Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

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Kladderadatsch
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Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Kladderadatsch » 5 years 11 months ago (Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:09 pm)

This is no great discovery, perhaps, but I found it amusing all the same.

According to the testimony of the mysterious Gerhard Adametz, as read into the record at the IMT by Soviet prosecutor Smirnov on February 19, 1946, evidence of the mass shootings at Babi Yar was eliminated in the autumn of 1943 by members of the so-called Aktion 1005 Sonderkommandos:

I . . . submit to the Tribunal as evidence the original record of the interrogation of Gerhard Adametz (Exhibit USSR-80, Document Number USSR-80), taken by an American army lieutenant, Patrick McMahon. Gerhard Adametz was interrogated under oath. I dwell especially on this document, which has been put kindly at our disposal by our American colleagues, because Adametz' testimony, to use a legal term, in some points corroborates our own evidential material. The testimony is very lengthy, and I will limit myself to a few short quotations. .

Gerhard Adametz was a member of Sonderkommando 1005-B. . . . Gerhard Adametz said that, together with 40 other members of the Schutzpolizei, he left Dniepropetrovsk and was sent to Kiev. I remind the Tribunal of the name of Baybe-yar, which the Tribunal has already heard. I begin to quote the testimony of Adametz, Page 347 . . .

"The work of the internees consisted, as we found out later, of exhuming corpses which were buried here in two common graves, transporting them, piling them up in two enormous piles, and burning them. It is difficult to estimate; however, I believe that on this spot were buried from 40,000 to 45,000 corpses. One antitank ditch served as a grave and was partially filled with corpses. This ditch was 100 meters long, 10 meters wide, and 4 to 5 meters deep." . . .

I interrupt my quotation. I beg the Tribunal to pay attention to the fact that as soon as the work of burning corpses was completed the internees were murdered. In proof of this I quote the following excerpt from Adametz' statement, Page 352, second paragraph of the text:

"In other places where I also served as guard, the internees were murdered after their work (exhuming and burning of corpses) had been concluded. For this purpose they were brought in groups or individually, under the escort of the policemen chosen for this purpose, to a spot designated by the SD. The police were afterwards sent back to bring along more internees. Then the members of the SD forced the internees to lie, face down, on a wooden platform, and immediately shot them in the nape of the neck. The internees in many cases obeyed this order without resistance and lay down next to their comrades who already had been shot." . . .

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp


Strictly speaking, I suppose that Smirnov is not directly claiming here that no forensic evidence remained to be found at Babi Yar, but that's the implication. The internees doing the dirty work were allegedly murdered "as soon as the work of burning corpses was completed," and while the quotation from Adametz used to support this claim starts with "In other places where I also served as guard . . . " something which, logically, could mean that it did not happen at Babi Yar, again the implication is that Babi Yar is included in the general pattern. And of course, if the internee laborers were all murdered when the work was done, the work, ipso facto, must have been done. (The evidence was successfully "disappeared.")

Besides, Smirnov tells the court that he is calling on Adametz's testimony because it "in some points corroborates our own evidential material." The selections he reads into the record all deal with the disinterring and burning of corpses, and he's not likely to have wasted the court's time with testimony that contradicted the Soviets' "own evidential material," and so the clear conclusion is that the Soviets were trying to establish the idea that no forensic evidence remained of the Babi Yar massacres . . . because it had been previously eliminated by the the Nazis. After all, if there had been direct physical evidence (photographs of disinterred corpses, etc.), he could have simply submitted that instead, and Adametz's testimony would have been moot.

That much, then, just to confirm the usual story that the Soviet's found no evidence at Babi Yar because it had been disappeared by the Nazis.

So what's the amusing discovery? Just this (scroll down to the third image):

Image
Image
Image

from: http://www.tauberholocaustlibrary.org/a ... phlet.html
main archive: http://www.tauberholocaustlibrary.org/a ... mples.html

Apologies for the fuzzy image quality, but the text is clear enough, at least on my monitor:

Later, when our group of foreign correspondents visited Babi Yar, what I saw there convinced me of the awful truth of Bazhan's words.

Walking through the sand pits in which the place abounds, I had literally to pick my way over a ghastly profusion of legs, arms and scalps in advanced stages of decomposition. . . .


So "Daily Worker Moscow Correspondent" John Gibbons could claim on October 28, 1943 that he "literally" had to pick his way over the bodies at Babi Yar, but by the time of the IMT in 1946, when the issue was no longer one of propaganda but one of legal proof (however debased), the fact that there were no bodies to pick one's way over became something of an embarrassment for the Soviets. And so the story changed, and Aktion 1005 made its appearance in holocaust lore.

The sausage, being made.

Of course, if Wikipedia is to be believed, the Red Army didn't even capture Kiev until November 5 or even 6 of 1943, so one might also wonder what a "Daily Worker Moscow Correspondent" was doing walking around the city with a junket of other "foreign correspondents" a week earlier on October 28.

Maybe the Germans read his report and realized they still had some cleaning up to do before Stalin got home? :lol:


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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:00 am)

According to holo-historians the number of Babi Jar victims goes from 200 000 up to 700 000 depending from which holo-source we take the data.
Because so far it was impossible to find any bodies of those victims we are presented which the next holo-miracle.
This time we are told the reason is very simple: German used 360 jews who- during 3 weeks -dug out and and burned all bodies to cover all traces of mass murder.
Very good.
To make it easy for holo-believers I accept the lowest possible numbers of victims: 200 000
3 weeks =21 days.
360 diggers/burners
How many bodies a day per head of a digger?
Every day for 21 days? :)

What about 700 000 victims?
21 days...360 diggers.... :)

Jerzy
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Hektor » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:56 am)

Is the Babi-Yar hoax still upheld by (Western) orthodox Holocaust scholars?

The site is good in the sense that it links to other sources of information. Just a feasible downloading must be found (they put the book scans on single images).

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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Reviso » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:03 pm)

Kladderadatsch wrote:Of course, if Wikipedia is to be believed, the Red Army didn't even capture Kiev until November 5 or even 6 of 1943, so one might also wonder what a "Daily Worker Moscow Correspondent" was doing walking around the city with a junket of other "foreign correspondents" a week earlier on October 28.


Very interesting post.
Now, "October 28, 1943" is likely a misprint. In the article, he says : "when our victorious troops marched through the streets [of Kiev] on November 6th."
R.
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Kladderadatsch » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:10 pm)

Thanks, Reviso. You're quite right about the date. I had read the whole excerpt (all two pages . . . the folks at Tauber are stingy that way, I wonder why), but by the time I got around to making my post, I guess I'd forgotten the detail about November 6. Without taking anything away from you though, I should say here that that seemed the most likely explanation to me as well: a simple misprint. My weakness is just that I can't resist a little laugh, and so I added the bit about the confusion of dates in at the end. But yes, you're right to make the correction; I wouldn't want anyone building a false argument on the basis of that simple mistake.

So the correct date (probably!) is November 28, 1943, not October.

Thanks again.
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Breker » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:28 pm)

Reviso wrote:
Kladderadatsch wrote:Of course, if Wikipedia is to be believed, the Red Army didn't even capture Kiev until November 5 or even 6 of 1943, so one might also wonder what a "Daily Worker Moscow Correspondent" was doing walking around the city with a junket of other "foreign correspondents" a week earlier on October 28.


Very interesting post.
Now, "October 28, 1943" is likely a misprint. In the article, he says : "when our victorious troops marched through the streets [of Kiev] on November 6th."
R.

Fine. However, the primary thrust of this thread is that we have yet another contradiction within the holocaust. As Kladderatdatsch makes clear, one fib says the human remains were removed by the Germans, the commie reporter fib says he was falling all over various anatomical parts. Aerial photos at the precise time of alleged activities show that nothing was occurring at the site at all.
B.

From the beloved Hannover we have Babi Yar 'massacre' debunked - viewtopic.php?t=41

Hannover wrote:Babi Yar ravine outside of Kiev, The Ukraine, is alleged to be an enormous mass shooting site by the Einsatzgruppen (German anti-guerilla/terrorist forces). The numbers are all over the place, from 34,000 to ca. 300,000; which creates skepticism in itself.
The story goes that Jews were shot on the edge of the ravine, fell to the bottom, were then buried. The corpses are said to have been exhumed later to hide the evidence and cremated via:
1. open air pyres
2. ovens made of tombstones from the nearby Jewish cemetery (no, not a joke - that's part of a version of the story). There has never been an official forensic study, it's not permitted. Read on.
Babi Yar photo here:
Image
Image

This particular photo was taken during the exact time of the alleged exhumations & cremations of supposedly, tens of thousands (cremation furnaces alleged to have been made from Jewish tombstones from nearby cemetery, cemetery shown in photo). The photo is available from the U.S. National Archives and is listed as: GX 3938 SG, exposure 105. If the alleged event were true, we would be seeing the massive cremations in progress, large numbers of German soldiers, equipment, the actual disturbed site, etc. We see nothing of the sort.

also see: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndbabiyar.html
===========
The numbers for the alleged Babi Yar massacre are bizarre:

- Encyclopedia of Ukraine, published by University of Toronto Press [1988, Vol. 1, p. 154], states 3,000 were killed.

- On January 27 Prime Minister Viktorr Yushchenko has stated over 100,000 killed.
The New Pathway (Toronto) <[email protected]> | February 19, 2000, p. 5

- In Toronto, Vitaly Korotych, editor of the Soviet-era journal Ogonyok, delivered a speech on April 23, 1990 wherein he cited a figure of 300,000 killed.

- 2 conflicting & alleged Einsatzgruppen Reports supposedly say ca 31,000 - 36,000. The originals of these "reports" are curiously unavailable.

- Aerial photography of 1943, at the exact time when the bodies were allegedly being exhumed and burned in "ovens made of Jewish cemetery tombstones" reveal absolutely nothing. As well, there is no indication of a mass grave from which these bodies allegedly came.

So, we've gone from 300,000 to 0. It would seem that they're having a difficult time keeping the story straight.
Here's a revealing article from the Barnes Review, 1996,n.7:
Using air photos and wartime newspapers, Ukrainian writer MICHAEL NIKIFORUK attacks a few myths about a wartime atrocity.
What Happened at Babi Yar? Fact vs. Myth


BY Michael Nikiforuk

THE MEMORY of the "massacre" of Jews at Babi Yar is painful to all politicians. But evidence shows it never happened. Aerial reconnaissance photos taken before and during World War II show mass graves of victims of the Soviet Cheka/NKVD, but an absence of Jewish mass burials.
What if anything, happened at a place called Babi Yar (Old Woman's Ravine) near Kiev, Ukraine - September 29, 1941? According to official histories and inscriptions on monuments, 250,000 people, mostly Jews, were killed by the Nazis there. But if thousands of Kievan Jews (those not evacuated by the Soviets) were killed in September of 1941 by the Germans, they were not murdered or buried at Babi Yar. This fact was revealed in aerial reconnaissance photos discovered in the U.S. National Archives in Washington, DC.

In February 1997 a Ukrainian court threw out a case brought by Ukrainian Jews against V. Kretytnychy of the St. Andrew Society and E. Musiyenko, editor of the Kiev Evening News (Vechirnyi Kyiv), who challenged the official Babi Yar story. Encouraged by the court decision, on March 19, 1997 the Kiev Evening News published a four-page story setting the record straight for the first time since the Allies condemned the phony "atrocity" during World War II.
What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.
For decades, aerial photography has been recognized as an indispensable archaeological tool. With sophisticated equipment, ruins of ancient cities and cemeteries that lie under cultivated fields, forgotten for decades or centuries, have been discovered. Even submerged Hellenic ports have been discovered by
aerial photography.
In 1991, wartime aerial photographs from the National Archives in Washington, DC were used as the ultimate guidance in exhumations of hundreds of Polish officers and intellectuals massacred in 1939-40 by the Soviet NKVD in the vicinity of Kharkiv. Aerial photos of Kiev's distant suburbs, including Bykivnia, Bilhorodka and Darnista, revealed mass graves of victims of the 1930's Stalinist terror-famine. It is therefore logical to assume that aerial photos of a ravine would reveal evidence of recent mass graves or of a major topographic disturbance.
The US National Archives in Washington contain about 1,100,000 wartime aerial photos, among them some 600 of Kiev, including Babi Yar. They were taken during 20 or more flights over the area. The first photos, taken at 12:23 pm on May 17, 1939, reveal such details as cars and even the shadows of the lamp posts on the streets of Kiev. Every large bush and small tree is visible on the slopes and at the bottom of the Babi Yar ravine. The last aerial photo coverage of Kiev (and Babi Yar) took place on June 18, 1944, about nine months after the city's "liberation" by the Red Army.
This series of reconnaissance photos demonstrates that the flora and the ground cover of the ravine remained undisturbed throughout the two years of German occupation. When the early and late photos are compared, it is obvious that the scattered trees grew and became slightly larger. No evidence of human or large animal activity in the ravine can be discerned on the many aerial photos of Babi Yar taken repeatedly in different seasons of the years 1939-1944.
In November of 1943, a group of Western journalists, including New York Times correspondent William "Bill" Lawrence, himself Jewish, were invited to Kiev by the Soviets. This occurred two weeks after the city's fall to the Red Army. The reporters were told that this was only six weeks after the Germans had completed the dynamiting, disinterment and open-air cremation of 70,000 corpses, followed by the crushing and bulldozing of the unburned bones into the soil of the ravine.
But the Western journalists were hard pressed to find any convincing physical evidence at the site of the alleged massacre.
The lack of reliable physical evidence of this "greatest massacre of World War II" - and the inability to find a single inhabitant of Kiev willing to corroborate the story - impelled the NKVD to provide the Westerners with three "eyewitnesses." Even though a Times editor censored out the most egregious exaggerations (about Soviet partisans and German "gassing vans"), the disjointed story by these three liberated Soviet POW's became the template for imitation for all subsequent Babi Yar testimonies.
When one realizes that all liberated Soviet POW's were facing either a firing squad or a short-lived future in the Gulags (it was a capital crime in the USSR for a soldier to be captured alive by the enemy), one realizes why it was easy for the NKVD to coerce any expedient statement from them.
Two weeks later, Soviet authorities were able to orchestrate massive "grass roots" support for their three Babi Yar witnesses. According to the "front pages of Moscow newspapers," (as reported in the United States), "40,000 Kiev residents [sent a letter] to Premier Josef Stalin, raising the estimate of the number killed and burned in the [Babi Yar] ravine to more than 10,000 (New York Times, Dec. 4, 1943).
Since - in later years - only 11 of these supposedly well-informed citizens offered any testimony, the wartime statistical reports in the NYT regarding Babi Yar (as well as the subsequent testimonies of belated witnesses) may be considered baseless. By 1943, the NKVD had a well-earned reputation for its ability to obtain any testimony from almost any witness.
For instance, in August of 1941, the Soviet press agency TASS and the Associated Press reported as fact the testimonies of NKVD-provided witnesses to the effect that the massacre of about 4,000 Ukrainians in NKVD prisons in the city of Lviv in late June of that year "was committed by the Nazi Storm troopers." This in spite of the fact that Lviv had not been taken by the Germans until July 1, 1941. Long famous testimony extorted by the NKVD from a large number of witnesses told of the mass murder of 4,500 Polish military officers and intellectuals by the Nazis in the Katyn Forest. These fraudulent testimonies, taken under oath in the fall of 1943, were finally refuted by the Russians in the spring of 1990.
However, this admission was not forthcoming until the German pre-invasion aerial reconnaissance photo of Katyn (showing the mass graves of the Polish officers, teachers, etc.) had been transmitted in the fall of 1989 to the Soviet authorities.
Chronology suggests that the NKVD provided Western correspondents with three Soviet ex-POW, as witnesses of the Babi Yar massacre to test their credibility under scrutiny of non-Soviets. In 1943, the Babi Yar massacre, being almost unknown in the West and thus unimportant, was apparently selected by the NKVD for such a "dress rehearsal" prior to the contemplated exposure to Western journalists of fraudulent Katyn massacre witnesses in this far more publicized and more politically important affair.
As a result of the failed Babi Yar credibility test for their ex-POWs, the Soviets for 25 years did not provide access to live "eyewitnesses" of massacres to Western correspondents in Katyn or elsewhere.
Furthermore, the Soviets postponed the inspection of Katyn by Westerners for four months, from Sept. 29, 1943 to January 24, 1944, until the site and the physical evidence were covered by snow and literally frozen, as was the reporters' investigative zeal in the unheated tents provided them.
Among the observers of the work of the Soviet investigative commission was 25-year-old Kathleen Harriman (daughter of then-US Ambassador to Moscow W. Averell Harriman) who, in her naivete', later became (along with her father) a champion of Soviet credibility. On the other hand, the more experienced Lawrence from the NYT, who was also present, was even more skeptical in his Katyn report about presented evidence than in his earlier Babi Yar story. As a result, his Katyn report was spiked and never published.
Thus, the false testimony of the NKVD-provided eyewitnesses of the alleged Babi Yar massacre became the cornerstone of a decades-long Soviet judicial policy of not allowing their fraudulent atrocity witnesses to testify independently; that is, beyond the reach of the supervising Soviet prosecutor, or outside the borders of the USSR.
Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman, who also invented and reported the now discredited victim counts of Nazi concentration camps: 4 million at Auschwitz; 1.5 million at Majdanek and 3.5 million at Treblinka.
Even at the Nuremberg Trials, the Soviets did not provide to Western authorities or correspondents live eyewitnesses to any German massacres, including Babi Yar and Katyn. Instead, Soviet Prosecutor Col. Smirnoff peddled--but without much success--fabrications in the form of affidavits about the two alleged German massacres. Also Ilya Ehrenburg, in his 1947 novel, The Storm, tried unsuccessfully to revitalize the Babi Yar story.
The Old Woman's Ravine story did not gain "credibility" until 12 years later. Then, a visiting Jewish-Ukrainian-American journalist, Joseph Schechtman, persuaded young Soviet dissident Evgeny Yevtushenko to write an emotional and widely read poem "Babi Yar".
But poetic fancy cannot stand against physical evidence. Indeed, the aerial photos of the Ahovtnevyi borough of Kiev and the general area of Babi Yar reveal the presence of a row of about 10 mass graves, some 165 yards behind the western fence of Kiev's labor camp, Syretz. These could contain up to 1,000 victims of the camp buried over the two years of the German occupation of Kiev. Furthermore, at the nearby small Orthodox Lukianivsky cemetery, another, larger mass grave can be seen. This could contain up to 2,000 bodies of the frequent public or surreptitious German executions of resistance fighters of Kiev.
On this subject, according to the Hague Convention (1905) and the Geneva Convention (1920) on the conduct of civilians during wartime, taking part in hostilities without easily visible, external symbols of belonging to the military units is subject to immediate execution.
A number of additional, overlooked historical facts undermine the credibility of the standard tale propagated about Babi Yar today.
For one thing, the Babi Yar massacre was not mentioned in the Ukrainian Resistance press, although the killing of its members by the Germans in Kiev is described. Secondly, the occurrence of the Babi Yar massacre is excluded, until the late 1970s, from the writings of Ukrainian emigres (former wartime inhabitants of Kiev) as well as from Ukrainian encyclopedias; some published by Western universities. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, for decades the Babi Yar massacre did not catch the literary attention of Kiev's Jewish population.
The expatriates of about 440 Jewish communities of the USSR were able to produce commemorative books (Yizkerbikhers) about their districts, cities, towns and even villages. But not until 1981 was the first scarce, commemorative book published in a small edition about the Ukrainian capital, Kiev; in Israel in Hebrew. An expanded Yiddish version came out again in a limited edition in the US in 1983. If the massacre at Babyn Yar were true, how could 150,000 surviving, educated Kievan Jews have been so tardy in recording the destruction of their kinsmen?
On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the alleged "Babi Yar massacre," the world's media were replete with reports of the exact number (33,771) of Jews machine-gunned there. They variously reported its timing as taking 48, 36 or 24 hours. However, they rarely mentioned that the suspiciously exact number of victims were derived from captured German documents (so-called "Einsatzgruppen Reports") and were completely silent about the fact that these purported "exact" reports failed to indicate Babi Yar as the site of the massacre.
The media also failed to mention that almost every major historian, including "Holocaust expert" Prof. Raul Hillberg, considers the atrocities mentioned in these reports as exaggerated.
The wartime aerial photos of Kiev provide incontrovertible proof that the so-called historic documentation of the Babi Yar massacre represents fabricated wartime propaganda and post-war martyr mythology. Perhaps the Nazis had, as promised, deported the missing Kievans away from Kiev. If so, their remains and burial sites should be sought elsewhere.
On the other hand, what may have happened in Kiev can be glimpsed from the dispatch of the United States 12th Army Headquarters in Europe, published in (among others) the May 1, 1945 issue of the New York Herald Tribune. It mentions that a captured German doctor, Gustav Schuebbe, who "confessed" to
directing an annihilation institute, where "110,000 Were Murdered by Nazi Physicians in Kiev." In addition, Schuebbe "admitted he had [himself] murdered about 21,000 persons" with injections, thus apparently outdoing Dr. Mengele, the infamous Auschwitz physician.
So, far, no one in the former USSR, or from Jewish organizations, has attempted to pinpoint the location of the "German Annihilation Institute" (where the remaining "Jews and Gypsies" of Kiev were killed, according to the May 1, 1945 issue of the NYHT). Had such a place existed, it would seem that the site of the "Annihilation Institute" would be the proper Kiev location for the commemorative menorah, erected in 1991 following a visit by then-US President George Bush.
Not until 1966 were Ukrainians implicated in the alleged Babi Yar massacre of Jews. The only witness was an alleged Babi Yar survivor, a Kiev Puppet Theater actress named Dina Pronicheva. The testimony of this Jewish witness is nullified by the absence of any photographic trace of massacre or mass burial. Furthermore, no witness has ever implied the complicity of Ukrainians in acts perpetrated at the never-located German Annihilation Institute of Kiev.
Following the Soviet Union's demise, the leaders of the then-newly-proclaimed independent Ukraine - instant converts from communism - were fast to jump on the Babi Yar bandwagon.
One of them, Ukraine's Ambassador to the United Nations, Genadi Udovenko, went so far as to state (Washington Times, Sept. 5, 1991) that "in the first week of the horrible Babi Yar massacre, 50,000 Jews, mostly children, had been slaughtered."
During the summer of 1941, the Soviets had been able to evacuate about 150,000 Jews from Kiev, while the Germans were advancing through Western Ukraine. Therefore, the Ukrainian Ambassador's statement was preposterous and inadvertently defamatory.
It suggested that Jewish parents, who had been safely evacuated from Kiev, had abandoned their children.
Perhaps Ukraine's current leaders might better serve their people, as well as their post-Communist consciences, by exhibiting tangible contrition relative to Communism's early 1930's famine-slaughter of unquestionably immense proportions.
================
Ofcourse, this hasn't stopped the fraud and profit motive, now see this:

The New Pathway (Toronto) | February 19, 2000, p. 5
STOCKHOLM (Interfax)
-- Prime Minister Viktorr Yushchenko has announced his government's support for an initiative by the Jewish Confederation of Ukraine to set up a Holocaust museum in Kyiv.
Speaking to the International Forum on the Holocaust in Stockholm, Sweden, on January 27, Mr. Yushchenko said: "The Ukrainian people strongly take to heart the suffering of the Jews, for they also experienced such horrors as war, famine, fascism and Stalin's repressions. The very existence of our nation, its language and culture, were denied."
In particular, the prime minister mentioned Babyn Yar, the site made notorious by a Nazi extermination operation which victimized over ***100,000 people*** of various nationalities, a majority of whom were Jews.
Mr. Yuschchenko also called on the world Jewish community and its organizations to assist Ukraine's Holocaust commemoration effort.
He assured his audience that the reforms his Cabinet was proposing would significantly improve the living conditions of his country's Jewish community.
At present, there are approximately 480,000 Jews living in just under 100 cities in Ukraine, with about 300 Jewish organizations and over 70 functioning synagogues.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Kladderadatsch » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:47 pm)

Speaking of numbers . . .

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek wrote:According to holo-historians the number of Babi Jar victims goes from 200 000 up to 700 000 depending from which holo-source we take the data.


Jerzy, where do you get the number 700,000 from? The Big H is full of crazy numbers, but as far as I know, the figures for Babi Yar usually run to more like 100,000, with 200,000 being the supersized Pravda-version maximum. I'm not looking to challenge you here; I'm genuinely interested. If you could point to a source which claims 700,000 killed at Babi Yar, I'd love to add it to my Kooks Kollection.

As for the number of bodies per worker, I'm not sure that's the best argument against the Aktion 1005 myth--at least not at Babi Yar. For example, on the day before he read the supposed Adametz testimony quoted above, Smirnov presented the following story from self-described escaped witnesses of the Babi Yar cremations:

"The witnesses, L. K. Ostrovski, C. B. Berlandt, W. Y. Davydov, Y.A. Steyuk, and J.M. Brodski, who had escaped the shootings at Baybe-yar on 29 September 1943, testified:

" 'As prisoners of war we were interned in the Syretzk Concentration Camp in the outskirts of Kiev. On 18 August 100 of us were sent to Baybe-yar. There we were shackled in chains and ordered to exhume and burn the corpses of Soviet citizens who had been murdered by the Germans. Here the Germans brought granite monuments and iron railings from the cemetery. From these monuments we made platforms on which we placed rails, and on top of these rails we laid the iron grills to act as fire bars. On the iron grills a layer of firewood was placed, and on top of the firewood we placed a layer of corpses. On the corpses we placed a further layer of firewood and poured petroleum over the whole. Following this order the corpses were piled up in several layers and then ignited. About 2,500 to 3,000 corpses were placed in each of these "ovens." The Germans detailed special crews for the removal of earrings, rings, and also gold teeth from the jaws of the dead.

" 'When all the corpses were burned, new "ovens" were stacked, and so on. The bones were smashed into small particles by bulldozers and the ashes strewn over the Yar, so that no traces should be left. The men worked from 12 to 15 hours a day.

" 'The Germans used excavators in order to expedite the work. From 18 August until the day of our escape-29 September-approximately 70,000 corpses were burned.'"

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-18-46.asp


If the work lasted from 18 August to 29 September, that would actually be six weeks, not three (42 days, not including September 29). With a hundred workers, that would make

70 000 / 100 / 42 = 16.67

or about sixteen to seventeen bodies per worker per day. That's a lot of digging and hauling, maybe, but probably not impossible, especially if they had excavators and bulldozers available "to expedite the work."

So yes, if someone's claiming 700,000 bodies burned, that's another matter. But if we limit ourselves to the claims made at Nuremberg, for example, the numbers alone don't seem impossible.

(The story is still ridiculous of course, just for other reasons. The detail about building ovens out of tombstones from the Jewish cemetery is classic Lolocaust lols :lol:.)

Incidentally, in the same presentation, just before the "testimony" of Ostrovski and company, Smirnov gave the number of dead at Kiev as . . .

"In Kiev, over 195,000 Soviet citizens were tortured to death, shot, and poisoned in the gas vans, as follows:

"(1) In Baybe-yar, over 100,000 men, women, children, and old people.

"(2) In Darnitza, over 68,000 Soviet prisoners of war and peaceful citizens.

"(3) In the antitank trench in the vicinity of Syretzk Camp and in the camp proper, over 25,000 peaceful Soviet citizens and prisoners of war.

"(4) In the grounds of the Hospital of St. Cyril, 800 insane patients.

"(5) In the grounds of the Kiev-Pechersk Abbey, about 500 peaceful citizens.

"(6) In the cemetery of Ljukjanousk, about 400 peaceful citizens."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-18-46.asp


So again, if Smirking Smirnov limited himself to 195,000 dead at Kiev, with a "mere" 100,000 of those at Babi Yar, then whoever is claiming 200,000 to 700,000 at Babi Yar alone is really stretching it. That's Soviet propaganda on steroids.
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby borjastick » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:25 pm)

Reading the above shines more light on the claim that the entire holocaust is a political sham designed and developed by Russia. Delivered to IMT and grabbed with both hands by the Zionist terrorists and Jewish heirachy, who saw a once in a millenia chance to establish Israel on stolen land while the world was looking the other way.
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GX3938SG-260943-105 Babi Yar from the air, 26.9.1943 . . .

Postby Kladderadatsch » 5 years 11 months ago (Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:19 pm)

. . . or, John Ball Vindicated

Hannover wrote:
Image



This may be important enough to start a new thread, but I'm going to post it here first as well, since it follows on from the discussion above.

Hannover has posted the famous aerial image of Babi Yar from John Ball's "Air Photo Evidence." It's an interesting image, but it's blurry and hard to tell much conclusively from it. That's no criticism of Ball; his was pioneering research, and when publishing his results he had to work within the limitations of the technology available at the time. Still, it's hard to say with any real confidence that nothing was happening in the area on its basis. For one thing the area captured by the image is just too small--holocaust believers can always just say, "Yeah, but the image is cropped," etc. (See, for example, this typically abusive post at HC: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onism.html. ) So the image, as presented, isn't necessarily all that convincing on its own.

Anyway, I made an interesting discovery today: http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/. Amazing collection of high-res scans of maps and aerial recon photos from the war, and guess what? Kiev is there, and most importantly, so is the famous image GX3938SG-260943-105, uncropped and crystal clear.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/kievaer ... 3-105.html

The image is so large that, depending on your browser settings, it may be tricky to find the right spot (you'll have to move the scroll bars). So here's a reduced image, to help you orient yourself:

Image

The area outlined in red corresponds approximately to the image from Ball's book. For comparison, the area corresponding to the image from the USHMM which Romanov and Co. make such a big deal about being more comprehensive ("OK, so Ball "missed" most of the ravine in his "analysis". For those who know deniers' methods this is not really surprising . . . "), is outlined in yellow.

(If you use the zoom feature on your browser, you can zoom in to very high levels of resolution on the wwii-photos-maps site, and of course, you can zoom out for the bigger picture.)

Naturally, the question which this larger image now raises is, Considering that the photograph in question was taken on September 26, 1943, during precisely that period when, as we've seen above, the Germans were supposedly digging up and burning thousands of bodies, what evidence, if any, can be seen that would support this story?

To play devil's advocate for a moment, the one thing in the area that does stand out as odd is just this feature . . .

Image

right across from the cemetery on the other side of the ravine. Could these be the demonic grills on which the Nazis burned the murdered Jews of Babi Yar?

Consider this. By my count, there are nine full lines to the feature. It would be hard to determine their length with accuracy, but a rough ballpark estimate can perhaps be derived by comparing them to the base of the triangle made by the cemetery across the ravine:

Image

You can check for yourself, but I get a ratio of about 6 to 1 for the two lines. Using Google Maps (see the "reference images" below for a full view), we can get a rough estimate of 500 meters for the base of the triangle . . .

Image

and so the lines in the feature would be something like 500 / 6 = 83.3 meters. That's very approximate, of course, but assuredly in the ballpark. So if we assume that the feature lines are indeed grills, that would mean that the Nazis laid out some 750 (9 * 83.3) meters of Jewish tombstones, railway track and cemetery fencing (and that's just the linear measure; I won't even try to estimate the lines' width) for their giant Kiev Babi-cue in September '43. Are there any witness statements to corroborate this measurement?

And remember, according to Holocaust Controversies,

According to Sonderkommando survivor Vladimir Davydov, on September 25-26, incineration action had been almost finished. (Yevstafjeva, Nakhmanovich, op. cit., p. 148). The last phase of this action consisted of brushing things up - dismantling camouflage, leveling earth, building one last pyre (ibid.)


and so we shouldn't see anything of the sort at all. :lol:

But as I said above, I'm just playing devil's advocate here to anticipate and neutralize a particularly dumb potential response from believers. As for what the feature really is, I don't know; one possibility, given the terrain, would be some kind of terracing for an agricultural purpose. No doubt a proper stereoscopic examination of the original images would produce the answer easily enough.

In the meantime though, does anyone here believe that if the lines on the hillside could indeed be identified as lines of giant grills we would not have heard of it by now? On the contrary, we'd never hear the end of it.

And so that's Babi Yar from the air. Check it out.




Some other images for reference.

Babi Yar today, from Google Maps . . .

Image

without labels . . .

Image

and the view from 1943 (rotated) for comparison . . .

Image

And for the record, the USHMM "crop":

Image

http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarc ... ar&index=1
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby borjastick » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:01 am)

OK my mistake I have confused the two current threads about Babi Yar, apologies. This is excellent work. These pictures certainly make it clear that little if anything was going on in Babi Yar. As for the lines in the lower picture, they could be all sorts of things. From piles of wood for use in home heating to hay piles, pig sties, etc. It is very important that the Holocaustians have claimed nothing about this picture.
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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:27 am)

Kladderadatsch
I will have to digg in to my holo-collection to find out the 700 000 victims source.give me a bit of time:)
In the mean while have a look at this:

Babi Yar served as a slaughterhouse for non-Jews as well, such as GYPSIES and Soviet prisoners of war. According to the estimate given by the Soviet research commission on Nazi crimes, 100,000 persons were murdered at Babi Yar.

(...)
In July 1943, by which time the Red Army was on the advance, Paul Blobel came back to Kiev. He was now on a new assignment, in coordination with SS-Gruppenfuhrer Dr. Max Thomas, the officer commanding the SD and Sipo in the Ukraine: that of erasing all evidence of the mass carnage that the Nazis had perpetrated. For this purpose, Blobel formed two special groups, identified by the code number 1005. Unit 1005-A was made up of eight to ten SD men and thirty German policemen, and was under the command of an SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer named Baumann. In mid-August the unit embarked on its task of exhuming the corpses in Babi Yar and cremating them. The ghastly job itself was carried out by inmates of a nearby concentration camp (Syretsk), from which the Germans brought in 327 men, of whom 100 were Jews. The prisoners were housed in a bunker carved out from the ravine wall; it had an iron gate that was locked during the night and was watched by a guard w! ith a machine gun. They had chains bolted to their legs, and those who fell ill or lagged behind were shot on the spot. The mass graves were opened up by bulldozers, and it was the prisoners' job to drag the corpses to cremation pyres, which consisted of wooden logs doused in gasoline on a base of railroad ties. The bones that did not respond to incineration were crushed, for which purpose the Nazis brought in tombstones from the Jewish cemetery. The ashes were sifted to retrieve any gold or silver they might have contained. Cremation of the corpses began on August 18 and went on for six weeks, ending on September 19, 1943. The Nazis did their job thoroughly, and when they were through no trace was left of the mass graves.

On the morning of September 29, the prisoners learned that they were about to be put to death. They already had a plan for escape, and resolved to put it into effect the same night. Shortly after midnight, under cover of darkness and the fog that enveloped the ravine, twenty-five prisoners broke out. Fifteen succeeded in making their escape; the others were shot during the attempt or on the following morning.





"7. Babi Yar Revolt

Starting August 18th 1943, the Germans headed by Blobel erased traces by removing the corpses and burnt them in furnaces made of the tombstones of the nearby Jewish cemetery. For 6 weeks a group of chained prisoners, Jews and Soviet prisoners of war, doomed to death as well, was forced to perform the operation.

From Martin Gilbert's book "Holocaust":
... As the historian Reuben Ainsztein has written,
'in those half-naked men who reeked of putrefying flesh, whose bodies were eaten by scabies and covered with a layer of mud and soot, and of whose physical strength so little remained, there survived a spirit that defied everything that the Nazis' New Order had done or could do to them. In the men whom the SS men saw only as walking corpses, there matured a determination that at least one of them must survive to tell the world about what happened in Babi Yar'.

29 September 1943 - 2 years after the massacre, the 325 forced-laborers in Babi Yar revolt and break out. 311 were shot down as they run. Only 14 survived. Among them were...(...)

http://www.zchor.org/BABIYAR.HTM

................

Image
Group of women waiting their time to be murdered :bootyshake:

Image
According to the interrogation protocol of the former POW B. V. Sokolov he confirmed that in October 1941 about 300 POWs were taken to the ravine to bury the bodies. In the photo they level the earth over the mass graves. The German soldier (foreground) is showing Ukrainian women the workers in the ravine. :bootyshake:

Image
In the photo the POWs (prisoners of war) level the earth over the mass graves, guarded by German soldiers (foreground and upper left). :bootyshake:
This time it is Babi Jar: :cheers:
Image
Naked women (some are holding their infants) waiting in line to be shot near the ravine at Babi Yar. :bootyshake:

Image
After a mass execution of Jews in the ravine, a German policeman shoots a Jewish women who remains alive and is trying to stand up . :bootyshake:

Image
German police look through the clothing of people killed at Babi Yar. :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake:

Image
The remains of shoes and clothing of people killed in the ravine at Babi Yar. :alien:

Image
POWs in the ravine. They are members of former Soviet elite units, judging by the clothes. The Germans needed physically fit men for this task.

Image
Remains of the pyres, and the dug-out in Babi Yar where the inmates housed.
Looks that they kept the work close to home... :mrgreen:

According to Soviet sources 100,000-200,000 people were shot at Babi Yar up until the time that the area was liberated by the Red Army on 6 November 1943.
(...)
A German Schupo witness:
"Every prisoner was shackled on both legs with a 2-4 metre long chain. :lol: .. The piles of corpses were not set on fire at regular intervals, but whenever one or more piles were ready, they were covered with wood and soaked with oil and gasoline and then ignited."
Imagine doing the digging and burning corpses with a 2,4 meter of chain dragging behind you :)

(...)
Blobel, on 18 June 1947:
"During my visit in August I myself witnessed the burning of corpses in a mass grave near Kiew. This grave was approximately 55 metres long, 3 metres wide and 2.5 metres deep. After the cover had been removed, the corpses were covered with inflammable materials and set on fire. About two days passed before the fire had burned down to the bottom of the trench. Afterwards the grave was filled in and all traces thereby virtually obliterated. Because of the advance of the front it was not possible to destroy the mass graves located in the South and East which had resulted from execution by the task groups."
The corpses were cremated on funeral pyres, built on iron rails. Firewood was stacked, then the corpses were placed on this petrol soaked material. When the pyres had burned down, the special command of prisoners had to collect the remaining bones which were pulverized with tombstones from the Jewish cemetery. :mrgreen: (imagine this-Jerzy)Finally the ashes were inspected in order to collect any remaining silver and gold (these men were called "Goldsucher" ("Gold diggers").
http://www.berdichev.org/babi_yar.htm

...........

"Then she heard people walking near her, actually on the bodies. They were Germans who had climbed down and were bending over and taking things from the dead and occasionally firing those which showed signs of life. Among them was the policeman who had examined her papers and taken her bag, she recognised him by his voice.

One SS-man caught his foot against Dina and her appearance aroused his suspicions. He shone his torch on her, picked her up and struck her with his fist. But she hung limp and gave no sign of life. He kicked her in the breast with his heavy boot and trod on her right hand so that the bones cracked, but he didn’t use his gun and went off, picking his way across the corpses." :blackeye:

Image
The remains of victims unearthed at Babi Yar :)

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rtest.html
.........

Jerzy

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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:56 am)

A bit more :
"‘Try to Hide Jew Killings’ Nov 29 1943

Nazis Burn Bodies, Story

by Eddy Gilmore

Kiev, USSR (Via Moscow) (AP)

About five miles outside Kiev to the south not far from the Dnieper river in a place called “Babii Yar” (Witches’s Ravine). There, the Russians say, between 60,000 and 80,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis and their bodies later burned.

I have been there, but I’ll let the story tell itself.

We first were escorted there by Prof. Pavel Aloshin, the chief architect for the reconstruction of the Ukraine. He had been here during the whole time of the German occupation.

We got out of our cars and walked over a trench which the Germans had thrown up to defend the highway when the Red army drove upon Kiev from the south. Beyond the trench was a ravine about 40 feet deep, about 100 feet wide and about a half mile long where it ran into a deeper, wider ravine.

Aloshin did not know why it was called “Babii Yar.”

“In September, 1941.” he said “thousands of jews were brought here. Their clothes were removed and in small groups they were mowed down by automatic gunners. Then they were buried. Recently they were dug up and burned by the Germans wanting to destroy all the evidence.”

We asked him how he first heard of the slayings and he said he heard about it from a German architect who bragged about the mass murders.

We asked him if there remained any Russians in Kiev who witnessed the slayings.

“No I don’t believe there were any Russians who saw them,” he said.

Pretty soon a crowd of peasant women and small boys began to gather. We asked them if they saw the shootings. They said they knew about them but did not see them.

We walked into the ravine with the professor.

“I don’t know what we’ll find.” he said, “because not long ago the Germans came out here as the Red army was advancing and burned the bodies on huge stoves.”

Alsohin said the digging up of the bodies and the burning was done by Russian war prisoners, some of whom went crazy after the grisly business was completed.

“One of these went about Kiev screaming, ‘I can’t live any more. The earth is moving.’” he said.

We walked along the ditch, which seemed to be just sand. Here and there were such things as fingers without hands. At another place there was a half burned shoe with flesh inside. there were several bones about. We also uncovered lots of broken burned spectacles. There were several pairs of broken false teeth.

We went back to the city. Finally the authorities took us back to the ravine. A commission was holding an investigation prior to making a report to the central committee investigating atrocities.

We were introduced to three men, all Jews, who reported that they were formerly Red army soldiers who had been captured in Kiev and later brought here to burn bodies. They were Efimir Vilkis, 33; Loenid Ostrovsky, 31, and Vladimir Davidov, 28.

They said they were captured when Kiev fell to the Germans and were put in a concentration camp.

Vilkis did most of the talking. he said that on Aug. 14 1943, he and the other war prisoners were rounded up and brought to a huge dugout near the ravine. There were about 100 soldiers with him, including Ostrovsky and Davidov. About five days later the Germans marched him and the others into Babii Yar and given them shovels told them to dig in the soft sand.

“We dug and began to come to bodies.” Vilkis said. “There were hundreds of them. They made us take large tongs and drag these bodies up here. The Germans then made a layer of wood and then a layer of bodies and poured gasoline over them and set them on fire.”

Vilkis said hundreds of bodies were burned in this manner. Asked how many he himself dragged to the fires, he said he guessed about 4,000 or 5,000.

After the bodies were burned, Vilkis said, with the others nodding ascent, the Germans used huge crushers to crush the bones and destroy the evidence.

About Aug. 28 he saw the Germans building a new pyre. The word got around among the prisoners and they assumed that they were to be shot and burned.

We began trying to figure out some way to escape and the best way seemed to be to make a key to fit the lock on our dugout door,” he explained. One of the prisoners was a former locksmith and he made such a key from a spoon.

A few nights later Vilkis said he and the other prisoners unlocked the dugout door, rushed into the ravine and escaped.


Image
Soviet Special Commission 1943 - pyre and dugout.

"The photograpth above is one of the materials taken by the Soviets shortly after liberation in September 1943. The relevance will become clear in the 1943 Associated Press report below. Supposedly 100 Jewish Soviet POWs lived in this dugout while they burned the 50 000 victims of Babi Yar, August 1943. They escaped by fashioning a key for the lock of the dugout out of a spoon, although how a lock or door fitted on that dugout is not clear; personally I would have used the spoon to dig my way out." :)

http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/2 ... -babi-yar/

..........

While the killing was going on, some of the Jews' Ukrainian neighbors looked on, enjoyed the show and ate a picnic lunch.

Babi Yar was part of the War Against the Jews in the Ukraine.It was the culmination of an effort that murdered over 700,000 Ukrainian Jews at the hands of the Germans and their Romanian and Ukrainian allies. The ravine itself became a favorite killing ground of the Nazis and their collaborators, and the site for the murder of Gypsies and Russian POWs as well as Jews, although it was overwhelmingly Jews whose corpses populated the ravine.

Babi Yar was never the site of any kind of memorial, although dissident Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko wrote a haunting poem in 1961 decrying the massacre and the attitude of the locals to what happened to the Jews there.
http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com.au/200 ... ilton.html


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Re: GX3938SG-260943-105 Babi Yar from the air, 26.9.1943 . . .

Postby Werd » 1 week 1 day ago (Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:58 am)

Kladderadatsch wrote:. . .I made an interesting discovery today: http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/. Amazing collection of high-res scans of maps and aerial recon photos from the war, and guess what? Kiev is there, and most importantly, so is the famous image GX3938SG-260943-105, uncropped and crystal clear.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/kievaer ... 3-105.html

The image is so large that, depending on your browser settings, it may be tricky to find the right spot (you'll have to move the scroll bars). So here's a reduced image, to help you orient yourself:

Image

The area outlined in red corresponds approximately to the image from Ball's book. For comparison, the area corresponding to the image from the USHMM which Romanov and Co. make such a big deal about being more comprehensive ("OK, so Ball "missed" most of the ravine in his "analysis". For those who know deniers' methods this is not really surprising . . . "), is outlined in yellow.

(If you use the zoom feature on your browser, you can zoom in to very high levels of resolution on the wwii-photos-maps site, and of course, you can zoom out for the bigger picture.)

Naturally, the question which this larger image now raises is, Considering that the photograph in question was taken on September 26, 1943, during precisely that period when, as we've seen above, the Germans were supposedly digging up and burning thousands of bodies, what evidence, if any, can be seen that would support this story?

To play devil's advocate for a moment, the one thing in the area that does stand out as odd is just this feature . . .

Image

right across from the cemetery on the other side of the ravine. Could these be the demonic grills on which the Nazis burned the murdered Jews of Babi Yar?

Consider this. By my count, there are nine full lines to the feature. It would be hard to determine their length with accuracy, but a rough ballpark estimate can perhaps be derived by comparing them to the base of the triangle made by the cemetery across the ravine:

Image

You can check for yourself, but I get a ratio of about 6 to 1 for the two lines. Using Google Maps (see the "reference images" below for a full view), we can get a rough estimate of 500 meters for the base of the triangle . . .

Image

and so the lines in the feature would be something like 500 / 6 = 83.3 meters. That's very approximate, of course, but assuredly in the ballpark. So if we assume that the feature lines are indeed grills, that would mean that the Nazis laid out some 750 (9 * 83.3) meters of Jewish tombstones, railway track and cemetery fencing (and that's just the linear measure; I won't even try to estimate the lines' width) for their giant Kiev Babi-cue in September '43. Are there any witness statements to corroborate this measurement?

Very interesting. As it turns out that photo IS taken from the relevant time period.
The air photo taken of the ravine of Babi Yar on September 26, 1943 shows a placid and peaceful valley. Neither the vegetation nor the topography has been disturbed by human activity. There are no burning sites, no smoke, no excavations, no fuel depots, and no access roads for the transport of humans or fuel. We can conclude with certainty from this photo that no part of Babi Yar was subjected to topographical changes of any magnitude right up to the Soviet reoccupation of the area.

https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/10/2/5569

So hoaxers would have nowhere to run.

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Re: Bodies at Babi Yar, John Gibbons Reporting

Postby Hannover » 1 week 1 day ago (Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:32 pm)

Werd:
Your points relate to this thread:

'CONTRADICTED / the impossible claim that corpses were exhumed, cremated, disappeared'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12001

The "Holocau$t Indsutry" can absurdly claim that '6M Jews & 5M others' corpses magically disappeared, but then they claim that the enormous human remains still exist in known locations, yet no such mass graves can be shown.

Also, on Babi Yar, if the the claimed 34,000 corpses supposedly disappeared then why did Jews try to find them? They came up empty. LOL
see:
!! Excavation Result: No Enormous Human Remains as Alleged at Babi Yar !! ... of course
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11314

Also, those linear sections in the photo look like rows of hay / straw, or plowed up rows, both quite common. If they were the laughable 'grills', smoke and a lot human traffic, trucks etc. would be visible.

Image

- Hannover

"Does anybody seriously believe something so totally ridiculous?"
- Ron Unz
Last edited by Hannover on Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: GX3938SG-260943-105 Babi Yar from the air, 26.9.1943 . . .

Postby Werd » 1 week 1 day ago (Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:34 pm)

Kladderadatsch wrote:Considering that the photograph in question was taken on September 26, 1943, during precisely that period when, as we've seen above, the Germans were supposedly digging up and burning thousands of bodies, what evidence, if any, can be seen that would support this story?

Is that what you got out of this quotation:
According to Sonderkommando survivor Vladimir Davydov, on September 25-26, incineration action had been almost finished. (Yevstafjeva, Nakhmanovich, op. cit., p. 148). The last phase of this action consisted of brushing things up - dismantling camouflage, leveling earth, building one last pyre (ibid.)

I'm not sure how that implies large scale work like you think it does.


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