The most important Photograph / corpse color

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borjastick
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby borjastick » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:40 pm)

We tend to plough our furrow too deep. In so doing we skip over the obvious while trying to make a finite point in pursuit of deeper understanding.

This thread has been very interesting and of course educational, but we should never get to the point where we cannot see the wood for the trees. By this I mean the bigger and very obvious picture that there is zero evidence of gas chambers let alone any proof of the massive death toll as claimed by the jewish zionists who feel it is ok to embellish beyond belief and then apply their fantasies to the Palestinians who they are killing in huge numbers.

The Palestinians are experiencing a real holocaust whereas the zionists are only too happy to bang on and on and on ad nauseum about an event that simply cannot be proven. The simple fact is the lunatic Zionists cannot stop themselves and will be the authors of their own demise, it won't be too long in my opinion. If they could just behave, be reasonable and treat people as they would wish to be treated they would enjoy a nice life. But that is beyond them, they cannot stop, they cannot contain the inbred urge to destroy what they believe to be their enemies.

By creating the holocaust they engineered a situation to their benefit which they have exploited to the enth degree, but it will be their downfall.

As Hannover would say 'the tide is turning'.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:55 pm)

Mr. Darwin states, "The problem is that it might not have been sufficiently widespread to be noticeable on all the the bodies, so it might not have been identifiable as a trend." Are you saying that the red discoloration has to be visible on ALL the bodies before the "average" person would notice the discoloration? Or, are you saying that so few bodies show noticeable discoloration that nobody would remark upon it? Is that in reference to White people? If so, why are you talking about them when only melanin enhanced, hirsute and feces smeared Jews were (allegedly) being killed with CO?

Gasoline motors don't produce much soot. Diesels can but why would the Germans be piping diesel exhaust into the gas chambers when diesel exhaust has high oxygen content? Why would the Jews be covered with soot and feces? Yes, I'm aware that death relaxes all muscles so both bladder and colon can empty at death but how did the Jews become sufficiently feces smeared to cover up any traces of CO red/pink discoloration?

So, let's try once more, Mr. Darwin. What percentage of melanin enhanced, hirsute and feces smeared Jews would show enough red/pink discoloration at the time of death to be noticeable to the "average" person? Would that be 5%? 25%? Or, would it have to be 100% before anyone noticed the red discoloration before the onset of livor mortis?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:36 pm)

The tactic of choosing the minimum time, 20 minutes, is going to bite revisoinists in the ass so stop choosing it. Don't you all remember what Denierbud taught us with math in his Auschwitz videos? With all the alleged corpses that were gassed and the limited amount of ovens they had, corpses would have been piled up for days and days. In other words, 3 or 6 hours would not have made a difference. If we grant the 3-6 hour timespan, we still win, guys. Chill out. Holding on to 20 minutes is not the only way to defeat Nessie and his ilk.
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:37 pm)

Hi Nessie, I see you too.

Werd just quotes from this thread and adds in his unevidenced opinions. For example "Well folks it appears Nessie has been exposed. The mere fact that people can get CO poisoning and turn red and still be alive should be enough. But no. Nessie's tactic is to label it a ruddy kind of dark red instead of a bright cherry red which only happens with livor mortis and therefore Berg is in error. That is the tactic but it is wrong. We are getting an insight into the demented mind of a die hard true believer who suffers from willful cognitive dissonance."

The mere fact that people can get poisoned and turn red when alive is not enough to evidence Berg's claims.

Yes it is because that is the whole damn issue. Oh wait. You have an amendment. Let's just see.

It does not deal with how many times does that happen in CO poisoning cases. I have shown a medical link which states it is seldom seen.

So it should have still been seen and yet no one testified to it. They did testify to yellow corpses, which as you will see below, is complete nonsense. But you can't admit that can you. When pressed, you concede and demand we do your research to find CO poisoning leading to yellow cases for you instead of you fulfilling your own burden of proof. And you have the nerve to accuse us of engaging in logical fallacies.

I have shown repeatedly how colour change is not referred to as a way of diagnosing CO poisoning. That shows it is rare. Then there is the evidence that the colour change ante mortem is ruddy or sunburned and not cherry red. Someone looking ruddy or sun burned is not odd. Someone looking cherry red would be distinctive. Then there is all of the medical evidence of cherry red appearing with lividity which takes 20 minutes to 3 hours to appear.

You say it does not happen often. You continue to ignore the fundamental issue again. Ante mortem CO poisoning will lead to red skin if the living person suffers from 30% or higher carboxyhemoglobin as a result from said CO poisoning. If you want to argue this takes a long time Nessie, then go ahead, but I don't think you will find any proof of that. Remember, this percentage occurs when the victim is still alive. 60% is fatal, meaning people can still be alive at even 40% carboxyhemoglobin. And if this leads to red skin all before the person dies, I don't think it will take three f___ing hours. Remember what many have testified to, that gassing hundreds of people crammed into small chambers only took 15-20 minutes at most. Please recall also that in Arad's section on Treblinka, he claimed Jews stumbled out of the chambers still alive, but dazed from the gas, stumbled to the pre dug pits, passed out, died and were then covered with dirt. To argue these people still alive did not suffer from 30-40% carboxyhemoglobin, and thus have red skin, is stupid in my opinion.

Think really hard about it. Many have claimed that the corpses were blue when pulled from the chambers. Many retort, "they suffocated to death and turned blue before they could die and turn red from the CO." Okay, then if they died and turned blue, then why is it in Arad's book that Jews stumbled out of the chambers, dazed and near death from the gas, only to stumble into the pits whereupon they likely finished dying and were then covered with dirt? Which absurd propaganda story is it? You guys can't have it both ways.

I notice also you had the nerve to skip over this post of mine Nessie about corpses piling up in Treblinka and being left in the open for many days, thus allowing plenty opportunity for redness to appear. You also had the nerve to skip over this one as well.

I hope people noticed another tactic Nessie took. First it was to say nobody noticed the red because they were hussled out of the gas chambers right away. Then, upon being given a quote from Yitzak Arad about bodies being out in the open for at least a day or two, he says they were stacked and the pressure of from other bodies being on top prevented the red colouring of livor mortis appearing in the corpses. Okay, what about the top layer?

Do you really expect us to believe that corpses piled up for days, the top layers being exposed to the air and thus not suffering any gravity or pressure that would prevent the spread of red so to speak, would not in fact have the spread of red? Or that they would all be taken off the tops of the piles, examined for gold and then moved into the pits again all before the red could spread or even be seen? Oh wait maybe they all turned yellow. :lol:

You also don't have the gonads to tackle the problem of the claim of yellow corpses as stated by Wiernik. Well you claimed you solved it in the early pages of the topic, but ultimately you admitted you had no explanation. In other words, you conceded. If there are cases of yellow corpses from CO poisoning, you better damn well prove it. Because so far, all we see is red. Otherwise, don't go clucking around like a hen claming victory on the yellow issue when you clearly backed off on it.

From myself earlier in this topic.
I still have yet to see an explanation as to why Wiernik claimed yellow corpses. Nessie says he answered Turnagain's inquiries into why people said yellow black and blue for corpses colours. But I haven't found it in that massive thread yet. It was put to him on page 29 by been-there he quoted it in his response on page 30 and for the next five pages (the topic is at 35 pages now), he avoided answering it, claiming he already had.


And I also have you on page 26 as saying
As for other colours mentioned, my suggestion would be find a pathologist and as them. Or do some research yourself. I will also look for reasons why myself.


In that same post of mine, I also have you on page 27 as saying
I have already said do some research or ask a pathologist as to why witnesses mention other colours of lividity. It may be that those who die from CO poisoning do not just eventually go cherry red. Other colours of lividity may appear. I do not know the answer.


There you go. Demanding we do your research job for you. Classic. :D

Start looking for historical evidence that people have or can turn yellow from CO poisoning. Otherwise you will have to admit Wiernik simply lied. Just like the oh so trustworthy report Yitzak Arad quoted about pits being thirty meters deep in Treblinka. Care to tell us how that was done, Nessie? Oh, but you can't do that can you. It must suck to know that Mattogno was originally right about the polish translation years ago and that Thomas Kues was suckered.
Weirnick said yellow corpses? Correct Polish translations...

Werd goes on about my tactics, it would be better to counter me with evidence. Instead he is like Turnagain and uses the fallacies of incredulity and ignorance.

Demanding you get a set of gonads and find evidence for Wiernik's claim that CO poisoned corpses turned yellow is not a fallacy of incredulity or ignorance. It's a rule of philosophy. You can't demand we fulfill burdens of proof you put on us, but then engage in special pleading when it comes to the absurd claim that CO poisoning turns people yellow and say, "You guys do more research or ask some other medical professional. I'm not going to." - Not direct quotation obviously, but painfully accurate summary.

Check this topic out from hannover.
"eyewitness" Yankel Wiernik at Treblinka
I saw this referenced as evidence about Treblinka. http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm
==============================================
A YEAR IN TREBLINKA
By Yankel Wiernik
An Inmate Who Escaped Tells the Day-To-Day Facts of One Year of His Torturous Experiences
Published by
AMERICAN REPRESENTATION of the General Jewish Workers' Union of Poland 175 East Broadway New York 2, N.Y. 1945
===============================================

"All looked yellow from the gas..."


And here is the website's main page.


WE REMEMBER! SHALOM!
Ada Holtzman Home Page
http://www.zchor.org
In memory of my beloved mother Rywcia (Rivka) HOLTZMAN née GOSTYNSKI, born in Gombin (Gąbin), Poland 1915, died in Kibbutz Evron, Israel, 1969

And let's look at which version of Yiernik's book they put online.

http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm
A YEAR IN TREBLINKA

By Yankel Wiernik


An Inmate Who Escaped Tells the

Day-To-Day Facts of One Year of His

Torturous Experiences

Published by

AMERICAN REPRESENTATION

of the

General Jewish Workers' Union of Poland

175 East Broadway

New York 2, N.Y.

1945

Wow. So in 1945 even the Jews and the Poles were okay with this translation being given to the English world. In other words, Mattogno was right. The fact that he broke down the grammar rules of Polish and came to the conclusion that Wiernik said yellow proves that Mattogno's translation of the Polish is in fact correct. His views on Wiernik's statement of the corpse colour was confirmed by Jews and Poles in 1945 who supervised the English translation. In other words, the holocaust controversies team were just making shit up and one of their sock puppets took Thomas Kues for a ride in 2011. Thank goodness the ever unmatched Carlo Mattogno was there to check his work (no disrespect to Kues intended).

So I guess even they know full well what colour Wiernik claimed the corpses looked like. The author of the report Arad quoted about pits being thirty meters deep lied and Wiernik also lied. Get used to it.
Last edited by Werd on Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:43 pm)

wanted: testimonies on corpse color

After reading this old thread, as well as this current one, count the number of different colours claimed. Black. Blue. Yellow. Red. No colour even. :lol: I guess if we ask for scientific evidence of these other colours such as yellow resulting from CO poisoning, will it be a fallacy of incredulity? Or will it simply be us asking for proof like any good scientist?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:41 pm)

Well, I would bet on either a fallacy of incredulity or of ignorance, Werd. The one thing that is guaranteed that you will NOT get is a straight answer. I think that the bottom line with Nessie is his complete indifference to the actual discoloration of cadavers who were allegedly killed by CO poisoning. His only purpose is to defend the claims of the holyhoax no matter how physically impossible those claims may be. Thus, we get the "I drove my Cadillac Coupe de Ville to the moon" type assertions. Facts, reality, impossibilities are irrelevant to the defend the holyhoax at all costs mentality. Nessie argues from dogma. "The holocaust was the attempted genocide of the Jews by the Germans during which time the Germans murdered six million Jews." Anything that doesn't conform to that dogma is either heresy (fallacy of incredulity) or blasphemy (fallacy of ignorance) and so on. His other response parallels the answer given by the geocentric priests of the renaissance, "No, signore Galileo, we don't want to look through your damned telescope."

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:38 pm)

Up to page 41 now and Nessie, who has read this topic and has seen my posts keeps igorning my point about pits thirty meters deep and how a Jewish-Polish translation of Wiernik's book into Enligh in the mid to late forties wherein he claimed yellow bodies and not ugly or dead as a doornail looking ones. Henry has to remind Nessie to stop being so obtuse and realize that it matters not how many cases we find of corpses or live people with CO poisoning. Rather, it's that 30% or higher level Nessie keeps ignoring by saying, "Well CDC and NIH don't mention red colouring," over and over again. Now Duke is saying these people are blue because they asphyxiated instead of being poisoned. And therefore Berg is wrong. So how do we explain the testimony of black corpses? How do we explain the testimony of yellow corpses? And the thirty meter deep pits that the Polish government in exhile in London claimed they we told about through a reliable channel of hearsay that allegedly begun with a German at Belzec that wanted the world to know. And how do we explain the Germans needing to use gasoline or petrol engines, if they could just cause mass suffocation by shutting the doors tightly? Berg's point is that based on the history of technology and science in Germany, the Germans knew better than to use diesel gas to kill people. So that is why the gas chamber mongers were forced to go back and check their homework and they found that no one in a position to have seen or heard the engine said diesel. They claimed gas or petrol. But that DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM of low CO levels as already seen here.

Poison Gas: Another Fuel for Motor Transport

This is also how the holocaust controversies team operates. They deny the absurdities like the ones above and claim they were mere accidents or hyperbole. Or, to save face in regards to Wiernik's testimony about corpses colour, they deny he mentioned a yellow corpse colour at all claimed Mattogno and Graf got the Polish wrong. Yet the Poles and the Jews were clearly fine with that translation into English having Wiernik saying yellow. Holocaust controversies apparently now are better experts at Polish, Yiddish and Hebrew than those Jews and Poles who translated Wiernik's book into English in the forties. No wonder that source who in 2011 tricked Kues over that sentence from Wiernik wanted to remain anonymous. maybe the Holocaust controversies used a sock puppet. Wouldn't want to answer for their lies now would they?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:06 pm)

Kudos to you for being willing to visit the RODOH site, Werd. The current RODOH is apparently a resurrection of the previous RODOH. Both are/were owned by Scott Smith (?) so he gets to do as he wishes with the site. He essentially turned the first RODOH over to Roberto, et al. who promptly turned it into an obscenity and physical threats laden toilet. He has now turned the "new" RODOH over to a pair of slimy little analogs of Roberto and Handy Andy who go by the screen names of "Das Prussian" and "Duke Umeroffen." The "Duke" is also the moderator known as "Joe Future" who allows "Das Prussian" to carry on with the obscene insults with an occasional avuncular reprimand or a "time out" from the main forums for a few hours. As stated, though, it's Scott's site, he pays the bills so he gets to do as he wishes. If he doesn't care if "Duke and Das" turn it into another toilet it is surely none of my business.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:25 pm)

Hi Nessie, I see you too on page 43.

Note to Werd on CODOH. How about dealing with the issue of Berg's claims about there being lots of cherry red bodies for witnesses to see, they did not say there were any, therefore there were no people gassed at TII (and elsewhere) with CO?

That's what the whole thread on rodoh and the one on here was all about, jackass. CO poisoning will usually cause red skin when caboxyhemoglobin levels reach 30% or more. So when it hits 40% you will surely see it and still be alive. Yitzak Arad claimed Jews stumbled out of the gas chambers all on two feet, and stumbled toward the pits, fell in, died and were then covered up. So that means they could still walk but were still close to death. At that point of CO poisoning, the bodies should have been red. He mentions no red Jews walking out. Hence, it violates science, and anything that violates proven science, is not scientific. Game over.

Oh wait I forgot. Duke has a safety net for you. The Jews who stumbled out should have been blue from lack of oxygen. They weren't being poisoned, they were suffocating (which would make the engines superfluous, you moron). In other words, the nazis stopped the Jews from suffocating just at the right time to let them out, blue from lack of oxygen and stumble to the thirty meter deep pits to pass out and then finally die. But then that would make no sense either because if they stumbled outside where oxygen is plentiful, they would not have died on their walk to the empty pits. Their lungs would have filled up and they would have moved further away from unconsciousness. Do you understand how f___ing stupid this story is no matter which way you turn? :lol:

Arad also quoted a report saying pits in Treblinka were 30 feet deep and Yankel Wiernik claimed the bodies were yellow...according to a translation into English from the Polish in the mid forties by a committee of Poles and Jews. Polish and Jewish. Wiernik was both. So he must have spoken Polish and Yiddish for sure. Maybe even Hebrew. In other words, Romanov's pathetic explanation of how Wiernik allegedly didn't say the corpses were yellow falls flat.

In other words, you have more on your plate Nessie and by continuing to hope we forget your claim that other colours could appear from CO poisoning but you weren't sure and that you AND US needed to do homework for you to check it out, you make yourself look even more dishonest.


The other issues have threads and have been discussed at length. This thread is about how medical science explains why there were not lots of cherry red bodies to be seen.

The cut and paste jobs I have done here on codoh prove that you have lied about having proof that other colours can appear from CO poisoning. You need to do your homework and find proof of blue, black and yellow colours on corpses from CO poisoning. Otherwise, you can admit that Wiernik was full of shit. There is no inbetween. That he was just as dishonest as the polish government in exhile in London who issued a report claiming an anonymous German passed on verbally what was going on in Belzec which also had pits thirty meters deeps.

If you can show me where you solved the problem of lack of proof of bodies turning yellow from CO poisoning, be my guest Nessie. Until then, I have every reason to believe that when I read that rodoh thread twice and found that hey, you forgot to address the yellow issue, I missed nothing! Put up or shut up on the yellow issue!

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:21 pm)

Earlier I said this.
Ante mortem CO poisoning will lead to red skin if the living person suffers from 30% or higher carboxyhemoglobin as a result from said CO poisoning. If you want to argue this takes a long time Nessie, then go ahead, but I don't think you will find any proof of that. Remember, this percentage occurs when the victim is still alive. 60% is fatal, meaning people can still be alive at even 40% carboxyhemoglobin. And if this leads to red skin all before the person dies, I don't think it will take three f___ing hours. Remember what many have testified to, that gassing hundreds of people crammed into small chambers only took 15-20 minutes at most. Please recall also that in Arad's section on Treblinka, he claimed Jews stumbled out of the chambers still alive, but dazed from the gas, stumbled to the pre dug pits, passed out, died and were then covered with dirt. To argue these people still alive did not suffer from 30-40% carboxyhemoglobin, and thus have red skin, is stupid in my opinion.

If we go with suffocation, they are blue. If we go with CO poisoning, they should be red. However, Henry posted this on rodoh just a little while ago.

CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING

A guide for GPs and other medical professionals

Clinical Signs

The cherry red skin colour produced wheN carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) concentrations exceed about 20% is rarely seen in life.
Neurological signs must be looked for: A neurological examination, including tests of fine movement and balance (finger-nose movement, Rhomberg’s test, normal gait and heel-toe walking), a mini-mental state examination and testing of short term memory and the ability to subtract 7, serially, from 100, are useful.

http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/htm/gpfact ... soning.pdf


And I found this.

/SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS/ Bullae occur, especially over pressure areas, and alopecia and sweat gland necrosis are reported rarely. The appearance of bullae appears to be related to the severity of toxicity. Cherry red skin (lips, mucous membranes) is characteristic of nonsurvivors, because the high carboxyhemoglobin levels required to produce this appearance usually are not compatible with life. Carboxyhemoglobin levels can rise after death because of the continuing extraction of oxyhemoglobin. Hence, cherry red skin is an autopsy finding and uncommon in live patients.
[Ellenhorn, M.J. and D.G. Barceloux. Medical Toxicology - Diagnosis and Treatment of Human Poisoning. New York, NY: Elsevier Science Publishing Co., Inc. 1988., p. 825] **PEER REVIEWED**

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/s ... @DOCNO+903

High levels required to produce red skin in live people are not often compatible with life? Really? Many medical sites state that 60% carboxyhemoglobin, results in death. Upwards of 50% results in incapacitation or unconsciousness. As I stated before you could have 40-45% and still be alive and able to get around on two feet basically.


Carboxyhemoglobin: 10%
Frontal Headache
Carboxyhemoglobin: 20%
Throbbing Headache
Dyspnea on exertion
Carboxyhemoglobin: 30%
Impaired judgment
Nausea or Vomiting
Dizziness
Visual disturbance
Fatigue
Carboxyhemoglobin: 40%
Confusion
Syncope
Carboxyhemoglobin: 50%
Coma
Seizures
Carboxyhemoglobin: 60%
Hypotension
Respiratory failure
Carboxyhemoglobin: 70%
Death

http://www.fpnotebook.com/mobile/ER/Tox ... xdPsng.htm


So again, why no red skin if these medical sources are right? Man, is Nessie correct on this one issue? Am I missing something? :shock: Does that mean that in this Kues article, Berg is incorrect?

http://revblog.codoh.com/2011/06/skin-discoloration/
Skin discoloration caused by carbon monoxide poisoning – Reality vs. Holocaust eye-witness testimony
_____________________________________________________________

Below a carboxyhemoglobin level of 30% a living body or corpse may indeed display cyanosis without accompanying bright red discoloration, but as the lethal level for most individuals lies around 60%, an overwhelming majority of corpses would definitely show some nuance of red. Variations and exceptions to this occur in only around 6% of all cases. Also, the reddish color when occurring “tends to be extremely intense and dramatic whereas cyanosis is an extremely subtle coloring in which most of the skin is merely pale” (Berg). A lay observer would thus have a hard time noticing any cyanotic cases, whereas the red discolored corpses would be immediately noticeable.


Have Henry on rodoh and Hermod in this post on codoh, proven that ante mortem CO poisoning accompanied by red skin even in people with levels of 30-45% caboxyhemoglobin is rare?

Or does one have to read a little further to see what the game of the hoaxers is?

3. The difference between fatal and non-fatal cases of CO poisoning

In discussing the issue of discolorations in the skin of CO gassing victims, it is important to note the difference between fatal and non-fatal (i.e. clinical) cases of CO poisoning. In the writings of anti-revisionists, we often find quotes from medical literature such as:

“The classic findings of cherry-red lips, cyanosis, and retinal hemorrhages occur rarely.”[12]

Or:

“The classic ‘cherry-red’ skin coloration is actually rare, and patients are more likely to appear pale or cyanotic.”[13]

As F.P. Berg points out, statements such those above appears to refer mainly to clinical cases of carbon monoxide poisoning, i.e. cases where the poisoned person was found alive and received treatment before he or she either survived, or died (therefore the word “patients” in the second quote). A statement similar to the ones quoted above can be found in the standard work A guide to general toxicology (1983):

“Carbon monoxide poisoning may result in blisters or bullae over pressure areas but the classic cherry red color of the skin is rare.”[14]

When, however, the text within which this quote appears is read more closely, it becomes evident that the author(s), without stating this explicitly, is referring mainly or even exclusively to clinical cases.[15] In fact, specialist literature on toxicology and emergency medicine by its very nature normally focus on clinical cases, while cases involving untreated fatal cases are normally treated in writings related to forensic medicine.[16] An article from 2007 authored by Nicholas Bateman, a professor in clinical toxicology, indirectly confirms that deep red or “cherry pink” discoloration is rare among surviving victims, but more common in fatal cases (emphasis added):

“Skin blistering may occur if the patient lies unconscious for some hours before being discovered, and the skin is more likely to be cyanosed than to have the cherry-pink colour that is described to be a classical feature of CO poisoning, but rarely seen in living patients.”[17]


The letter by Bruno Simini to The Lancet, often cited by anti-revisionists, in which it is stated that “cherry-red discoloration in CO poisoning is quite rare” and that “most doctors overestimate the frequency of cherry-red discoloration in CO poisoning” is also clearly referring to clinical cases of poisoning, since it only refers to “surveys of patients” i.e. treated victims of CO poisoning.[18]

The case reports and medical papers which I quote and refer to in the next section clearly proves that deep red or cherry red discoloration of the skin is virtually always present among fatal cases of CO poisoning. In the section after that I will contrast the contents of the medical case reports and findings with statements made by professed eyewitnesses to the alleged homicidal gas chambers and “gas vans”.

Okay, so if we disregard the hoaxer claim that people were blue from suffocation before they could turn red from CO, then yes, the corpses should have been red if they were in fact poisoned instead of suffocated. I don't think anyone is arguing that. let's read on from Kues.

4. Verified cases of discoloration resulting from carbon monoxide poisoning

Below I will provide brief summaries of a number of case reports and medical papers concerned with skin discoloration as an effect of CO poisoning.

Item 1: The man with the red face

The following case from mid-60’s America involved the suicide attempt of a 21-year old white male of Italian descent:[23]

“When seen on the morning following his admission the author was struck by the appearance of the patient’s cherry-red face. Additionally, he was thick-tongued in speech, lethargic and showed impairment of orientation as regards time and place. Confusion as to what had brought about his admission was noted.

The writer’s initial impression was acute brain syndrome but one whose etiology might involve carbon monoxide poisoning. Thus, the patient was questioned closely as regards the circumstances and details of his suicide attempt. Elicited from the patient were additional facts that he had fallen asleep in his car with the engine running and the windows closed. Twelve hours later, he awoke and returned home to tell his parents what he had done. At that time his clothes were covered by vomitus. It became apparent that a most important clinical sign and area of history had been over-looked previously.”

Thus it is apparent that cherry-red skin discoloration can be highly visible even among survivors of carbon monoxide poisoning. Red discoloration of the skin is thus not limited to the lividity of fresh corpses, but appears in the still living victim’s body as the mechanical result of carbon monoxide being absorbed by the bloodstream. This is because, as F.P. Berg writes in his rebuttal to Provan, “when carbon monoxide reacts with human blood, it forms carboxyhemoglobin which above concentrations of 30% is a bright red, becoming brighter and more intense as the concentration increases”, that is, the discoloration begins immediately with the reaction of the blood with the CO, and is then increased by the inflow of CO. Following death the discoloration is then concentrated by the pooling of blood that is livor mortis (post-mortem lividity).

Item 2: A dead girl in Italy

This case involved a 21 year old white female found dead in a country house owned by her family. It was later determined that her death had been unintentionally caused by a gas water heater. We are told by the authors of the case report that “[t]he pale cherry pink colour of the victim immediately suggested a carbon monoxide poisoning.” A spectrophotometric measurement of the blood showed a carboxyhemoglobin level of 60%. The report also mentions that among survivors of CO poisoning, the mean carboxyhemoglobin level is 28.1%, while among fatalities the mean level is 62.3%. At a level of 50%, the probability of survival is more or less 50%.[24]

But the issue here is ante mortem red colour appearing in live people. There are medical reports saying that this is rare. Not only is that what the enlarged text above seems to point to, but that is what Kues seems to argue himself a bit further below.

Cherry-red discoloration sometimes appears in non-fatal cases of CO poisoning, i.e. it is visible also in ante-mortem states (Item 1). According to available medical literature, such cases are not the rule, but on the other hand not highly exceptional. Such discoloration would appear more or less directly after the blood cells had started absorbed the carbon monoxide. The visibility of the deep red discoloration is related to the concentrations of CO in the blood (i.e. the carboxyhemoglobin level), as well as other factors such as pigmentation (Item 5). In the case of the alleged gas chamber victims it is reasonable to assume that their carboxyhemoglobin level would be much higher than that of the average CO poisoning survivor (that is 28.1%, whereas in fatal cases the concentration averages 62.3%; cf. Item 2), thus greatly increasing the number of individual cases with cherry-red discoloration appearing already ante-mortem or prior to the onset of livor mortis.

If they were poisoned before they suffocated and turned blue, yes the corpses should be red. But live people turning red, that seems to be an exception to the APPARENT rule that even if you have 30-40% caboxyhemoglobin, you still will not turn red.

I'm feeling like I may have to do an about face on this one. Maybe there weren't a bunch of red Jews stumbling out of the chamber into the pits thirty meters deep. Maybe it's because thirty meter deep pits were impossible, and because the story of stumbling out alive is silly; not because they should have been red, because it seems like red ante mortem colouring is in fact rare. So Shall we see that scoreboard for revisionists versus exterminationists is not 5-0 but maybe 4-1?

1. Impossible yellow colour as described by Wiernik
2. Impossible thirty meter deep pits
3. Impossible people per square inch in Treblinka chambers
4. Impossible Jews stumbling out of the chambers to walk to the pits to die.

versus

1. Impossible high frequency of red skin in ante mortem CO poisoning victims

We are still winning here.
Last edited by Werd on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:52 pm)

Werd wrote:
Have Henry on rodoh and Hermod in this post on codoh, proven that ante mortem CO poisoning accompanied by red skin even in people with levels of 30-45% caboxyhemoglobin is rare?


In the post you've linked, the spokesman of the Milford Fire Department described "a bright red face" as one of the "classic symptoms of CO poisoning". So it seems that it's the absence of any ante-mortem red discoloration that is rare (at least for people not treated (reoxygenated in a hyperbaric chamber) by doctors, what was obviously the case in a gas chamber).
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:13 pm)

There was a CO detector in the home, but the alarm was not sounding when firefighters arrived, Carman said.

Part of the delay in diagnosing the man's health problem was that he didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face, Carman said.

"That is a relatively late symptom,'' Carman said. "By the time that you see that, it is often too late. The early symptoms could be almost anything: nausea, headache and listlessness.''

I'm guessing the firefigher was talking about classic FATAL symptoms of CO poisoning. This man who lived, "didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face." In other words, this is just one more case of someone suffering from CO poisoning, yet remaining alive and not having a noticeable red tint to his skin. As I said, I myself may have to do an about face with the claim that even most live people who are poisoned with CO and have even 30-40% carboxyhemoglobin may not actually typically sport any noticeable red skin. The quotes Henry and I found about it being rare are what is motivating me to do an about face on this issue. Not to mention your apparent ripping of quotes from context. And what of the enlarged text in that Kues article above?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:31 pm)

from RODOH today: Image
http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/education/Curriculum/VM8304/vet%20pathology/CASES/CELLINJURY2/PAGE1-8.htm

The image above shows what can be described as "ante-mortum" coloring. The patient is still alive and seems to be receiving "clinical" care but may die nonetheless.

Image
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:38 pm)

I'm a little confused as to why you are reversing your position, Werd. It seems that red discoloration doesn't always occur in non fatal cases of CO or may even be rare. However, in fatal cases of CO poisoning, most cadavers will exhibit the red discoloration. Have I missed something?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 3 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:29 pm)

Atigun, I was always under the impression that one the carboxohemoglobin levels reached 30% minimum ( or up to 45% without passing out and thus being able to walk at least) in people who are suffering from CO poisoning, their skin will always turn red. Now it appears that according to Kues' article that is NOT the case. However red will almost always appear in corpses of CO deaths. My issue was how often does red colouring show up in live people suffering anywhere from 30-45% carboxyhemoglobin? Apparently not much if Kues' article is correct - assuming my interpretation of said enlarged quotes above is correct. However, on rodoh recently, Henry posted the picture that Friedrich Paul Berg just posted. But here is Henry's entire post.

Henry
Post subject: Re: Bergs bogus challenges? PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:08 am

Nessie wrote:

This source "Detecting CO poisoning in the Emergency Room" states

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 8758,d.ZGU (new window)

"Patients with acute CO poisoning are more likely to present with more serious symptoms, such as cardiopulmonary problems, confusion, syncope, coma, and seizure." - there is no mention in the whole study about skin tone change, cherry red or pink......


Do you even know what you are reading?

Your own source says this on p.10...

Pathophysiology

Once in the bloodstream, CO has a multi-prong deleterious effect on the body. But despite the many adverse mechanisms outlined in Table 6 8-11 each produces the same result: preventing oxygen from reaching tissues thus causing tissue hypoxia


Don't you know what "hypoxia" is?

Symptoms of Hypoxia

.....Severe hypoxia induces a blue discolouration of the skin, called cyanosis. Because hemoglobin is a darker red when it is not bound to oxygen (deoxyhemoglobin), as opposed to the rich red colour that it has when bound to oxygen (oxyhemoglobin), when seen through the skin it has an increased tendency to reflect blue light back to the eye. In cases where the oxygen is displaced by another molecule, such as carbon monoxide, the skin may appear 'cherry red' instead of cyanotic.

http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/r-he ... ptoms.html



Again:

Causes of Hypoxia: Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning is somewhat similar to methemoglobinemia in that the hemoglobin's ability carry oxygen is reduced, but it differs in that CO competes with O2 for binding sites on heme iron. The heme iron is in the ferrous state and can bind oxygen, but CO has a much greater affinity for Hb than does O2 (about 240 times). Once bound to the Hb molecule, CO isn't released readily, and oxygen can't bind to the site Hence oxygen carrying capability is greatly reduced: just as in methemoglobinemia, CO reduces the O2 content of the blood.

Unlike methemoglobinemia, which produces cyanosis, CO poisoning results in a cherry-red color to the skin, the result of the binding of CO to the hemoglobin. Patients with CO poisoning can be treated with oxygen to displace some of the bound CO


Image

Is it safe to assume this information from Henry on rodoh is talking about live people turning red from too much CO? I seem to be getting conflicting information here and I am looking to resolve a contradiction. According to Kues article above which quotes Berg heavily...

As F.P. Berg points out, statements such those above appears to refer mainly to clinical cases of carbon monoxide poisoning, i.e. cases where the poisoned person was found alive and received treatment before he or she either survived, or died

And,
the text within which this quote appears is read more closely, it becomes evident that the author(s), without stating this explicitly, is referring mainly or even exclusively to clinical cases.[15] In fact, specialist literature on toxicology and emergency medicine by its very nature normally focus on clinical cases, while cases involving untreated fatal cases are normally treated in writings related to forensic medicine.[16] An article from 2007 authored by Nicholas Bateman, a professor in clinical toxicology, indirectly confirms that deep red or “cherry pink” discoloration is rare among surviving victims, but more common in fatal cases (emphasis added):

“Skin blistering may occur if the patient lies unconscious for some hours before being discovered, and the skin is more likely to be cyanosed than to have the cherry-pink colour that is described to be a classical feature of CO poisoning, but rarely seen in living patients.”[17]

Cherry-red discoloration sometimes appears in non-fatal cases of CO poisoning, i.e. it is visible also in ante-mortem states (Item 1). According to available medical literature, such cases are not the rule, but on the other hand not highly exceptional.

So which is it? Do CO poisoning victims who still haven't died yet typically exhibit red skin or is it rare? Is it frequent or not?


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