical books, museum, documentary, witnesses. As you have said, "silly numbers from all over the places"
Balsamo wrote:If one limits on the 3 estimations your chose. the fisrt one is the more symbolic.
"Nuit et Brouillard" directed by Renais in 1955 is more a memorial movie than a historical documentory. If the background shows Birkenau, in a way of a dramatic final scene. The "landscape" (paysage) is not defined in the text. Never is it said that 9.000.000 persons died at Birkenau, because it was not the point of the narrative of this "memorial" movie.
Don´t you think that this damage control is absurd? Contrary to what you are saying, such a documentary have the greatest impact on public since they are more easily accepted and public generally do not read "scholar" books. I must say that is quite absurd when exterminationists always begin to claim that source is not serious, only symbolic and etc.as the way how to deal with false information, they do not realize that this undermine their own sources of information.
Balsamo wrote:And yes Henri Michel and Olga Worsmer were advisers for the movie, (the same way Ridley Scott's "Gladiator" had some. That does not mean that any of them would claim that emperor Commode was killed by Maximus !, but yes he was the son of Marc Aurèle!)
Here you are mixing apples and oranges, Apples - hollywood blockbuster where the things are changed for the purpose of the entertainment and for the purpose to make good movie and historian are presented there as a consultants to maintain basic storyline and background and not for the purpose to make historical documentary. Almost every such a movie has something like this showed at the end:
"All characters, places or events appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."
Oranges - allegedly true history of holocaust presented as true via documentary - so basically you are saying that holocaust in documentary or books is some kind of hollywood bunch of false historical information or "poetic license"?
Can you provide me with some explicit notification in connection with Night and Fog where the peoples are warned about "symbolic/memorial/poetic" nature of this documentary movie which does not reflect true nature of provided information?
Balsamo wrote: Never is it said that 9.000.000 persons died at Birkenau
No, there is: "Nine million dead haunt this countryside" - when the camera is in Auschwitz-Birkenau, when narrator speaks about crematoria and Auschwitz. So if I understand you correctly, because there is not explicitly stated "nine million died in Birkenau", you claim that this statement was not clearly related to Auschwitz but to some different place where the Nazis exterminated nine million peoples?
Balsamo wrote:But it is true that by that time French Historians ( at a time where the Communist party scored about 25% in France) accepted the 4.000.000 numbers from (Soviet Polish sources)
With this statement you are probably claiming that Soviet or Polish and communist sources are probably not credible in effort to explain false nature of these french sources for the sake of the moment, thus you again shot official historiography in the foot since almost everything what we know about so-called extermination camps is from these soviet/polish/communist sources.
Balsamo wrote:And yes according movie the number of victims of "Nazi barbarism" was 9.000.000...but in TOTAL.
Not true as shown by the movie itself. Even in the case of you claim, you did not solve anything, since the number from Nuremberg is 6 million. In the case of Night and Fog, there is not included figure from alleged extermination in the east in 1941, according to sources, 1-2 million, so the total death toll in the case of Night and Fog will be some 11,000,000. Actually i do not know what you want to achieve, but you cannot solve this problem in any way, you must deal with the fact that information is completely false even from the view of orthodox sources, even in 50´s. There is no other way than to admit that information is false.
Balsamo wrote:Which only proves that Soviet sources does not lead to the 6.000.000
Not true as shown by Soviet sources.
The rest is in the same way, basically you began to undermine every inconvenient source to somehow avoid clear statement that information is false, not true, not based on evidence, and you do not realize that this strongly undermine exterminationist´s case. You "forgot" to adress one of the most famous and "authoritative" source, Deborah Lipstadt.
Off topic question - Do you believe in gassings of human being in Nazi homicidal gas chambers?
edit - I added responses to missed points from Balsamo.