The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:06 pm)

The most important Photograph

An extremely intense and interesting discussion is occurring on the Skeptic Forum at: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18857&start=80. I have tried several times using different names to get on board and participate in the discussion--but I have been blocked. Some time ago when I challenged Michael Shermer who seems to be connected with that forum to debate me on the Deanna Spingola Show, he refused. The subject of the current debate on their forum centers on something I wrote on my website as follows:

Carbon monoxide was supposedly used to murder two million Jews in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor and elsewhere—more than twice as many as were supposedly killed with cyanide from Zyklon-B . So, where were the piles or pits of bright Cherry RED corpses? Corpses of CO poisoning are well known to be bright Cherry RED with only rare exceptions. But the supposed “eyewitnesses” never, ever, even mentioned such unforgettable spectacles. On the contrary, they insisted that the bodies were either “blue” (Kurt Gerstein, for example) or “unremarkable.” There is one exception, however, and that is a doctor Kurt Leidig who claimed to have seen an experimental gassing of Russians in a gas van at Sachsenhausen resulting in red corpses. He was smart enough to know, obviously, that any forensic doctor could not possibly have been so stupid as to claim the corpses were anything but red.

Image

The image above is probably the best of many available today showing what corpses from cyanide and carbon monoxide poisoning look like. It is also used in the logo for my website. This stunning image is from the Textbook of Maritime Medicine .http://textbook.ncmm.no/medical-challenges-on-board/501-claas-buschmann. "Fig. 10.9.2: Bright red lividity on the dorsal side of the body as the expression of lethal carbon monoxide poisoning. Livor mortis is bright red in cases of carbon monoxide or hydrocyanide poisoning (or in cases where the corpse is kept in cold storage). Carbon monoxide is a colourless and odourless gas that arises, for example, from incomplete fuel combustion. Thus it is always necessary – primarily for self-protection – to consider or exclude carbon monoxide poisoning, particularly when bodies with bright red lividity are found in engine rooms, after engine room fires (automatic carbon dioxide fire extinguishing system!) or in boiler houses."

Piles of corpses have been misused to condemn Germany—but, it has NEVER been claimed in any western trials (except possibly for the Leidig testimony) that any of the corpses were RED in color. So, what about all those “eyewitnesses” to alleged mass gassings of millions of Jews with carbon monoxide (from diesel or gasoline engines) in the Aktion Reinhardt camps (Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor) and even Chelmno? What about those piles, even mountains, of naked corpses that countless people were supposedly able to see? Wouldn't the “eyewitnesses” have noticed that spectacular coloring? Of course, they would have been stunned. They would have remembered it years later for any of the countless, anti-Nazi war crimes trials if they were not simply lying. What they “remembered” at best were simply the black-and-white photographs that we are all programmed to remember. Readers should confirm for themselves the dramatic coloring by Google-searching on the internet for “images” linked to “cherry red lividity.” Were all of the “eyewitnesses” color-blind? Of course, not! They were simply telling whatever came into their heads, even the clumsiest of lies, to support the hoax and completely exonerate themselves, if possible. They knew what was expected of them. Although the reference materials of that era made it clear (text without color photos) that corpses from cyanide or carbon monoxide poisoning would be “cherry red,” that had no effect in the countless, farcical trials of NS era defendants. What mattered was that the hoax be embedded on paper and that the Germans as a people be guilty forever. It was like “original sin”with an anti-German twist. Nonetheless, those clumsy lies also carried within them the time bombs for the hoax's total destruction today. The victorious Allies, and especially the Jews with their age-old traditions of hate and mass murder and lying, have convicted themselves instead. They were and still are the real monsters, the natural-born killers, the genocidal maniacs, aliens from another world of lies and hatred for everything that is not Jewish. For the rest—for the depraved victors of WW2—holocaust propaganda is merely a less violent continuation of their own racist wars against those hardworking and uppity Germans.


Perhaps some people from this forum would care to join in and help liven things up. For the hoaxers, the subject is an existential one.

The following quote is from: American Journal of Public Health, March 1952, page 262.
In a-l-l of the fatalities from acute
carbon monoxide poisoning in which the
victim was found dead at the scene, a
conspicuous finding was the characteristic
pink or cherry red post-mortem
lividity of carboxyhemoglobin in the
skin of the dependent portions of the
body. These suggillations are readily
distinguishable, because of their color,
from ordinary post-mortem lividity.


The following quote is from: D.A.L. Bowen "Medical Investigations in Cases of Sudden Death," British Medical Journal, 1 April 1967, page 35:

Poisoning

The possibility of poisoning must be considered when apparently healthy persons are found dead at home without signs of injury. Carbon monoxide poisoning may be diagnosed easily, because its inhalation in lethal quantities produces a characteristic cherry red coloration in the areas of hypostasis. A similar reddish hue is seen in cases of cyanide poisoning.



The following quote is from: "Poisonous Gases in Submarines," The British Medical Journal, May 1, 1915, page 769.
The symptoms of poisoning by CO in most cases may be said to be quite sudden unconsciousness without any preliminary manifestations, because, as a rule, the victim is suddenly exposed to a somewhat concentrated gas; the
chief point about this unconsciousness is that the victim retains an exceptionally bright colour, due to the fact that
COHb has a bright cherry-red tint, which, when seen through the skin, merely strikes the observer as a high
colour. Unless aid is speedily rendered, this unconsciousness is verv rapidly followed by death---so rapidly, indeed,
that sudden unconsciousness and death constitute practically the whole picture. The records of cases of more
gradual poisoning come chiefly from explorers in coal mines after an explosion who have met with the gas as
the principal part of " after-damp." In these cases the symptoms described are those mainly of buzzing in the
head and throbbing in the neck, coupled with the very important symptom of great muscular weakness (preventing
or hindering escape), mental activity with confusion, and difficulty of connected attention. This stage
may last, perhaps, a few minutes, during which the weakness increases, and then, if nothing is done, insensibility
supervenes as in the sudden cases. In the air that is being respired a percentage of 0.17 is highly dangerous,
and of 1 almost inevitably fatal.

The essential treatment is removal to fresh air (this at times seems for a moment to increase the symptoms),
where artificial respiration should be performed. Strychnine hypodermically, or oxygen inhalations with a mask,
should be tried in addition; the trouble is that COHb is a very stable compound dissociated with difficulty.”
The victim described above in the highlighted text is still alive but unconscious and has a "bright colour"--but still not cherry red.


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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:34 pm)

The topic was also discussed earlier on this forum at: http://www.codoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6645

Since that time it has come to my attention that the Soviets were claiming they found red corpses in connection with their diesel gas van investigations (for the Kharkov and Krasnodar show trials in 1943. Also, a Dr. Theodore Friedrich Leidig from the Kriminal Technisches Institut (KTI), an official forensic crime lab, claimed to have seen red corpses after an experimental gas van gassing in Sachsenhausen. David Irving was taken in by that story. Shame on David Irving, once again. It was merely a repeat of the same Soviet propaganda that had been used in 1943 in the Kharkov and Krasnodar show trials where the Soviets insisted that the Germans had used carbon monoxide to murder Soviet citizens in gas vans with diesel engine exhaust. No doubt, there would have been some accidental gassings in connection with the widespread use of producer gas vehicles throughout the war and that is what probably was involved here if there is any truth in Leidig's story at all--and nothing more sinister than that. A forensic pathologist like Leidig would have been expected to determine the cause of death precisely. After the war, such incidents would have been so useful for supporting the hoax--at least the Soviet version of the extermination by gas hoax. Such Soviet evidence seemed to have gone almost entirely unnoticed in the West until many years later. The fact that it was Soviet POWs who were supposedly gassed in Sachsenhausen should have already alerted everyone as to what was really involved here. The Soviets and Russians were obviously trying to take the ultimate victim prize away from the Jews and give it to themselves instead.

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Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby astro3 » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:47 am)

OK but what about this argument that CO gives a blue-hued corpse:
C.Provan, ‘The Blue Color of the Jewish Victims at Belzec Death Camp - and Carbon Monoxide Poisoning’ The Revisionist Journal, 2004,2,2.
http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/2/Provan159-164.html

Blood is blue when the haemoglobin lacks oxygen, and he is saying that CO can give this effect by blocking the oxgen absorption.

If I'm right - and please correct me if I'm not - cyanide does ALWAYS give a pink corpse - because of the cherry-red ‘cyanhemoglobin’ that is formed - but (C.Provan argues) carbon monoxide can give either pink-red or bluish hue to a corpse.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:18 am)

astro3 wrote:OK but what about this argument that CO gives a blue-hued corpse:
C.Provan, ‘The Blue Color of the Jewish Victims at Belzec Death Camp - and Carbon Monoxide Poisoning’ The Revisionist Journal, 2004,2,2.
http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/2/Provan159-164.html

Blood is blue when the haemoglobin lacks oxygen, and he is saying that CO can give this effect by blocking the oxgen absorption.

If I'm right - and please correct me if I'm not - cyanide does ALWAYS give a pink corpse - because of the cherry-red ‘cyanhemoglobin’ that is formed - but (C.Provan argues) carbon monoxide can give either pink-red or bluish hue to a corpse.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7595295
J Forensic Sci. 1995 Jul;40(4):596-8.
Should coroners be able to recognize unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths immediately at the death scene?
Risser D, Bönsch A, Schneider B.
Source

Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Vienna, Austria.
Abstract

The aim of this retrospective survey of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths in Vienna was to determine whether the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis is a reliable finding for the coroner to suspect a carbon monoxide-related death immediately at the death scene. In addition, we investigated the recognition pattern of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths by Viennese coroners between 1984 and 1993. Therefore, we analyzed autopsy reports of postmortems performed at the Viennese Institute of Forensic Medicine between 1984 and 1993. The study involved 182 unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths: 92 females and 90 males. We found a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. In 98.4% of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis were clearly cherry-pink. During the 10-year study period Viennese coroners recognized only 61% of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths immediately at the death scene. The percentage of unrecognized carbon monoxide fatalities with a clear cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis almost doubled from 1984 to 1993. The older the victim, the worse the coroners recognition. In summary, we have shown that coroners should be able to recognize unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths immediately at the death-scene, because fresh corpses with carboxyhemoglobin levels greater than 31% show a clear cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis. Therefore, coroners should be encouraged to examine naked corpses thoroughly, especially regarding the color of livor mortis. Thus, a carbon monoxide-related death can be recognized immediately and the source of gas release identified as soon as possible protecting people who otherwise would also be at risk of poisoning.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Dresden » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:27 am)

Thank you for that excerpt, Kingfisher. I still say that is one of the top reasons I don't believe in the Holocaust.
Such a high percentage of the "gassed" corpses would have been cherry red, or pink, that it would have been impossible to miss; it would have been shocking(shocking pink?), eery, and surreal, and EVERY "eyewitness" who claimed to have seen piles, or "gas chambers" full of naked gassed corpses would not have failed to mention it; yet none of them did!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:22 am)

The quick answer to Astro3's question is: "there is absolutely NO merit to Provan's arguments--at all."

Provan's essay is one of the most thoroughly stupid and dishonest pieces of pseudo-scientific gibberish one can find anywhere. That it was ever published in a "revisionist" journal is shocking--but the reasons are complicated. Perhaps Germar Rudolf will explain himself. I suspect it was Germar who had found the Walter Deckert essay, a central piece of evidence, to begin with for Provan, a fellow "Chrisitian," and had even defended its thoroughly bogus theory without looking deeper into the technical literature. An answer to Provan was my own essay at: http://www.nazigassings.com/Provan.html There among other issues I discussed the German essays by Klimmer(1943) and Luce(1936) as well as the American Von Oettingen (1944) which thoroughly refuted Deckert.
[6] Von Oettingen, W. F., “Carbon Monoxide: It's Hazards and the Mechanism of its Action,” Public Health Bulletin No. 290, United States Public Health Service, Washington, DC (1944).

[8] Luce, Ferdinand, “Experimentelle Untersuchungen über acute, kombinierte Lösungsmittelvergiftungen (Experimental studies on acute, combined solvent poisoning),” Archiv für Gewerbepathologie und Gewerbehygiene, vol. 7, (1936); pp. 437-51.

[9] Klimmer, Otto. R, “Beitrag zur Kenntnis der Vergiftungen durch Verbrennungsgase (Poisonings by gases of combustion),” Naunyn-Schmiedebergs Archiv für experimentelle Pathologie und Pharmakologie, vol. 201, (1943); pp. 69-98. Note that the works of Luce and Klimmer are not in mining journals either.

But even my own lengthy answer (Blue Corpses...) contained a serious flaw arising from my false belief at the time that deoxygenated blood would ever appear blue--as in death from asphyxiation. The simple truth is that it does not. Contrary to Astros3's suggestion; blood is NOT blue when the haemoglobin lacks oxygen! It can only appear "bluish" by c-o-m-p-a-r-i-s-o-n or in contrast to orxygen-rich blood. It is entirely comparable to the well-known psychological phenomenon of a small gray area appearing blue in color when it is surrounded by a larger red field. Doctors use the terms "cyanotic" or "cyanosis" to describe the subtle, even very subtle, differences in the appearance of the skin in those places where oxygen-poor blood sometimes collects such as in the finger tips, or lips, or around the nostrils, or in varicose vains. When Provan insisted that those terms were just a medical way of saying "blue,"--he lied. But he also lied about many other key items as my "Blue corpse" rebuttal shows. Thomas Kues picked up on what I wrote and helped clarify the issues. http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2011/06/skin-discoloration/

It is well worth noting that although cyanosis is indeed a rather subtle phenomenon which requires some experience and training to identify, there is nothing subtle about the bright cherry RED coloring in nearly all corpses from CO poisoning. The cherry RED coloring is stunning! Dr. William B. Lindsey, Ph. D in chemistry and a revisionist witness for Zuendel, had first described the phenomenon to me in 1983 as being comparable to the intense coloring of a lobster after it had been boiled. To those people who have objected to my use of a corpse in my logo, I suggest they do not know what good evidence is even when it stares them in the face. More later.

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Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:56 pm)

Some information from my website about the Soviet gassing claims from 1943 but supported after the war by the Leidig testimony seems especially relevant here:

Homicidal Gas Vans

In 1943 the Soviets held show trials to convince the world that the Germans had been using gas vans to murder Soviet citizens with the exhaust gases from diesel engines. The proceedings at Krasnodar and Kharkov are described in The Verdict. http://www.nazigassings.com/PDFs/KrasnodarKharkovtrials1.pdf From the indictment for the Krasnodar trial on page 49 we have the following:
Medico-legal experts who exhumed and examined bodies found in an anti-tank ditch near Krasnodar stated in their postmortem findings on 29th June, 1943: “The skin, skeletal muscles and mucous membranes of lips, stomach, intestines, pericardium and peritoneum were either a pale pink or bright cherry colour, also noted in some cases in sections of internal organs such as the kidneys, lungs and heart. Spectroscopic and chemical examinations of the blood and portions of organs removed for biopsy showed that in 523 cases out of 623 bodies, death was caused by carbon monoxide poisoning.” As established by the investigation similar “gas lorries,” which were nicknamed “murder vans,” were used by the Germans for murdering peaceful Soviet citizens not only in Krasnodar but also in Kharkov. These vans, as testified by the German defendants in the present case and also by witnesses who witnessed the crimes committed by the Germans, are large closed trucks of dark grey colour, driven by Diesel engines. The vans are lined inside with galvanized iron and have air-tight folding doors at the back. The floor is equipped with a wooden grating under which passes a pipe with apertures. This pipe is connected to the exhaust pipe of the engine. The exhaust gases of the Diesel engine, containing highly concentrated carbon monoxide, enter the body of the van, causing rapid poisoning and asphyxiation of the people locked up in the van.

Unwittingly, the Soviets totally undermined themselves by insisting that the CO came from diesel exhaust. Diesel exhaust contains hardly any carbon monoxide, even under heavy engine loads. If the engines had simply been idling (no load on the engine) with the vehicles parked as suggested by the infamous unsigned letter from Becker to Rauff in Nuremberg File PS-501, the carbon monoxide levels would have been practically nil and the exhaust gases would have been harmless except for the heat. Death, if it occurred, would NOT have been from carbon monoxide at all. The Soviet, purported “medico-legal” investigations could have only been a sham.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:04 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg
You are 100 % correct.
Regards
Jerzy

From my collection:

The Toxicity of Fumes from Diesel Engine
under Four Different Running Conditions


By R. E. Pattle, H. Stretch, F. Burgess, K. Sinclair, and J. A. G. Edginton
The British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 1957, 14, pp. 47-55

Download printable PDF version (3.2 MB) (8-16 min with dial-up connection)
For PDF Files you need Adobe Acrobat Reader. This program is available for free at http://www.adobe.com.

http://vho.org/GB/c/FPB/ToxDiesel.html

....................
Nizkor Lies about the Toxicity of Diesel Exhaust

Some comments to “The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine under Four Different Running Conditions” [1]

by Friedrich Paul Berg


http://www.nazigassings.com/nizkorlies.html


Jerzy

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:54 am)

My thanks to Jerzy Ulicki-Rek for his efforts at the Skeptic Forum where my own presence is blocked. The hoax-believers should read and refer to medical essays that are focused on CO fatalities and NOT those which merely mention CO in passing.

But why is page 83 missing from Ullicki-Rek's own excellent essay about the IRC report about the concentration camps? Page 83 seems to be the most important page by far from the entire report.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby astro3 » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:27 pm)

Thanks everyone, that is most interesting. Cyanide poisoning likewise blocks hemoglobin oxygen absorption, and gives a cherry-red or pink corpse, does it not? It forms the red-coloured complex ‘cyanhemoglobin.’

So, if no pink-coloured corpses were visible in the camps at the end of WW2 (and we may imagine Charles Larsen the top US army pathologist walking around at Dachau and Auschwitz at the War's end, checking on this matter) that showed no deaths from CO. We're all agreed upon that. Did it also show no deaths from cyanide?

Or, to go back to Kingfisher's Abstract, how could death from CO be inferred from a pink hue, if cyanide gives a similar effect?

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:47 pm)

The cherry red or pink coloring could be caused by either CO, or cyanide, or possibly even by other causes. No one as far as I know is claiming that a cherry-RED coloring is caused necessarily by one or the other. But, the total absence of any such coloring--even among many thousands of naked corpses--is overwhelming evidence that the death by gassing claims are totally false and that the self-described "eyewitnesses" ALL lied!

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Learn everything athttp://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:51 pm)

"But why is page 83 missing from Ullicki-Rek's own excellent essay about the IRC report about the concentration camps? Page 83 seems to be the most important page by far from the entire report."

Friedrich Paul Berg.
I did have the access to IRC report for very short time and under pretty restricted condition. :)
Please tell me in which part of the report is the page 83 you mentioned?
I still have some pictures of report which I didn't published .Maybe -with a bit of luck-this page is among them.
Regards
Jerzy
Last edited by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:34 pm)

The following is so important:
No Evidence Of Genocide One of the most important aspects of the Red Cross Report is that it clarifies the true cause of those deaths that undoubtedly occurred in the camps toward the end of the war. Says the Report: ‘In the chaotic condition of Germany after the invasion during the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims. Itself alarmed by this situation, the German Government at last informed the ICRC on February 1st, 1945 ... In March 1945, discussions between the President of the ICRC and General of the S.S. Kaltenbrunner gave even more decisive results. Relief could henceforth be distributed by the ICRC, and one delegate was authorised to stay in each camp ...’ (Vol. III, p. 83).


Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything athttp://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Occam's Razor » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:54 pm)

Hi astro3, as far as I know you have some chemical knowledge, I hope it's not too confusing.

Cyanide ions don't react with hemoglobin, they block cellular respiration in the mitochondria of tissue cells. Cyanide ions form stable coordination complexes (1) with Fe(III) ions, but not with Fe(II) ions.
The iron in the hemoglobin molecule is always in the Fe(II) state, except for a tiny amount that has accidentally been oxidized to Fe(III). The uptake of oxygen by red blood cells does not involve an oxidation of the Fe(II) to Fe(III) in the hemoglobin molecule.
Therefore cyanide does not react to a significant amount with hemoglobin.

Tissue cells, on the other hand, contain large amounts of Fe(III). Iron ions are a central part of cytochrome enzymes. These enzymes form the last part of the electron transport chain during the oxidative phosphorylation (2) in the mitochondria, where electrons are transferred to molecular oxygen in the last step, which is thereby reduced to water. When these cytochrome c enzymes accept electrons and then release them again the iron in these molecules does change its oxidation state. The iron cycles between Fe(II) and Fe(III), and that at a rapid rate. If cyanide is present in the cell, it reacts with the iron when it is in the Fe(III) state. And because this coordination complex is very stable, the iron is locked in the Fe(III) state. It cannot go back to Fe(II). As a result, the electron chain stops more or less and ATP production decreases dramatically.
Many cells can bypass this block to a certain amount, and many cells can even produce energy without oxygen (glycolysis). But brain cells can't and they are the first that die. But generally, the result of severe cyanide poisoning is that tissue cells cannot utilize oxygen any more, because the electron chain is blocked. It's a kind of internal suffocation. And because they can't use the oxygen, they don't take it up from the blood. Normally the blood in the arteries is rich in oxygen. Then the body cells take up the oxygen and the blood in the veins has low oxygen content. Which is why veins look blue through the skin. After cyanide poisoning the blood cannot release the oxygen into the cells any more. The blood in the veins remains saturated with oxygen. The result is a very "unnaturally healthy" rosy skin color. Like a sunburn, or if you slap yourself a little bit. And that's how victims of CO poisoning look, too, before livor (3) mortis appears. The difference is that during CO poisoning the skin color changes because the CO reacts with hemoglobin, and the reaction product has a red color. During cyanide poisoning the blood in the veins is red, because it is saturated with oxygen just like the blood in the arteries, and during CO poisoning the skin color changes because the blood in both the veins and arteries is full of CO-hemoglobin, which also has a red color. Looks like a sunburn.

That's why I find the picture that FPB shows on his website a little misleading. The dark pink patches are livor mortis, which is only visible after a few hours. If they had burned the victims immediately, they wouldn't have seen livor mortis. But shortly before death and then until livor mortis forms, the victims would have shown this rosy skin color, like a sunburn. Maybe not like a severe sunburn in every case, but definitely noticeably. And that's true for both CO and cyanide victims, despite the slightly different method of action.

Mr. Berg, I recall that you had another photo an your website, that showed the rosy hand of a female CO victim. Can't find it now, but I thought it was more appropriate. I mean, livor mortis would have formed after a few hours, and then it would have been a truly spectacular sight. But the rosy color immediately after the gassing, though not quite as spectacular, should have been noticed by everyone. I mean, several hundreds or thousands enter the gas chamber, and then after the gassing they all look like they have a sunburn. At least you should explain the difference between the immediate effect on skin color and livor mortis. The color of livor mortis is much more intense, because the blood is now concentrated in these areas.

Ok, wikipedia says livor mortis can start 20 minutes after death:
Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours.



So, if no pink-coloured corpses were visible in the camps at the end of WW2 (and we may imagine Charles Larsen the top US army pathologist walking around at Dachau and Auschwitz at the War's end, checking on this matter) that showed no deaths from CO. We're all agreed upon that. Did it also show no deaths from cyanide?

According to official lore, the mass gassings were stopped several months before the end of the war (order from Himmler, which certainly nobody can find). And the photos with piles of corpses at war's end all come from places where no mass gassings are alleged. So there's really no need to prove that these people were not gassed. According to official doctrine they weren't gassed. The method of the hoaxters is always the same. They tell you about the holocaust and mass gassings, and then they show you the pictures from Dachau and Bergen-Belsen with the corpse piles. But they don't try to explain them. They wait and hope that you will come to the right (wrong) conclusions, that these pictures somehow show gassing victims. While they know perfectly well that they don't.
It's very easy to explain to unsuspecting believers that these photos can't prove the holocaust. And that's often the first seed of doubt in these people.
But the fact that no eyewitness mentioned a rosy color of any gassing victim strongly suggests that the whole story is BS. And that applies to both CO and cyanide gassings.

Btw., I don't think that Charles Larsen or any other official from a western country "walked around" in Auschwitz at the end of the war to investigate anything. The Soviets didn't allow that.

Or, to go back to Kingfisher's Abstract, how could death from CO be inferred from a pink hue, if cyanide gives a similar effect?

Don't know the exact difference in color. Pink is rather livor mortis after CO poisoning. As I said, shortly before death and until livor mortis sets in it's more a rosy color, like a sunburn. Livor mortis is, when the blood follows gravity to the lowest parts of the body and settles there. That's why the color of livor mortis is so intense. The reason for the rosy skin color after a sunburn is the same as after cyanide poisoning: The color comes from the blood. After a sunburn you have increased blood supply because of the inflammation. Don't know if you can tell from the color whether someone died form CO or from cyanide. Maybe you could see a difference if you have two fresh corpses to compare, but then there are probably individual difference in skin color etc. that would make that difficult.
As far as I know CO-hemogobin and normal hemoglobin with oxygen have different absorption spectra. Therefore there should be a visible difference. I think the pink livor mortis is CO poisoning. But before livor mortis, I don't know.


Hope this helps.

PS: These guys from the sceptic forum are clowns.


Footnotes:
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_chemistry
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_phosphorylation
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis

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Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
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Re: The most important Photograph

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 6 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:21 am)

Friedrich .
Thanks for pointing my attention to the fact that page 83 was removed.I was not aware of it.Bellow is a copy of my e-mail i send to administrator of http://www.imageshack.

Users be ware! Imageshack will censor you pictures if they don't agree with the official lie !!!

Your name:Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
Email address: [email protected]
Subject: Criminal action on behalf of imageshack
Reason: Report Missing Images
Email body

Dear imageshack.
I wonder who gave you the the right to remove a picture from my website .
Here is the link.
We are talking about the IRC report which is a public domain and nobody can claim any"copy rights" in this case.

I DEMAND to have the missing picture reinstated at once and at the same time I waiting for you explanation.

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
26.10.2012


Thank you for your email! An automated response has been sent to [email protected]. If required, your email will be answered as soon as possible.

http://www.polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic ... 202#p45202


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