The most important Photograph / corpse color

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hermod
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:11 pm)

Atigun wrote:Sorry, Fritz but from what I've seen of Nessie's reasoning, both of your links refer to livor mortis and so have nothing to do with ante mortem red discoloration from CO poisoning. The word "immediately" refers only to the attendant medical personnel's ability to react correctly to the red discoloration after it has appeared with the onset of livor mortis. According to Nessie, the initial red discoloration of CO poisoning presents as no more than a "ruddy complexion" that is essentially undetectable as a symptom to all but medical professionals. The pronounced red discoloration appears only with the onset of livor mortis.


As there is no reason to assume that red blood cells full of carboxyhemoglobin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboxyhemoglobin) would sediment faster or slowlier than red blood cells full of oxyhemoglobin & deoxygenated hemoglobin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemoglobin#Oxyhemoglobin), the rules of livor mortis should logically be relevant to the bright red discoloration. So it can be said that the bright red discoloration normally starts 20 minutes to 3 hours after death, culminates within 6-12 hours, and there is no discoloration in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object (piled bodies) (contrarily to what I've previously said in this thread (sorry for my mistake)).

When the heart stops functioning and is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity.

Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body. The intensity of the color depends upon the amount of reduced hemoglobin in the blood. The discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, in which capillaries are compressed. As the vessel walls become permeable due to decomposition, blood leaks through them and stains the tissue. This is the reason for fixation of hypostasis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:14 pm)

Here is some evidence of the cherry red coloring in a living person suffering from CO poisoning: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/712251_4
Image
The "patient" is still alive, obviously. The red coloring is what can be called ante-mortum coloring. He or she may die shortly thereafter, or long thereafter. We cannot know--but more than likely his or her carboxyhemoglobin level is more than 30% and that is an entirely separate issue from the onset, or presence, or absence of livor mortis after death.

So, try real hard, folks to not be confused by the somewhat varying definitions of livor mortis. Some define livor mortis as the appearance of "hypostasis" whereas others, as I suspect the authors of the Ruisser essay, define it simply as the color of a corpse after death--a-n-y-t-i-m-e after death.

Contrary to what Hermod suggests above, the bright red discoloration does NOT have to be associated with livor mortis, or hypostasis, or even death. It will appear in light-skinned people when the carboxyhemoglobin is high enough--whenever.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:07 pm)

So Nessie is claiming that liver mortis HAS TO BE present when there is a corpse that can be identified as suffering from CO poisoning and is also cherry red. This is where he gets the twenty minutes to three hour window from. Berg is arguing that the two are not necessarily connected.

The "patient" is still alive, obviously. The red coloring is what can be called ante-mortum coloring. He or she may die shortly thereafter, or long thereafter. We cannot know--but more than likely his or her carboxyhemoglobin level is more than 30% and that is an entirely separate issue from the onset, or presence, or absence of livor mortis after death.


In other words, Nessie has been wasting page after page on rodoh arguing from a false premise. Now since I am such a masochist, I am going to go back through that thread and see if that point was put to him and if he ignored or avoided it, like he ignored or avoided actually answering how the claims of yellow skin as stated in Wiernik's book could be explained. Will come back with an edit within this post soon...

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:09 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Here is some evidence of the cherry red coloring in a living person suffering from CO poisoning: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/712251_4
Image


I would call this color pink, not cherry red or bright red.


Contrary to what Hermod suggests above, the bright red discoloration does NOT have to be associated with livor mortis, or hypostasis, or even death. It will appear in light-skinned people when the carboxyhemoglobin is high enough--whenever.
[b][i][color=#0000FF]


I was talking about bright red stains as the one below. Too flagrant to have been unnoticed.

Image

Apparently, there was a misunderstanding and we were talking about different levels of discoloration...
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:07 pm)

I believe that Nessie's insistence on the red discoloration appearing noticeably only with the onset of livor mortis was so he could advance his claim that the Germans had time to either cremate or bury all the bodies before the red discoloration became visible to anyone except trained medical professionals. His basic purpose is a defense against FPB's question of why didn't anyone notice that the cadavers of those killed with CO gas were red.

PS. Does anyone know if 'Nessie' is a he, a she, or something else?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Breker » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:25 pm)

Mr. Atigun said to us:
he could advance his claim that the Germans had time to either cremate or bury all the bodies before the red discoloration became visible
Logically speaking that comes back to the obvious and frequently repeated question 'then where are the human remains of all of these alleged Jews?' We really don't think that merely claiming they exist is adequate. We must see authentic exhumations. Those will be rather a long time coming since they do not exist.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:42 pm)

Atigun wrote:I believe that Nessie's insistence on the red discoloration appearing noticeably only with the onset of livor mortis was so he could advance his claim that the Germans had time to either cremate or bury all the bodies before the red discoloration became visible to anyone except trained medical professionals. His basic purpose is a defense against FPB's question of why didn't anyone notice that the cadavers of those killed with CO gas were red.

PS. Does anyone know if 'Nessie' is a he, a she, or something else?

Now you're getting it! I will be posting some extracts from that topic soon. I went through the whole thing looking for just the parts talking about the issue of corpse colour. You will see how ultimately, Nessie changes the game. Someone asks about red colouring in live people due to CO poisoning and how people can still be red and alive with carboxyhemoglobin at 30% whereas 60% ends in fatality and still red colouring of course. Then he talks about the redness associated with lividity or livor mortis and talks about how it can take minimum twenty minutes and upwards of 3 hours to be noticeable and 6 hours to finally set in. He brings oranges to a discussion about apples. He attempts to retain his credibility by saying (after turnagain cornered him more than once) he does not deny that people can be alive with CO poisoning. But then he says this is a different shade or red or rather a ruddy colour which is different from a cherry pink colour of livor mortis. Nessie has more than one tactic but they all fail as you will see in an upcoming post of mine.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:46 pm)

From Fritz on page 9
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 0&start=80

CARBON MONOXIDE (AJFMP 18: 406, 1997; NEJM 360: 1217, 2009).

The colorless, odorless, slightly-lighter-than-air gas (why firemen may crawl at a fire scene) that results from burning carbon in relatively low amounts of oxygen. House fires, defective home heaters, and old-fashioned lamps and generators used during natural disasters (Pub. Health Rep. 126-S1: 108, 2011) are the common sources. Before the era of the catalytic converter, automobile exhaust contained about 5% carbon monoxide. The stuff has a much greater affinity for heme than oxygen does, and the concentration in the atmosphere need not be high to cause trouble. (People have died from being placed near the exhaust pipes of ambulances prior to transport). There's plenty in cigaret smoke.

Carbon monoxide acts in part by tying up hemoglobin. Its affinity for hemoglobin is 200 times that of oxygen. Smokers are likely to have 10% saturation of hemoglobin. Saturation from 20-30% will make you sick (it's at this point that cherry-red lividity may appear). Saturation of 60% or more will probably kill you (less if you've got angina, emphysema, etc.)

Obviously this isn't the whole story, because the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning are not the symptoms of anemia. There are a host of other mechanisms as well. The damage to the cytochromes, endothelium, and lipid membranes are being worked out.

In ACUTE TOXICITY, there is headache, drowsiness, loss muscle strength (carboxymyoglobin) and ultimately confusion and coma.

The pathologist will find cherry-red livor-mortis, but this isn't specific. You can see it in hypothermia, or cyanide poisoning (or the biochemistry-class fluoroacetate poisoning) as well. Fortunately, there are instruments to measure the amount of carbon monoxide in the blood.

* A body that has been refrigerated / cold for a long time can also have cherry-red livor.


Berg on page 13.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47071#p47071

Well, Nessie actually asked an intelligent question for a change, two in fact: "how long does it take for cherry red colouring to appear on the remains of someone who has died of CO poisoning? How long does it last?"

The answer is "immediately" at the time of death--and it even appears before death in many cases. The red coloring on a person of light complexion, a white man for example, appears as soon as the carboxyhemoglobin exceeds 30%. What causes the coloring is NOT death at all--but rather the elevated CO in the blood. That elevated CO in the blood may or may not actually lead to death. In "clinical" cases the living patient may still be rescued from death.

The red coloring lasts for days in the corpse.


Berg page 13 again.
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47086#p47086
As to lividity, that is NOT the only source of the cherry red color. Try to NOT confuse "lividity" with blood color. Lividity is caused by the pooling of the blood, regardless of color, in a corpse due to gravity (beginning 20-30 minutes after death). But the blood would have been bright cherry red much earlier (as soon as it contained more than 30% carboxyhemoglobin). It is confusing. After death the blood sinks to the lowest parts of the corpse, regardless of color. Lividity ONLY refers to the blood which has settled in the lower parts and has managed to appear through the weakened structure of the skin. Unless the skin has pigment or been tanned, the cherry red appears even before death occurs.

It is that coloring which can alert any medical examiner to the danger of CO in the vicinity--even before any lividity appears--or "immediately" after death. The coloring itself is easy to recognize although the significance may not be clear as demonstrated in Vienna.


Scott page 13
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47088#p47088
No, they do mean the tell-tale cherry-red CO coloring is immediate.

Don't confuse the lividity with the cherry-red color. The pathologists tend to use that unfortunate wording because they are experts who understand the concept of the blood pooling (hence the livor or livor mortis) and then the blood becoming visibly fixed in place because the corpse is dead. After circulation of the blood stops, it pools downward by gravity at first and then fixes in place, and this is readily visible to examiners.

But the cherry-red color of the BLOOD does NOT depend upon any kind of pooling or development/fixing process or anything else occurring at all other than the CO having been absorbed into the blood circulatory system in the first place, hence the sickening and even killing of the patient.

The whole point of the Risser article--read the last paragraph of P. 598 again--the Summary is that investigators need to check for the cherry-red coloring on scene so that any dangerous carbon monoxide threats can be removed without delay:

Thus a carbon monoxide-related death can be recognized immediately and the source of gas release identified as soon as possible, protecting people who otherwise would also be at risk of poisoning.

p. 598

_______________________________________________

The authors concede that not all CO poisoning cases or deaths might present with the cherry-red color--some elderly people don't need much persuasion to die, after all. And heavy decomposition confuses the results. But in the overwhelming number of cases, looking for the tell-tale signs of CO poisoning immediately directly impinges upon a CO threat to on-site safety, and rescue workers might also find other patients when they might still be medically treatable if they know or even suspect CO poisonings.

Anyway, the cherry-red color comes from the toxic CO visibly binding with the hemoglobin in the blood, which it does so far more readily than with oxygen. This process occurs as the CO is being absorbed by the body, so there is no time delay here beyond a still-living patient eliminating the CO from the blood--which corpses do not do regardless of the cause of death.



Nessie page 13
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47150#p47150
So we are finding the reason why no one at TII reports seeing cherry red. There bodies are not left lying around for lividity to settle and show as cherry red. Instead bodies are cleared immediately, moved abuot so there any settling takes longer, thrown in graves where the settling will be below what is see from above and other bodies and sand piled on top, further obscuring the cherry red lividity.


Berg page 13
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47158#p47158
What evidence is there that the bodies were "cleared and dumped into a mass grave" in just twenty minutes, or that such a feat was even possible. Didn't the fiendish Nazis want to also check the victim's teeth for gold and jewels--and remove all of that? Until the bodies could have been covered with a layer of soil or sand, even more time would have elapsed.


Nessie page 14
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47160#p47160
Argument from incredulity is a fallacy. The studies I linked to also mention moving the body around and how that slows the settling of the blood and delaying lividity, which would happen as bodies are moved out of the gas chamber and teeth removed. Then 20 minutes is the soonest the cherry red lividity would appear.


Berg page 14
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47163#p47163
[qutoe]Throughout all of this time from the moment of death inside any gas chamber, the blood itself would have been "bright cherry red" even before any lividity might have appeared. The translucent skin itself from the typically pale-skinned, naked Jews would have revealed the intensely RED blood underneath. [/quote]

Nessie page 14
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47444#p47444
The evidence for that claim is?


Turnagain page 14
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47454#p47454
You are simply trying to conflate the red discoloration symptomatic of FATAL CO poisoning with the livor mortis common to almost all cadavers.


Scott page 14
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47458#p47458
Well, for about a dozen years I've been pulling whatever articles in forensic journals and textbooks that I've found. Most of the stuff is already at Mr. Berg's site. This is textbook material not magical mystery ship.

The cherry-red coloring is especially prominent with fair-skinned people. And darker-skinned people are mentioned too in relation to CO poisoning but I don't recall the exact wording now as that was not so relevant to Poland during WWII.

Frostbite makes the flesh look blanched too because it has literally frozen, and warm blood isn't circulating in those extremities, or at least until the unfreezing occurs and then it might look reddened. The process looks a little different with dark-complected people but otherwise is the same.

The Livor Mortis, on the other hand, is the striking contrast between the blanched (white) flesh when the blood pools from gravity after the circulation stops--upon which it thickens and darkens when settled. This happens fairly quickly and the texts give the timing or other considerations. (So , for example, if a body is moved after death, the blanched and darker areas of the flesh from the settling of the blood do not line up properly because the blood doesn't pool again once it thickens.)

In CO poisoning cases the blood color is a bright cherry-red and therefore the Livor Mortis is especially notable in corpses. But the bright cherry-red color of the blood occurs from the uptake of carbon monoxide in the first place, and it doesn't get any brighter with time as the blood pools and settles out of the "blanched" part of the flesh.

I'm not really sure what it takes to make this point. I guess one either gets it or one doesn't.



Turnagain page 15
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47508#p47508
Uh-huh, Wiernik's "yellow" was just a mistranslation. OK, then what about the claims that corpses that had been gassed were white, blue, green and, IIRC, we had one vote for polka dots. Perhaps that was just "spotted." The problem remains, the only person to call the correct discoloration for fatal CO poisoning was a medical doctor. Was he speaking from his knowledge base or from direct observation? Since "gas vans" didn't actually exist, he was speaking from his knowledge base as a doctor.


Nessie page 15
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47509#p47509
Turnagain
You are simply trying to conflate the red discoloration symptomatic of FATAL CO poisoning with the livor mortis common to almost all cadavers......

Some information on livor mortis.

"Livor mortis is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin. When the heart stops functioning and is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours." - Wiki

Some information on CO poisoning

"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red color when converted into carboxyhemoglobin, so poisoned cadavers and even commercial meats treated with carbon monoxide acquire an unnatural reddish hue." - Wiki

So when someone dies the lividity that will be cherry red starts to appear from about 20 minutes to 3 hours after death and is at its maximum by 6 to 12 hours. Considering livor mortis is red by nature and the cherry red takes time to appear, unless bodies were left lying around for hours on end there is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why no one made reference to the bright red colouration of the deceased.





Nessie page 15
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47510#p47510
The cherry red takes from 20 minutes to 3 hours after death to start to appear and is at its maximum by 6 to 12 hours. If the bodies had been dragged from the gas chamber and dumped in the mass graves (where the colour) would be underneath what would be see of the bodies as the blood drains down), when would people see the cherry red lividity?

And in response to Scott...
What ever colour lividity is (since we know it can vary if people are poisoned, carbon monoxide – bright cherry red, cyanide – pink, phosphorous – dark brown etc) it takes the same time to appear, which is from 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Normal livor mortis is reddish anyway, so bodies removed and buried quickly mean no one may see the extreme colour change associated with CO that makes it distinctive, which does not appear until 6 to 12 hours after death. By then the bodies have been buried.

Berg's examples of people with obvious signs of cherry red livor mortis have been dead for up to 6 to 12 hours and have ended up in a mortuary not a grave. The timing issue is important and none of the denier/revisionists are able to deal with it.



Turnagain page 16
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47518#p47518
No, you lie, Nessie. The red discoloration resulting from fatal CO poisoning isn't dependent upon livor mortis. You're simply trying on another of your weasel dodges and it isn't working.



Nessie page 16
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47518#p47518
Where did I say the red colour is dependent on livor mortis? Quote me. The colour comes from the CO poisoning, the livor mortis is where the blood settles in lowest part of the body based on gravity and its position. They are separate processes. You are dodging the important issue of the time it takes for the colour to appear, which since bodies were removed from the chamber and dumped into mass graves explains why no one reports the cherry red.



Turnagain page 16
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47534#p47534
The victims of CO poisoning begin to turn red even before they die. There was a photo posted of a person being resuscitated after suffering from CO poisoning and had already begun to display the bright pink color symptomatic of CO poisoning. Yet here you are driveling on about the onset of livor mortis. Neither were all bodies buried before being cremated. At Treblinka it's claimed that 400,000 were simply gassed and grilled. It's claimed that up to 3000 bodies were piled on each grill until they were set alight.


Nessie page 16
http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=47560#p47560
Here is the NHS and the CDC on the symptoms

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Carbon-mon ... ptoms.aspx (new window)
http://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm (new window)

There is no mention of people turning red.

You have picked the shortest time for lividity to start and ignored it can take up to 6 hours before it becomes really obvious. Plus, bodies are covering other bodies, so unless somehow you could get underneath and look up, the lividity is barely visible. Bergs site has as its main photo of the cherry red lividity a person rolled onto their side. Then the operation was pretty much all day long, so bodies were not lying about to become clearly cherry red. Plus the already buried bodies would have decomposed.


Turnagain page 16
Yet again you natter on about livor mortis while the red discoloration of CO poisoning, especially FATAL CO poisoning, isn't dependent on the onset of livor mortis. Try looking at the photos in my link.



Scott page 16
I guess this is also what you are talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning (new window)

One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine. In pathological (autopsy) examination the ruddy appearance of carbon monoxide poisoning is notable because unembalmed dead persons are normally bluish and pale, whereas dead carbon-monoxide poisoned persons may simply appear unusually lifelike in coloration.[30][31][32] The colorant effect of carbon monoxide in such postmortem circumstances is thus analogous to its use as a red colorant in the commercial meat-packing industry.


That is because the pinkish coloring is indicative of acute CO poisoning, not merely dangerous CO poisonings--and therefore this alone is not good for **preventative** diagnostics.

This should NOT be construed to mean that we cannot have CO poisoning cases with cherry-red coloring EXCEPT with corpses; that is locking the gate after the horse is already gone from the point of preventive medicine.

This statement--common in other articles on CO that I have found by the way--just means that the cherry-red color is NOT a reliable preventative diagnostic indicator because of the highly dangerous levels of CO needed to cause this indication.

But the CO intoxicated deceased do not get any redder with time--just that blanching of the skin may occur, and the bright-red blood does POOL to the lowest points of the cadaver as possible due to the force of gravity, but ONLY while it still has sufficient time after death to remain fluid.

Modern Industrial medicine was started in neutral Sweden after the war because of the prevalence of wood-gas generator fueled trucks and the prevalence therefore of chronic carbon monoxide poisoning among wartime drivers. There are many articles on this subject.

As requested, here cited is an article on chronic vs. acute CO poisoning, and the man shown below (unfortunately only in Black & White) had a bright red face (see article text) and was clearly ALIVE when the photo was taken.

Citation:
Almgren, Sigyn. (Stockholm)
"12 Jahre Erfahrungen auf dem Gebiete der chronische Kohlenoxydvergiftungen in Schweden."
(Twelve years experience in the field of chronic carbon monoxide poisonings in Sweden.)

*Archiv für Gewerbepathologie und Gewerbehygiene*
Band 13 (1954), pp. 97-131.
ISSN: 0365-2564
OCLC: 1778604

The "man with the red face" below is clearly, ALIVE.

http://rodoh.info/forum/download/file.php?id=337



Turnagain page 16
Nice bit of research, Scott. Very informative. I have no doubt, though, that Nessie will reappear with another reference to livor mortis as a reason for nobody noticing that most of the alleged cadavers of the AR camps were pink to cherry red in color. Hide and watch, it's gonna' happen.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:46 pm)

Nessie page 16
The article you quote backs up the fact that the cherry red only appears with lividity, which itself only starts to appear after a minimum of 20 minutes and up to three hours and may just make the person look ruddy and more life like than expected. Who is going to notice that when burying and burning bodies shortly after death?

And
How many times do you have to reminded that such colouration takes time to appear and the bodies were being disposed of shortly after death? You cannot account for that time period.


Scott page 17
No, you've misinterpreted it again.

:roll:

When it comes to emergency response, the classic cherry-red coloring of CO intoxication should NOT be relied upon because even minor cases need treatment. CO should be suspected when other criteria are present and routinely acted upon by emergency responders and healthcare providers.

There is NO reason that the classic cherry-red coloring of the blood will ONLY be present with death; it will be present in any kind of acute case, and the poisoning ceases in fact, upon death.

The red color of the blood does not increase after death, but the Livor Mortis (the visible pooling of the blood into the lower extremities) does change the longer that a corpse is dead, and the blood circulation having consequently stopped; this therefore causes some contrast between where the skin blanches as the blood pools into lower extremities for the short time that the blood still remains fluid. The CO-infused blood remains bright red until substantial decomposition of the body has occurred.

Look at the photo again of the "Sunburn Man." I believe that I'm the one who found this photo in a medical textbook originally but I might be wrong on that. Anyway, although the view is somewhat limited in the photo, I doubt that Sunburn Man has been dead very long as I don't see any Livor Mortis yet. However, we certainly do see the classic cherry-red coloring of his skin--looking like a severe sunburn--that was caused by acute CO poisoning. (I'm guessing that the guy is dead since he is laying on his face and not wearing an oxygen mask, and the blanching of his skin on the arms where he was touched looks like his circulation is either stopped or very low. Look again at the blanching on his upper arms where the paramedics manhandled his body/corpse.

Image

When I was in the long-term care unit after my accident, I noticed that the nurses and doctors were very prone to pinch or push on the skin of the extremities of patients to see how long the blanching lasted. If the patient's circulation was pretty good it didn't last long and returned to normal flesh color immediately. But not if the circulation was poor--a lot of these patients had diabetes and some had even lost limbs. Clinical observations like these are not substitutes for laboratory tests but preventive medicine requires looking out for certain likely things.

By the same token, Austrian researchers in the one paper urged that emergency responders NOT wait for pathology reports about CO fatalities but that they should look for the classic cherry-red coloring of victims on site so that they would be alerted to deal with any ongoing carbon monoxide threats and locate any other potential victims who could still be treated.




Nessie page 17
The evidence you have produced does not back that up. I have shown you NHS and CDC descriptions of symptoms and there is no mention of going red at all. Wiki describes how people are ruddy and after death the body can appear life like. The cherry red does not appear until later.


Turnagain page 18
OK, let's take up some of your shibboleths one at a time, Nessie. First, your claim that the red/pink discoloration of the skin of CO fatal poisoning is dependent on the onset of livor mortis.

"Pink discoloration of SKIN (caps mine) and organs usually indicates the presence of more than 30% carboxyhemoglobin." "In a healthy, middle aged person, a carboxyhemoglobin concentration greater than 50-60% is usually fatal." Handbook of Autopsy Practice. 4th ed. page 425.

So, the pink discoloration of skin manifests at 30% carboxyhemogolobin concentration, well before the lethal concentration of 50-60%. In other words, Nessie, people turn visibly red/pink BEFORE they die and the onset of livor mortis. If you wish to dispute that, please take it up with author/editors of the, "Handbook of Autopsy Practice 4th ed."


Nessie page 18
I do not dispute it. I would point to the sources which say that CO poisoning makes people and look ruddy and the chemist who recognised the redness of those who died in the gas vans. I would also point to how hard it is to diagnose CO poisoning from skin tone alone and the links to checking bodies after death and the symptoms to look for in the living, which do not mention even going red/pink/ruddy. All of that is different from cherry red, which appears later, after death.

Bergs theory rests on the dead from CO poisoning being cherry red and why did no one comment on that? I am saying it is because the obvious cherry red takes longer to appear than it took to dispose of the remains.

I would also point out that why would there be living people suffering from CO poisoning at TII? What was going on there that such is relevant? The people who had CO poisoning were dead.


Turnagain page 18
You claim that it takes longer for the symptomatic red/pink discoloration to appear than it took to dispose of the bodies. Horse frocky. Carboxyhemoglobin quits forming when the victim dies. The red/pink discoloration is dependent upon the percentage of carboxyhemoglobin of the blood, not the onset of livor mortis.

Edit. You are attempting another ruse of Roberto. Find an exception to a condition, etc., not 100% of all victims of CO poisoning display the characteristic red/pink discoloration so it's POSSIBLE, just a statistical anomaly, but it's possible that none of the cadavers turned red before they were...and so on. After several repetitions of, "If one corpse didn't turn red then none of them did," you create a "fact" that none of the cadavers at Treblinka turned red before they were cremated. Nice try but it ain't gonna' fly


nessie page 18
I do not think you have been reading my posts nor the evidence I have linked to. When someone is still alive and the poisoned blood is pumping round their body at most the report is of a reddish or ruddy colour. Then if they die again at first, as the blood is still around their body at most they show that reddish colour and look remarkably well preserved. Not everyone knows that, which is why we have also found reminders to medics to look out for the reddish colour when diagnosing acute CO poisoning. Hence we have one report by a chemist commenting on the bodies coming out of the gas van, as he was one of the few who knew what to look for.

Once death has occurred the blood has time to settle and the capillaries shrink. There is all of the evidence that I have posted which shows that will take 20 minutes to three hours to take place and then 6 to 12 hours to become obvious. That is what happens once the person is dead. That is when the very distinctive cherry red as shown by Bergs image of the woman happens. She has been dead a good while, 6 to 12 hours and has remained lying on her back.




Turnagain page 18
As I said, Nessie, if you don't like the notion that people begin to manifest the red/pink discoloration symptomatic of CO poisoning at ~ 30% carboxyhemoglobin concentration then take it up with the people who wrote/edited "The handbook of Autopsy Practice" 4th ed. I understand perfectly what you're trying to sell, Nessie. You're trying to sell the notion that, of the nearly two million people who allegedly died from CO poisoning, none of them exhibited the symptomatic red/pink discoloration before or at the time of their death. Well, maybe one or two of them but not enough that anyone would notice before all the bodies went up in smoke. Uh-huh.


Nessie page 18
I have no issue with that point. I accept it. I have explained how it fits in with people not reporting cherry red or even the ruddy appearance of those who have just died. The evidence is that bodies were cremated or buried soon after death. The evidence says cherry red does not even start to appear until 20 minutes after death at the earliest and takes up to 6 hours to become clear like the image Berg uses. The evidence states some people will look lifelike after death and have a ruddy appearance, but even for seasoned medics, they need reminding and more to identify that as CO poisoning. So the narrative fits the evidence.


Turnagain page 19
You have "no issue" with the fact that people begin to turn noticeably red/pink at a concentration ~ 30% carboxyhemoglobin just as it states in the "handbook of Autopsy Practice," 4th ed. The handbook then goes on to state that it takes a concentration of 50-60% carboxyhemoglobin to kill the average middle aged healthy adult. In other words, at 30% carboxyhemoglobin people turn red/pink. At 50-60% carboxyhemoglobin, after they have turned pink/red at 30% caboxyhemoglobin they die. You claim that you have "no issue" with that and then contradict that statement by saying that the victims of CO poisoning don't exhibit the symptomatic red discoloration until the onset of livor mortis.


Nessie page 19
Your original reference to the Handbook stated.....

"Pink discoloration of SKIN (caps mine) and organs usually indicates the presence of more than 30% carboxyhemoglobin." "In a healthy, middle aged person, a carboxyhemoglobin concentration greater than 50-60% is usually fatal." Handbook of Autopsy Practice. 4th ed. page 425.

How long after death is that? Can you link to page 425?


Turnagain page 19
"Argument from incredulity, again." Your statement is akin to saying that a person in New York who wanted to go to San Francisco traveled East from NY circumnavigating the globe to reach San Francisco. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it likely? Absolutely not but here you are claiming that I am the person arguing from incredulity. Sure, just as I was "arguing from incredulity" when I pointed out that for your claims for the cremations at Treblinka to be factual, it would require a pile of wood 4 feet wide, 4 feet tall and 100 miles long. Let's not forget, either, if we include all the alleged victims of the AR camps that pile of wood grows to over 200 miles long. Like most other propagandists for the holyhoax, you simply didn't consider the practicalities of your claims.

Then we have your claims that the Germans "dug up" the graves to obliterate them. GPR determines underground disturbances amongst other things. If the Germans had dug the mass graves as described by Wiernik, the fact that they now contain backfill or human remains is irrelevant. The GPR would have shown the outlines of the graves by how the ground was disturbed by the initial excavation. Such excavations can't be hidden. It's the geologic version of "you can't un-ring the bell." That much change in the underground structure simply can't be hidden from GPR analysis. Your claim that the Germans could obliterate the graves is...what? "A fallacy of absurdity?" Since it bears no relation to reality it's for damned sure a "fallacy" of some sort.

Turagain, getting frustrated with Nessie continually saying, "I never argued that ante mortem CO poisoning was dependent on livor mortis" and then arguing that red colouring from CO poisoning would take a certain amount of time to appear...the numbers he used were...get ready for it...the minutes and hours for noticeable...livor mortis. Either very stupid, or very cunning Israeli internet agent.
At this point on page 19, it goes off into a different direction and Turnagain failed to keep the pressure on due to being worn out by the continual tricks of Nessie. They begin talking about wood requirement and this allows Nessie to spew more nonsense about an unrelated topic. I applaud Turnagain for trying to logically corner Nessie, but he let Nessie slip away. I guess in that topic, more than one thing was being discussed and it allowed Nessie to try that crap again about wood requirement and the ability to cremate almost one million jews with minimal wood. Then for a few pages it talks about Colls' work and GPR and all of that stuff.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:47 pm)

On page 24 Turnagain brings it back.
That's absolutely amazing, Nessie. Although you have been offered photographs and clinical accounts of non-fatal CO victims displaying the characteristic red/pink discoloration, you continue to claim that it is impossible for that to occur and the red/pink discoloration only presents as livor mortis after death. Then you claim that nobody saw any red/pink discoloration because all of the cadavers were burned/buried in 30 minutes or less after gassing. Talk about a 'fallacy of incredulity.' Have any support for your claim that all the cadavers, all 10,000-12,000 of them, were unloaded from the alleged gas chambers and either buried or burned in 30 minutes or less? Remember, there were 10 gas chambers of 7x7 meters. Each chamber holding up to 1,200 people. Have any proof of how long it took to evacuate the CO from the gas chambers before unloading could commence? Do you have any documentation of how many men were in the work detail unloading the cadavers and transporting them to the grills? So far, Nessie, you have made nothing but an unsupported claim about how long it took to empty the gas chambers and dispose of the bodies. Any question concerning the validity of your assertions is met with your "fallacies" weasel dodge.


Nessie page 25
That is not true. I accept that the ruddy red/pink discolouration can be apparent in non fatal victims. It is the cherry red discolouration (such as presented by Berg) that appears after death.
___________________________________________________________________

Onset of livor mortis starts between 20 minutes and 3 hours after death. Maximum lividity, when the bright red cherry would be plainly obvious is 6 to 12 hours after death. So there is a longer time than you speculate to empty the chambers and toss bodies into pits or onto pyres.


Turnagain page 25
So, if some victims turned red before expiring then it follows that it doesn't take 20-30 minutes before the symptomatic red/pink discoloration to appear in all cadavers. Why, then, did not one single eyewitness comment on the red/pink discoloration of at least some of the cadavers? Gray, blue, green and yellow were all seen and commented upon as the colors of the gassed bodies so it isn't as if the eyewitnesses simply disregarded the colors of the cadavers. Applying Occam's razor to the question, the simplest answer is that the eyewitnesses lied about seeing the bodies of people who died from CO poisoning. However, Occams's razor isn't proof so feel free to advance an alternate explanation, Nessie.
__________________________________________________________________
Again, livor mortis isn't a necessary condition for the bodies of fatal CO poisoning to present the symptomatic red/pink discoloration of carboxyhemogloben concetrations above 30%. Such a discoloration is common enough to be defined by pathologists as symptomatic, not a rare exception nor solely a co-development of livor mortis.



Nessie page 25
People with CO poisoning have been described as ruddy, looking sun burnt or life like. So there are no "victims turned red", as in the cherry red Berg references and you suggest, who would come out of the gas chambers.



Turnagain page 25
People have also been described as displaying the characteristic red/pink discoloration of CO both ante and post mortem. Are you claiming that of the almost 2 million people allegedly killed by CO poisoning in the AR camps, that none displayed such a symptom? Are you saying that nobody would notice such a symptom unless it was the cherry red of Berg's photo? Are you saying that all of the ~ 2 million cadavers were disposed of within 30 minutes of being gassed? Are you claiming that nobody but trained medical professionals are capable of noticing the characteristic symptom of CO poisoning unless it's by the development of livor mortis?


Nessie page 25
I am saying that Berg's cherry red argument can be explained by the time it takes to appear compared to the time it took to bury or cremate the bodies.
I am saying that even trained medics get advice on what to look for to try and diagnose CO poisoning. I am saying that descriptions of symptoms of CO poisoning do not mention skin tone. So from that I am concluding it is not obvious in those who have just died. That is why it is not remarked upon. A minor increase in the skin tone's pinkness is nothing compared to the colours it will go as lividity and decomposition set in.


Turnagain page 25
Berg says that the victims of fatal CO poisoning turn bright red or pink. He shows an example. Are you saying that Berg's thesis that fatal CO poisoning causes a characteristic red/pink discoloration of the corpse is false? Are you claiming that all the cadavers were disposed of either by cremation or burial before any noticeable red/pink discoloration developed? If so, how do you know that?


Nessie page 25
The answers to the questions are in the post you quoted, which I have re quoted above. You have clearly not bothered to read it.


Turnagain page 26
I asked you if the characteristic red/pink discoloration could appear ante mortem. You said "yes." Then, in your following post you claim that no red/pink discoloration appears for at least 20 minutes. Perhaps I'm confused but which is it, Nessie? Can discoloration appear before death or not? Why is asking you a question a "fallacy?" How do you know that all the cadavers were disposed of before the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning appeared? Why would the Germans give a damn if somebody noticed that the dead Jews were turning red? Eyewitnesses claimed that the poison gas caused the victims to turn many different colors. For example, Wiernik said that the cadavers turned yellow. Did they turn yellow before they turned red? Is that question a fallacy of some kind, Nessie.


Nessie page 26
The evidence states that some people can look sun burned or ruddy prior to death. However, none of the sites such as the NHS and CDC I have linked to, nor anywhere else for that matter that I can find, has skin tone being red as a sign of CO poisoning. Here are the links again

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Carbon-mon ... ptoms.aspx (new window)

http://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm (new window)

and another for good measure

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advic ... noxide.htm (new window)

So no mention of skin tone and various references to how difficult it is to diagnose as symptoms mimic others, so I am saying the skin showing sunburn like is rare and hard to spot, beyond being see as someone who had sunburn.

The discolouration that Berg references comes after death, his cherry red. It takes at least 20 minutes and up to three hours to even start to appear and is not at its full extent for 6 to 12 hours after death. That is why I am saying no one noticed cherry red as by then bodies had been buried or burned, as per what eye witnesses state. They were not given much time to do their work as so many were being killed at a time.

As for other colours mentioned, my suggestion would be find a pathologist and as them. Or do some research yourself. I will also look for reasons why myself.


Turnagain page 26
I see that you're back to the usual hoaxer weasel dodge of citing links to non-fatal examples of CO poisoning. Scott has already posted photos of non livor mortis caused red/pink discoloration of cadavers so I won't bother duplicating his efforts.


Nessie page 26
And I have explained that the occasional person who looked like they had sun burn is not going to be so odd as to make it noticeable. Plus non fatal is irrelevant as the people we are discussing were dead.

Strawman that they were cremated or buried in 20 minutes or less. The evidence of cherry red tells us that 20 minutes is the minimum time needed. The proof I have of the process are the eye witnesses to the process.


Turnagain page 26
Again you weasel dodge that the sunburn appearance of CO poisoning is in non-fatal cases. Scott posted a photo of a bright pink non livor mortis involved discoloration of a corpse. Your links to non-fatal examples of CO poisoning is just a typical hoaxer weasel dodge. Aha! The absence of evidence weasel dodge. Since no eyewitnesses reported that they saw any red/pink cadavers, it proves that all the dead bodies were disposed of before the onset of livor mortis, e.g. 20 minutes. There's no evidence as good as no evidence. Uh-huh. Sure, and the Germans disposed of all dead Jews in 20 minutes or less because.....just because.

Turnagain would still win the debate by conceding a number higher than 20 minutes such as 3 hours. Well maybe he doesn't want to because that would help is argument that it was impossible to check all the bodies for gold, drag them and then bury them in a short time. perhaps he feels if he concedes three hours for red to appear the hoaxers will win. But he shouldn't be afraid because the issue is the appearance of redness in cases of ante mortem CO poisoning. Which will occur as soon as the carboxyhemoglobin exceeds 30%. 60% would be fatal. Now please consider that in the same place I quoted Yitzak Arad saying pits in Treblinka were 30 meters deep, he also talks about Jews wandering out of the gas chambers, dazed from the effects of the gas whereupon they stumbled into pre dug pits themselves and then passed out and died and then were buried. So in other words, all their carboxyhemoglobin levels would have been at minimum 30% as they stumbled out of the chambers. Nessie however is unable or unwilling to put two and two together because that would mean he would have to find credible eyewitness testimony about a bunch of red jews stumbling out of the Treblinka gas chambers like a bunch of stoners high on weed.

Nessie page 27
If people who had an excess of CO in their blood commonly turned ruddy or red like sun burn and that was a recognised common symptom and it was never commented on by a witnesses, then you would have a case something is odd. But alive or recently dead, there are only a few who go a ruddy or sun burnt colour or look life like. So we have a medical reason why it was not noticed, except by one chemist who knew what to look for.

That no one we know of refers to cherry red remains and according to witnesses the whole process was done as quickly as possible so as to kill as many as possible gives us evidence the disposal happened before obvious colour changes. So yes, it is evidence of quick body disposal. It corroborates the witnesses.



Turnagain page 27
Only "a few" turned "ruddy" or "red like a sunburn." Uh-huh, so, as a percentage, how many turned red? Give us a link to a site concerned with FATAL cases of CO poisoning only not your hoaxer weasel dodge of citing non fatal cases of CO poisoning. Prove conclusively that ante mortem red/pink discoloration is NOT a perceptible phenomena to laymen. Your claim that the characteristic discoloration was noticed only by a chemist proves only that he could lie more accurately than other hoaxers.


Nessie page 27
I have not seen a percentage as to how many people turn ruddy. I am saying it is a few because I have not found any reference to such in numerous descriptives of the symptoms of CO poisoning. If it was common, or even occasional, I would suggest it would be referenced for people to assist in recognising people with CO poisoning. That reasoning is further evidenced by the chemist recognising the signs, but in people who had just died. No other witness references it so it stands to reason it is not noticeable.

I have already said do some research or ask a pathologist as to why witnesses mention other colours of lividity. It may be that those who die from CO poisoning do not just eventually go cherry red. Other colours of lividity may appear. I do not know the answer.

Busted. Admitted he has nothing. "Don't ask me. Ask someone else."

Nessie page 27
Why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?


Turnagain page 27
So, Nessie, you're back to denying that cadavers that died from CO poisoning display any red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis. I'm sure that you have an appropriate weasel dodge for that statement.


Scott page 27
The blood has already turned red once the patient has absorbed dangerous amounts of CO. Presumably the emergency responders have already removed the patient from the source of the CO poisoning before they are even examined--if they are still living, that is. The blood is not going to get any redder.

It may be that the CO poisoning case is mild, and with or without other symptoms the patient might still need some medical treatment beyond removal from the source of the CO.

This treatment usually consists of "carb-oxygen," or "carbogen," which is bottled oxygen with a higher percentage of carbon dioxide (CO2) added. The carbon dioxide (CO2) stimulates respiratory rate above normal to force more otherwise pure oxygen from the bottle into the blood as the patient's hemoglobin begins to trade oxygen for the carbon monoxide (CO) that it would prefer.

The literature clearly mentions the cherry-pink coloring of CO cases. What it doesn't do is encourage emergency responders to exclude possible partial CO-poisonings just because nobody has noticed the cherry-red coloring of the contaminated blood.

But when you are dealing with deaths from CO or even near-deaths, the subjects will present that cherry-red carboxylhemoglobin blood because that is what killed them (or may still do so). Nearly every corpse so killed is going to present in this way, assuming they have fair complexions at least. This should not be confused with a ruddy "healthy" complexion, even if the patient has not yet died.

With corpses that are less fresh they will present with the signs of livor mortis from the pooling of the blood. And what that means is that where the cherry-pink blood settles out there will be blanched (whitened) areas of the body, and the color contrast will be even more striking--but not any redder. The blood will then thicken like glue but it will remain abnormally red until substantial decomposition occurs.

I have perused all of the forensic medical literature on this for at least ten years now and it is pretty much the same. Find me a doctor that disagrees with what I just said.


Nessie page 27
Again, why is the skin tuning red not mentioned in any list of symptoms to look for? Can you link to any source that backs up your claims?

You have yet to establish that there is a clearly noticeable, out of the ordinary red/pink/ruddy colouration of the dead from gassing by CO. You suggest it, but you do not actually evidence it. In effect you are doing the same as Berg, you both suggest the colour change is obvious and since no one noticed it it did not happen. But there is another possibility which is that the colour change is barely noticeable and unremarkable.


Nessie page 27
Turnagain
So, Nessie, you're back to denying that cadavers that died from CO poisoning display any red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis. I'm sure that you have an appropriate weasel dodge for that statement.

You are yet again showing you are not actually reading what I have said. I accept there is discolouration. I want evidence to know how often it happens and how obvious it is. All I have is Scott making assertions without corroboration.


Turnagain page 28
Uh-huh, you "accept that there is discoloration" but it's essentially invisible.


been-there page 28
Image
Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning.
A faulty natural gas room heater caused this fatal poisoning. The characteristic cherry-red colouration of skin persists in death.
CO binds irreversibly with haemoglobin to produce bright red haemoglobin‚ which retains its colour even though no oxygen is present.
Credit: Thomas H. McConnell, The Nature Of Disease Pathology for the Health Professions, Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2007

A "curious" and peculiar case of carbon monoxide poisoning without cherry-red livor. (new window)

Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning typically causes so-called cherry-red livor of the skin and viscera. The authors report a case of CO poisoning in which cherry-red livor did not develop. The decedent was a 75-year-old white man who was found dead in his car during a cold winter. Blood CO saturation was 86%. The death was attributed to CO poisoning, and the manner of death was designated suicide. The curious absence of cherry-red livor was studied. The decedent's tissue and blood specimens were tested at different temperatures. There was no tendency for either type of specimen to develop cherry-red color at cold or warm temperatures. The antemortem response of the skin to cold possibly sequestered CO-saturated blood in the cadaver. As regards the viscera, there are other proteins to which CO can bond, and possibly these proteins contribute to the development of visceral cherry-red livor.




Nessie page 29
No one is denying that cherry red lividity appears in all but the rarest of cases of CO poisoning. That is not the issue. The issue is how long does it take to appear and how that affects the lack of reporting of such by witnesses to homicidal gassings.

Berg claims "That intense red coloring would have appeared within minutes of death...."

http://nazigassings.com/ (new window)

....but he provides no evidence to back that claim up. I have linked to numerous sites that do not mention turning any shade of red or pink as a symptom to look for in the still living suffering from CO poisoning. If it so obvious, why not mention it? I have linked to numerous sites which state that lividity takes at 20 minutes to 3 hours to start to appear and then 6 to 12 hours to become clear.

So he asks how long it takes for red to appear in non fatal cases of CO Poisoning? Then he uses the numbers it takes for livor mortis to appear in a corpses. Apples with oranges again for the millionth time in a row.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:49 pm)

been-there page 29
I think this is nonsense and further evidence of your cognitive dissonance.
Mr. Fritz Berg has produced evidence: photographic evidence of cherry red colouring occurring in still living victims of CO poisoning. So this is proof of when it occurs and also exposes the deceit/self-delusion in your question: "the issue is how long does it take to appear". Answer: it starts immediately upon internal exposure to the gas.



Nessie page 30
Please link to that evidence.



been-there page 30
Haven't you read this?
Blue women on the beach – and the false toxicity of CO2 in diesel exhaust (new window) by Friedrich Paul Berg

If you are really and genuinely interested in understanding this aspect of the revisionist argument, shouldn't you be familiar with this?

Mr Berg has done all the research for you. Yet you keep asking for the evidence which he has already provided and which has previously been referenced for you before here very patiently by others.
Is this some sort of 'disrupt revisionist discussion' exercise?


nessie page 30
Berg is correct about diesel not being the engine type use.


Nessie page 31
I am here to debate with denier/revisionists.
Yes I have read and studied Berg's argument. His case about diesel not being the engine type used is correct, his case about bodies and cherry red lividity is flawed.



turnagain 32
Just for openers, Nessie, the red/pink discoloration of lethal CO discoloration can appear ante mortem as well as post mortem. There's been both photos and links to pathology reports and publications. No, I'm not going to re-post all the photos and links to assist your current weasel dodge. YOU post some links to real pathology, not some lame website offering advice on how to keep your gas burning water heater from poisoning you or how to properly vent indoor heaters.


Nessie page 32
I accept there is evidence that someone still alive may appear sunburned, but there is still nothing from anyone as to how obvious and common that is. Scott posted a couple of photos, but he ignored a request from me to see where the photos came from so I can read up more.

The supposed lame websites are from the NHS, CDC and UK Health & Safety Executive, they are authoritative sources. Why do none mention skin going pink as a symptom to look for in those dying from CO poisoning?


Turnagain page 32
Yes, and what you reference is the NHS, etc. offering advice to the dimwitted on how to safely operate consumer appliances. I'm sure that they offer equally useful advice on how to safely make a ham sammich, too. Explain the relevance of improper venting of a hot water heater to the effects of LC100 CO.


Nessie page 32
Why is it so hard to get you to evidence your claims? Explain the relevance of severe sunburn.

The NHS etc advice is not on how to operate consumer appliances. It is how to recognise the symptoms of CO poisoning. And none suggest looking for the skin tone changing.


Turnagain page 32
Uh-huh, and you have evidence that in no cases did CO poisoning at or above 30% carboxyhemoglobin cause a red discoloration even as noticeable as a sunburn. Tell us again why so many eyewitnesses claimed to have seen cadavers of non existent colors such as green, blue, yellow or black and blue but none noticed any red cadavers that did exist.


Nessie page 33
Reverse burden of proof fallacy. I am waiting for you, Berg, anyone to show evidence from a non Holocaust related site as to alive people going noticeably pink/red when they have CO poisoning.

And
From what I can make out from the article, it is a study of people who work in places where CO is high and have had a long term exposure without being killed. They then display a pink/red skin tone. So that is nothing like what happened to people who had no exposure, were then exposed suddenly and quickly to a lethal dose and die.


Nessie page 33
I am arguing that Berg, you, Turnagain and indeed any other believer in the cherry red flaw of the narrative of homicidal gassings has made the same mistake. Not all of the evidence has been checked. You have found evidence that suits your pre-conceived premise and stopped further investigation. That is why no revisionist/denier noticed the flaw in the claim, the time it takes for cherry red to appear in corpses.

Once again, when shown how people can be poisoned by CO and still live due to only 30% carboxymyoglobin (whereas 60% is fatal), nessie ignores the apples and brings in the oranges to start talking about livor mortis in corpses.

Turnagain page 34
Jeezus, H, what are you on about? A page or two back you were showed a picture of a bright pink young male being resuscitated. Do you think that some denier EMTs took a corpse with livor mortis and phonied up some pictures to show that CO makes people turn red? Have you considered counseling?


Nessie page 34
I asked for a link to where that image came from so I could read what was said about the circumstances. So far, none has been provided. I am not going to accept an image as evidence that the bodies removed from the gas chambers should have showed an obvious sunburn like colour.

If non Holocaust related sites stated turning red/ruddy/pink was a symptom of CO poisoning in people who are still alive and cherry red lividity appeared immediately after death, Berg would have a very strong case. But none do and that is the flaw.


Scott page 34
Nessie
From what I can make out from the article, it is a study of people who work in places where CO is high and have had a long term exposure without being killed. They then display a pink/red skin tone. So that is nothing like what happened to people who had no exposure, were then exposed suddenly and quickly to a lethal dose and die

Some of them may have died, I don't remember, but the scenario is that ordinary truck drivers using CO as fuel from wood or charcoal gas, rapidly imbibe dangerous levels of CO; they present a sequelae of symptoms including bright-red faces. And this is as would be expected.


Nessie page 34
That certainly suggests the study shows that one effect of long term exposure to CO can be for the the skin to go pink/ruddy/sunburned.


Scott page 34
I've already evidenced my claim unless you think that the Swedish truck driver did not imbibe CO in the course of his delivery and his face didn't turn ruddy-red as a result, of great concern to medical personnel.

In addition, I am the one who found most of those medical journal reports that Mr. Berg is citing, and usually reproducing on his website, which show clear color pictures of people with classic CO exposure and needing medical attention. You've already been led to the cool, cool water. So it is time to drink up.



Nessie page 34
How does the effect long term, non fatal doses of CO relate to the effects of short term fatal doses of CO? Unless you can show corroborative, non Holocaust related, neutral medical sources that people who die quickly from a high dose of CO turn pink/ruddy/sunburnt straight away, I no longer believe that anyone killed in a homicidal gas chamber would show any skin tone change.

Here is a description of a death in a US gas chamber during an execution

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descrip ... ethods#gas (new window)

"The warden then gives a signal to the executioner who flicks a lever that releases crystals of sodium cyanide into the pail. This causes a chemical reaction that releases hydrogen cyanide gas. (Weisberg, 1991) The prisoner is instructed to breathe deeply to speed up the process. Most prisoners, however, try to hold their breath, and some struggle. The inmate does not lose consciousness immediately. According to former San Quenton, California, Penitentiary warden, Clifton Duffy, "At first there is evidence of extreme horror, pain, and strangling. The eyes pop. The skin turns purple and the victim begins to drool."

So we now have a reason for people turning purple as they hold their breath. No mention pink or red.



Nessie page 35
What is the minimum time taken for lividity to appear in human remains?
What percentage of people (if any) show signs of a pink/ruddy/sunburned skin tone from CO poisoning before death?



Berg page 36
With her questions to Scott Smith above, Nessie merely shows that she is seriously dumb.

As to Nessie's questions to me about the time it takes "lividity to appear" or the movement of blood after death---look it up yourself, Nessie. You wouldn't take my word for it anyway.


Scott page 36
The cherry-red color of carboxy-hemoglobin (COHb) is so striking that some supermarkets actually expose cuts of meat to carbon monoxide gas to make the meat look redder (and thus to look fresher). This CO pigmenting practice at the butcher shop is safe as long as the meat is still actually fresh, but regardless of whether or not this practice is banned at your butcher shop, the bottom line is to always look at the dates on the packages when buying red meat.

http://rodoh.info/forum/download/file.php?id=365


Berg p36
Here is some evidence of the cherry red coloring in a living person suffering from CO poisoning: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/712251_4 (new window)

Image

The "patient" is still alive, obviously. The red coloring is what can be called ante-mortum coloring. He or she may die shortly thereafter, or long thereafter. We cannot know--but more than likely his or her carboxyhemoglobin level is more than 30% and that is an entirely separate issue from the onset, or presence, or absence of livor mortis after death.

So, try real hard, folks to not be confused by the somewhat varying definitions of livor mortis. Some define livor mortis as the appearance of "hypostasis" whereas others, as I suspect the authors of the Ruisser essay, define it simply as the color of a corpse after death--a-n-y-t-i-m-e after death.


Well folks it appears Nessie has been exposed. The mere fact that people can get CO poisoning and turn red and still be alive should be enough. But no. Nessie's tactic is to label it a ruddy kind of dark red instead of a bright cherry red which only happens with livor mortis and therefore Berg is in error. That is the tactic but it is wrong. We are getting an insight into the demented mind of a die hard true believer who suffers from willful cognitive dissonance.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Thames Darwin » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:01 pm)

This is all getting a bit ridiculous and a testament to why training is necessary for one to be a physician.

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Here is some evidence of the cherry red coloring in a living person suffering from CO poisoning: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/712251_4
Image


That is not what the text says, and I think that's obvious to anyone, even someone without a medical degree. Given the options on the page, I'm more likely to think this is a case of SLE.

The "patient" is still alive, obviously. The red coloring is what can be called ante-mortum coloring. He or she may die shortly thereafter, or long thereafter. We cannot know--but more than likely his or her carboxyhemoglobin level is more than 30% and that is an entirely separate issue from the onset, or presence, or absence of livor mortis after death.


The only thing that is presented is pink fingernails and five choices, only one of which is carbon monoxide poisoning. But carbon monoxide poisoning wouldn't explain the ridges on the fingernails, would it? A peripheral vascular disorder would --- particularly the finger on the right -- or an endocrine disorder, like diabetes. There are no endocrine disorders listed, but SLE is listed, which has vascuitides among its symptoms.

So, try real hard, folks to not be confused by the somewhat varying definitions of livor mortis. Some define livor mortis as the appearance of "hypostasis" whereas others, as I suspect the authors of the Ruisser essay, define it simply as the color of a corpse after death--a-n-y-t-i-m-e after death.


Words have meanings, and livor mortis has a very specific meaning, which any person who's ever attended a single pathology lecture knows: gravity-based pooling of blood after death due to the weight of hemoglobin in serum. Pathologists use it to determine time of death, along with rigor mortis and algor mortis (body temperature).

Contrary to what Hermod suggests above, the bright red discoloration does NOT have to be associated with livor mortis, or hypostasis, or even death. It will appear in light-skinned people when the carboxyhemoglobin is high enough--whenever.


No, it won't -- or at least not always. You're at least as likely to see cyanosis.

That point aside, carboxyhemoglobinemia is almost never diagnosed by skin color. It's diagnosed by other symptoms (headache, nausea, confusion, syncope), with a blood draw being necessary to make a conclusive diagnosis. If I saw a patient with signs of lactic acidosis and fingernails like the ones in that picture, and he or she was unconscious with no family members present, I'd be far more suspicious of diabetic ketoacidosis or a biguanide-associated drug reaction.

Mr. Berg, with all due respect, you are banking far too heavily on this cherry red coloration issue and you lack the expertise necessary to counter an explanation for why it's an inappropriate argument.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:30 am)

From your post I assume that you are a member of the medical profession. Are you a M.D.? You say that carboxyhemoglobinemia doesn't always present as red discoloration. Can you give us an estimate of how often it does present as red discoloration? Please express it as a percentage. Accuracy of +/- 5% is more than an adequate value considering that the population, n= 2,000,000.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby borjastick » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:16 am)

Well this is rather tedious don't you think? A million cut and paste inserts and we still seem to be arguing about something very simple. However there is a different view to take as well.

From what I have read and understood there is little doubt that CO poisoning would produce at the very least a reddish glow which is apparent to the human eye in most of the bodies. By most I would suggest more than 50% as a minimum. This glow would be visible very soon after death, within minutes, and could be present immediately the bodies were seen by the Sonderkommandos as they accessed the gas chamber.

In any case the reddish glow or in fact bright red discolouration would be most apparent by the time the bodies had been removed up to the crematory facilities and of course in the subsequent hours/days as they were waiting for cremation.

However I would suggest that the available light in the gas chamber was low, perhaps not very good at all in those days as I doubt they were lit by arc lights or high wattage lighting systems. Thus the ability to notice the colour -red-normal-yellow-blue- could well have been severely limited.

By the time these 1000-2000 bodies had been removed, which is clear would have taken several hours, the discolouration would have been visible.

The bottom line is not about colour at all. It is about the complete lack of gas chambers to begin with. Then we have the complete lack of human remains, mass graves and fuel to have cremated all these one million plus bodies. And that's if you believe the 1m death claim at Auschwitz which of course was 4m plus depending on which torture induced statement you prefer to accept.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:56 am)

I think that you've found the bottom line, Borjastick. How many corpses have to turn red and how red do they have to be before witnesses begin to notice?


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