The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:59 pm)

Well, I tell ya', Werd, damfino.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:02 am)

Werd wrote:
There was a CO detector in the home, but the alarm was not sounding when firefighters arrived, Carman said.

Part of the delay in diagnosing the man's health problem was that he didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face, Carman said.

"That is a relatively late symptom,'' Carman said. "By the time that you see that, it is often too late. The early symptoms could be almost anything: nausea, headache and listlessness.''

I'm guessing the firefigher was talking about classic FATAL symptoms of CO poisoning. This man who lived, "didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face." In other words, this is just one more case of someone suffering from CO poisoning, yet remaining alive and not having a noticeable red tint to his skin.


You should read the entire article again. That man was found alive by firefighters, but he died a little later because firefighters & doctors failed to see he was poisoned by carbon monoxide and to treat him accordingly. Classic late symptoms (such as a bright red face) and classic early symptoms (such as nausea, headache and listlessness) are CLASSIC ante-mortem symptoms. Classic doesn't mean rare. It means usual.

And homicidal gassings are, by definition, fatal cases of CO poisoning. So non-fatal cases of CO poisoning are of little interest to us anyway.


As I said, I myself may have to do an about face with the claim that even most live people who are poisoned with CO and have even 30-40% carboxyhemoglobin may not actually typically sport any noticeable red skin. The quotes Henry and I found about it being rare are what is motivating me to do an about face on this issue. Not to mention your apparent ripping of quotes from context. And what of the enlarged text in that Kues article above?


Kues' article above deals with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning with a red discoloration. And Henry's post (as quoted above) explained that: "But despite the many adverse mechanisms outlined in Table 6 8-11 each produces the same result: preventing oxygen from reaching tissues thus causing tissue hypoxia. In cases where the oxygen is displaced by another molecule, such as carbon monoxide, the skin may appear 'cherry red' instead of cyanotic."
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:00 am)

You should read the entire article again. That man was found alive by firefighters, but he died a little later because firefighters & doctors failed to see he had poisoned by carbon monoxide and to treat him accordingly.

Failed to notice he had been poisoned by CO. I know. It clearly said, "Part of the delay in diagnosing the man's health problem was that he didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face, Carman said." In other words, he did not turn red while still alive.

Classic late symptoms (such as a bright red face) and classic early symptoms (such as nausea, headache and listlessness) are CLASSIC ante-mortem symptoms. Classic doesn't mean rare. It means usual.

I know that. It is usual for someone who has died from CO to look red either from an apparent unusual occurence of red skin before death, or full blown cherry red livor mortis that is seen in corpses. Live people versus dead people.

And homicidal gassings are, by definition, fatal cases of CO poisoning. So non-fatal cases of CO poisoning are of little interest to us anyway.

What interests me is the claim of Henry and others in past posts that a live person who has minimum 30% carboxyhemoglobin, but upwards of 40-45% will always have their skin turn red while still alive. That seems to be not the case. It seems not to be a regular occurence. My whole point was, if I have to do an about face on this and give that one point to Nessie, I will not be winning the game 5-0 but rather 4-1.

Kues' article above deals with non-fatal cases of CO poisoning with a red discoloration.

Kues' article deals with both fatal and non fatal cases of CO poisoning. He even claimed that red skin is rare in people who are still alive after being poisoned a bit with CO, although it is not totally infrequent either. It is just not a usual occurence in live people.

On the one hand Kues indicates that ante mortem red colouring does not happen often.
3. The difference between fatal and non-fatal cases of CO poisoning

In discussing the issue of discolorations in the skin of CO gassing victims, it is important to note the difference between fatal and non-fatal (i.e. clinical) cases of CO poisoning. In the writings of anti-revisionists, we often find quotes from medical literature such as:

“The classic findings of cherry-red lips, cyanosis, and retinal hemorrhages occur rarely.”[12]

Or:

“The classic ‘cherry-red’ skin coloration is actually rare, and patients are more likely to appear pale or cyanotic.”[13]

As F.P. Berg points out, statements such those above appears to refer mainly to clinical cases of carbon monoxide poisoning, i.e. cases where the poisoned person was found alive and received treatment before he or she either survived, or died (therefore the word “patients” in the second quote).

Sounds pretty clear to me. Berg is saying that people who claim that red colouring is rare are talking about live cases of ante mortem colouring whereas with a bunch of corpses allegedly pulled out of gas chambers there would have been no doubt as to them being red from CO poisoning. All of them. Why? Simple. Because contrary to what Nessie says, corpses were out in the open in Treblinka piled up for days on end because the pits couldnt' cope with the number of people gassed - which contradicts the report saying pits were thirty meters deep. Plus Not all corpses would have been crushed and had weight piled on them preventing the cherry red of livor mortis from appearing. That argument of nessie's is wrong as shown by me and others on previous pages. But that is not my concern right now.

A statement similar to the ones quoted above can be found in the standard work A guide to general toxicology (1983):

“Carbon monoxide poisoning may result in blisters or bullae over pressure areas but the classic cherry red color of the skin is rare.”[14]

When, however, the text within which this quote appears is read more closely, it becomes evident that the author(s), without stating this explicitly, is referring mainly or even exclusively to clinical cases.[15] In fact, specialist literature on toxicology and emergency medicine by its very nature normally focus on clinical cases, while cases involving untreated fatal cases are normally treated in writings related to forensic medicine.[16] An article from 2007 authored by Nicholas Bateman, a professor in clinical toxicology, indirectly confirms that deep red or “cherry pink” discoloration is rare among surviving victims, but more common in fatal cases (emphasis added):

“Skin blistering may occur if the patient lies unconscious for some hours before being discovered, and the skin is more likely to be cyanosed than to have the cherry-pink colour that is described to be a classical feature of CO poisoning, but rarely seen in living patients.”[17]

Red skin in ante mortem patients is rare. Seems clear to me. It's not that it never happens. It just doesn't happen much.

Cherry-red discoloration sometimes appears in non-fatal cases of CO poisoning, i.e. it is visible also in ante-mortem states (Item 1). According to available medical literature, such cases are not the rule, but on the other hand not highly exceptional. Such discoloration would appear more or less directly after the blood cells had started absorbed the carbon monoxide. The visibility of the deep red discoloration is related to the concentrations of CO in the blood (i.e. the carboxyhemoglobin level), as well as other factors such as pigmentation (Item 5).

But Kues also said this which I have not quoted yet.

Cherry-red discoloration sometimes appears in non-fatal cases of CO poisoning, i.e. it is visible also in ante-mortem states (Item 1). According to available medical literature, such cases are not the rule, but on the other hand not highly exceptional. Such discoloration would appear more or less directly after the blood cells had started absorbed the carbon monoxide. The visibility of the deep red discoloration is related to the concentrations of CO in the blood (i.e. the carboxyhemoglobin level), as well as other factors such as pigmentation (Item 5). In the case of the alleged gas chamber victims it is reasonable to assume that their carboxyhemoglobin level would be much higher than that of the average CO poisoning survivor (that is 28.1%, whereas in fatal cases the concentration averages 62.3%; cf. Item 2), thus greatly increasing the number of individual cases with cherry-red discoloration appearing already ante-mortem or prior to the onset of livor mortis.

According to Item 7 fresh corpses with carboxyhemoglobin levels greater than 31% shows clear discoloration. This level is only 2.9% above that of the average survivor of CO poisoning (cf. Item 2).

And,
the cherry-red discoloration appears as a mechanical effect soon as the carbon monoxide has been absorbed by the blood cells and is thus visible on post-mortem bodies (especially pronounced in the livor mortis, as during this phase the blood is concentrated due to gravity-induced pooling) as well as in ante-mortem states (to a variable degree) and even in some cases where decomposition has already set in.


I think Nessie may be right about people who have anywhere from 30-45% carboxyhemglobin do not, in a majority of cases, sport any red on their skin, it does happen only sometimes.

"But despite the many adverse mechanisms outlined in Table 6 8-11 each produces the same result: preventing oxygen from reaching tissues thus causing tissue hypoxia. In cases where the oxygen is displaced by another molecule, such as carbon monoxide, the skin may appear 'cherry red' instead of cyanotic."

The source.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 8758,d.ZGU

I found this quote on wikipedia too and it's source is this.
Ramrakha, Punit; Moore, Kevin (2004). Oxford Handbook of Acute Medicine. Oxford University Press. p. 990. ISBN 0198520727.

And a footnote from Kues.
[16] Another example: In the article “Carbon monoxide intoxication: an updated review” by L.D. Prockop and R.I. Chichkova (in Journal of the Neurological Sciences, Vol. 262 No. 1-2 (November 2007), pp. 122-130) we read: “The classic cherry-red discoloration of the skin and cyanosis are rarely seen.” This sentence is however found in an article section headed “Clinical findings”, and again we can also glean from the context that the authors are referring to treated patients, for the following sentence reads: “Varying degrees of cognitive impairment have been reported”.

Again, this implies that red colouring is rare in live cases. So if it happens in live cases, they must have 30-45% carboxyhemoglobin. And even in those percentages, it doesn't always seem to happen. Or is the whole issue that the 30-45% range is still rare to correspond with red skin.

http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/htm/gpfact ... soning.pdf
CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING

A guide for GPs and other medical professionals

Clinical Signs

The cherry red skin colour produced wheN carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) concentrations exceed about 20% is rarely seen in life.

30% exceeds 20%. So why are people claiming that even 30% COHb rarely causes red skin? Why? Lies? Mistakes? Or truth? At the end of the day, no matter how many cases people cite about live patients rarely sporting red skin, we are never told their COHb levels. That is what is missing. But apparently experts are saying that even in levels of 20% or even 30% COHb, red colouring is rarely seen in live patients. As shown , I would be willing to bet that once a person still alive hits 40-45% they may have a higher chance of sporting red colouring on their skin than 20-30%. I just lack the source material to show how often it does happen in live patients with levels that high.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:57 am)

Werd wrote:
You should read the entire article again. That man was found alive by firefighters, but he died a little later because firefighters & doctors failed to see he had poisoned by carbon monoxide and to treat him accordingly.

Failed to notice he had been poisoned by CO. I know. It clearly said, "Part of the delay in diagnosing the man's health problem was that he didn't have the classic symptoms of CO poisioning, including a bright red face, Carman said." In other words, he did not turn red while still alive.


...what blatantly astonished the firefighter. I don't think that that trained man would have mentioned it if a bright red face was such a rare occurrence. Why be astonished not to see a very rare symptom? Makes no sense.


Werd wrote:30% exceeds 20%. So why are people claiming that even 30% COHb rarely causes red skin? Why? Lies? Mistakes? Or truth? At the end of the day, no matter how many cases people cite about live patients rarely sporting red skin, we are never told their COHb levels. That is what is missing. But apparently experts are saying that even in levels of 20% or even 30% COHb, red colouring is rarely seen in live patients. As shown , I would be willing to bet that once a person still alive hits 40-45% they may have a higher chance of sporting red colouring on their skin than 20-30%. I just lack the source material to show how often it does happen in live patients with levels that high.


One can wonder if ante-mortem red discoloration occurs rarely or if it's only rarely noticed because White-skinned people may look or turn red for various other reaons (anger, excitement, intense pain, shyness, physical effort, sunburn/tanning, obesity, etc.)? Aren't the Whites of the American countryside, who are often outdoor, pejoratively called "rednecks" after all?
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:24 pm)

hermod wrote:
...what blatantly astonished the firefighter. I don't think that that trained man would have mentioned it if a bright red face was such a rare occurrence. Why be astonished not to see a very rare symptom? Makes no sense.

Well perhaps this man's COHb level was not as high as other live people he had seen, who may have in fact turned red while stlil alive. Did anybody do a test to check his level of COHb? This seems to be the crux of the issue, as I stated in that ltitle underlined part of mine. Since people are claiming that those with 20-30% don't turn red, I am guessing tests have been done before on live people to prove this. So where are the tests for that one man that was spotted by the fire department? What were his levels? If they were low, perhaps that is why he did not turn red while others in the past have?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:05 pm)

Hello :D This is getting silly replying to each other on different forums, so hopefully I can post here. In answer to whether or not cherry red discolouration is common or rare or what the answer is (as commented on here and elsewhere)

Various sources on the symptoms for specifically acute CO poisoning;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_mon ... _poisoning

"Increasing exposure produces cardiac abnormalities including fast heart rate, low blood pressure, and cardiac arrhythmia;[20][21] central nervous system symptoms include delirium, hallucinations, dizziness, unsteady gait, confusion, seizures, central nervous system depression, unconsciousness, respiratory arrest, and death.[22][23] Less common symptoms of acute carbon monoxide poisoning include myocardial ischemia, atrial fibrillation, pneumonia, pulmonary edema, high blood sugar, lactic acidosis, muscle necrosis, acute kidney failure, skin lesions, and visual and auditory problems........One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine."


http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/carbon- ... soning-pro

High-level poisoning - The above symptoms may be more severe. In addition there may be:

Personality change.
Poor performance on the mini mental state examination.
Tachycardia and tachypnoea.
Dizziness and ataxia.
Angina, hypotension, arrhythmias.
Agitation, seizures, impairment of consciousness and respiratory failure.
Cerebral oedema and metabolic acidosis may develop.
Less common features include skin blisters, rhabdomyolysis, acute kidney injury, pulmonary oedema, myocardial infarction, retinal haemorrhages, cortical blindness and choreoathetosis.
The classical cherry red coloration is rarely seen in life although it may be seen at post-mortem.


http://medind.nic.in/maa/t07/i4/maat07i4p362.pdf

"Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases"


https://www.advocatehealth.com/condell/ ... carbon.pdf

"Signs and Symptoms CO Poisoning - Carboxyhemoglobin levels of >60%
Fatal - Death - Cherry red skin is not listed as a sign – An unreliable finding"


http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Carbo ... oning.html

"The symptoms of CO poisoning in order of increasing severity include the following:

headache
shortness of breath
dizziness
fatigue
mental confusion and difficulty thinking
loss of fine hand-eye coordination
nausea and vomiting
rapid heart rate
hallucinations
inability to execute voluntary movements accurately
collapse
lowered body temperature (hypothermia)
coma
convulsions
seriously low blood pressure
cardiac and respiratory failure
death

In some cases, the skin, mucous membranes, and nails of a person with CO poisoning are cherry red or bright pink. Because the color change does not always occur, it is an unreliable symptom to count on for diagnosis. Although most CO poisoning is acute, or sudden, it is possible to suffer from chronic CO poisoning. This condition exists when a person is exposed to low levels of the gas over a period of days to months. Symptoms are often vague and include (in order of frequency) fatigue, headache, dizziness, sleep disturbances, cardiac symptoms, apathy, nausea, and memory disturbances."


So to summarise in acute cases cherry red is described as "unusual", "rarely", "2-3%", "unreliable", "does not always occur".

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:47 pm)

hermod wrote:.......

- "cadavers placed in piles will not display any discoloration due to the pressure of the bodies pressing against one another"

The red discoloration is more intense in body parts where red cells sedimented after death occured. So bodies pressing against one another would have changed nothing to discoloration. The only way to prevent bright red blotches from appearing would have been by gassing people in outer space with zero gravity or microgravity.

Image


The image above shows how were pressure is applied the skin does not reveal any discolouration because the blood cannot settle in the squashed blood vessels of the outer skin. I am sure some blotches may appear, but there will not be the piles of cherry red corpses Berg claims there would be.

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/ ... hypostasis

The above refers to how pushing your finger firmly against the skin and held for a second or two is enough to make the lividity disappear and the skin appear pale. Then it states "Any pressure prevents the capillaries from filling....."

So we have few bodies coming out of the gas chambers showing CO discolouration and any piling of bodies resulting in blanching instead of cherry red when they are pressed together.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:15 pm)

So, Nessie, are you going to try to sell your notion that nobody noticed the red discoloration of cadavers killed with CO because all the corpses were hustled out of the gas chambers and either burned or buried before the onset of livor mortis?

Edit. Say, would sailing a cadaver thirty or forty feet out into a thirty feet deep pit to lay where and how it landed prevent a body from displaying livor mortis? How about pitching one into Arad's thirty meter deep mass grave? I believe that you said that the gas chambers had to be emptied in twenty minutes.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:42 pm)

Nessie. wrote:
hermod wrote:.......
- "cadavers placed in piles will not display any discoloration due to the pressure of the bodies pressing against one another"

The red discoloration is more intense in body parts where red cells sedimented after death occured. So bodies pressing against one another would have changed nothing to discoloration. The only way to prevent bright red blotches from appearing would have been by gassing people in outer space with zero gravity or microgravity.

Image


The image above shows how were pressure is applied the skin does not reveal any discolouration because the blood cannot settle in the squashed blood vessels of the outer skin.


I have subsequently corrected my mistake (and apologized for it).

hermod wrote:there is no discoloration in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object (piled bodies) (contrarily to what I've previously said in this thread (sorry for my mistake)).

The most important Photograph / corpse color
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 4 years 11 months ago (Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:26 pm)

Werd wrote:
hermod wrote:
...what blatantly astonished the firefighter. I don't think that that trained man would have mentioned it if a bright red face was such a rare occurrence. Why be astonished not to see a very rare symptom? Makes no sense.

Well perhaps this man's COHb level was not as high as other live people he had seen, who may have in fact turned red while stlil alive. Did anybody do a test to check his level of COHb? This seems to be the crux of the issue, as I stated in that ltitle underlined part of mine. Since people are claiming that those with 20-30% don't turn red, I am guessing tests have been done before on live people to prove this. So where are the tests for that one man that was spotted by the fire department? What were his levels? If they were low, perhaps that is why he did not turn red while others in the past have?


Yes, the Milford hospital tested his levels of carboxyhemoglobin. "Elevated/high levels" is all that I was able to find. Nothing more precise.

Officials Investigate Carbon Monoxide-Related Death in Milford

Wednesday, Apr 23, 2014

The Milford Fire/Rescue Department is issuing a warning about carbon monoxide after a 55-year-old Milford man with elevated levels died at the hospital on Tuesday.

The fire department responded to 144 Juniper Drive just after 7 p.m. on Tuesday for a possible carbon monoxide problem after the Milford Hospital Emergency Room contacted them.

A patient from the house was in cardiac arrest and had been brought to the ER an hour earlier. Tests revealed high carbon monoxide levels and officials said the patient died from his condition.

The fire department went into the house with air packs to use gas meters and found elevated levels of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide in the basement and the garage, where the patient had been found.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/loca ... 47821.html


According to Milford Fire Department Capt. Greg Carman, on Tuesday at 7:06 PM the department responded to 144 Juniper Drive for a possible carbon monoxide (CO) problem.

This notification came by way of the Milford Hospital Emergency Room, after the man was brought in for cardiac arrest from this address, approximately an hour before and tested high in CO levels, Carman said.

“Firefighters entered the home with air packs to use gas meters and detected elevated levels of CO and hydrogen cyanide in both the basement and the garage, where the patient was originally found,” Carman said.

http://blog.ctnews.com/connecticutposti ... 22703101=0


On Tuesday, April 22, at 7:06 p.m., the Milford Fire Department responded to 144 Juniper Drive for a possible carbon monoxide (CO) problem.

The notification came by way of the Milford Hospital Emergency Room, after Mastrianna was taken in for cardiac arrest and tested high in CO levels. Firefighters entered the home with air packs and gas meters and detected elevated levels of CO and hydrogen cyanide in both the basement and the garage, where Mastrianna was originally found, according to Fire Department Spokesman Greg Carman.

http://www.milfordmirror.com/15619/resi ... poisoning/


MILFORD — Police are investigating the death of a Juniper Drive resident who arrived at the Milford Hospital emergency room Tuesday evening with high carbon monoxide levels.

Firefighters tested the home at 144 Juniper Dr. and found elevated levels of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide in the basement and the garage, where the resident was found, Fire Capt. Gregory J. Carman.

http://foxct.com/2014/04/23/milford-pol ... z38uTbAAzo
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:45 am)

Atigun wrote:So, Nessie, are you going to try to sell your notion that nobody noticed the red discoloration of cadavers killed with CO because all the corpses were hustled out of the gas chambers and either burned or buried before the onset of livor mortis?

Edit. Say, would sailing a cadaver thirty or forty feet out into a thirty feet deep pit to lay where and how it landed prevent a body from displaying livor mortis? How about pitching one into Arad's thirty meter deep mass grave? I believe that you said that the gas chambers had to be emptied in twenty minutes.


Yes. Berg's claims about obvious cherry red bodies are wrong. With hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres I am saying the bodies were disposed of before fixed and obvious lividity had set in.

As for the size of the mass graves, I do not know. Will we ever be truely able to find out?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:55 am)

No Nessie it is not silly to stay on your forum. You are welcome here obviously. It matters not where you post. We are still just on our computers copying and pasting from our respective homes wherever they are in the world at the end of the day. What is silly is avoiding the claims about yellow bodies from CO poisoning (Wiernik) or the thirty meter deep pits (Arad) or the nonsense chronology about excavators at Belzec (Reder).

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:37 am)

Werd wrote:No Nessie it is not silly to stay on your forum. You are welcome here obviously. It matters not where you post. We are still just on our computers copying and pasting from our respective homes wherever they are in the world at the end of the day. What is silly is avoiding the claims about yellow bodies from CO poisoning (Wiernik) or the thirty meter deep pits (Arad) or the nonsense chronology about excavators at Belzec (Reder).


I am aware that here staying on topic is important. The topic and all my recent studies has been about skin discolouration due to CO poisoning. It is a red herring to try and deflect from that and discuss pit sizes and other colours witnesses describe.

Do you think I have provided an evidenced case as to why witnesses did not describe masses of cherry red bodies?

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Henry. » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:42 am)

@Werd...I think you may have misunderstood me.
Werd wrote:
If we go with suffocation, they are blue. If we go with CO poisoning, they should be red. However, Henry posted this on rodoh just a little while ago.

CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING

A guide for GPs and other medical professionals

Clinical Signs

The cherry red skin colour produced wheN carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) concentrations exceed about 20% is rarely seen in life.
Neurological signs must be looked for: A neurological examination, including tests of fine movement and balance (finger-nose movement, Rhomberg’s test, normal gait and heel-toe walking), a mini-mental state examination and testing of short term memory and the ability to subtract 7, serially, from 100, are useful.


Have Henry on rodoh and Hermod in this post on codoh, proven that ante mortem CO poisoning accompanied by red skin even in people with levels of 30-45% caboxyhemoglobin is rare?

I'm not sure why you think I was trying to prove that ante mortem poisoning with the accompanying signs of cherry red/pink are rare..."even in people with levels of 30-45% caboxyhemoglobin"

The example given and copied above comes from a pdf giving advice to Irish GPs, not Irish pathologists. GPs are likely to see their patients sitting alive in their surgery not laid out in the morgue as a pathologist would: thus it follows, that those who "present" in "life" will have the milder symptoms that occur below 30%. COHb concetration beyond this point (30%) will produce the cherry-red appearance - See example below

I was actually drawing attention to this: "cherry red skin colour is produced when COHb concentrations exceed 20%"

As I understand it; by adding "is rarely seen in life" the advice gives warning (implicit) not to expect cherry-red colouring in the common everyday cases that will be "seen in life"

Having warned the practitioner, the advice then continues... "Neurological signs must be looked for: A neurological examination, including tests of fine movement and balance (finger-nose movement, Rhomberg’s test, normal gait and heel-toe walking), a mini-mental state examination and testing of short term memory and the ability to subtract 7, serially, from 100, are useful"

N.B. I think the quoted concentration of (exceeding) "about 20%" is likely an error (typo?) as 30% concentration is normally suggested in medical papers and dictionaries.

Example...
CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING

carbon monoxide poisoning Intoxication due to excess carbon monoxide (CO) in ambient air, from accidental or suicidal inhalation. CO levels in normal non-smokers = 0.25–2.1%; smoking and certain industrial exposures can result in levels up to 10%.

Types, carbon monoxide poisoning

Suicidal (more common); accidental due to incomplete combustion of fuel; structural defects in fume venting in older buildings.

Clinical findings

Acute symptoms occur at 20% concentration (of CO in blood); severe symptoms at 30%; headache and confusion at 40–50%; unconciousness and seizures at 60–70%; ≥60% can be fatal. The skin of someone dying from carbon monoxide, especially in dependent areas of hypostasis, is classically described as having a cherry-pink colour, which is not seen below 30%.

Management

Hyperbaric oxygen.

Carbon monoxide poisoning (effect of CO concentrations in ambient air)
0.08%—Dizziness, nausea, convulsions in 45 minutes; loss of consciousness in 2 hours.

0.64%—Headache, dizziness in 1–2 minutes; convulsions, respiratory arrest, death in < 20 minutes.

1.28%—Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths; death in < 3 minutes.

Segen's Medical Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/carbon+monoxide+poisoning

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Hannover
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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 4 years 11 months ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:14 am)

Nessie said:
Yes. Berg's claims about obvious cherry red bodies are wrong. With hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres I am saying the bodies were disposed of before fixed and obvious lividity had set in.
But accordig the 'holocaust story line these "hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres" would have been seen by those supposedly lined up just outside the 'gas chamber' door who were supposedly being tricked into thinking they were getting showers. A simply ludicrous narrative regardless of how one looks at it. Read my points here:
Hannover wrote:The two main 'gas chambers at Auschwitz / Birkenau were exactly the same, supposedly in Kremas II & III. So let's play along with the storyline. Up to 2000 Jews were supposedly gassed until dead, then they were supposedly taken via an elevator to the crematorium directly above.

Fact: as seen in the plans, this elevator is hand drawn, and is only 4 ft X 9 ft. How in the world could 2000 Jews have been loaded onto a 4 ft x 9 ft. hand drawn elevator in just a few minutes? Remember, the storyline says that the gassings and resultant cremations were non-stop for much of the period in question.

We supposedly have another batch of 2000 Jews waiting outside, supposedly being tricked into thinking they were about to receive showers. It would have been impossible to disentangle all the supposedly dead Jews and load 2000 of them onto to this postage stamp of an elevator, hoist them by hand up to the crematory 'ovens' in just minutes.
And this repeated process meant that the crematory ovens above would not have been capable of cremating them in the time alleged, which meant a build-up, a backlog occurred.
The storyline even states that the backlog of the to-be-cremated-gassed-Jews required stacking them outside. Once again, the alleged 2000 Jews were outside in full view of this laughable backlog claim, but supposedly they still thought they were getting 'showers'. Of course, timely aerial reconnaissance photos show nothing of the kind.

Furthermore, while the Jews were waiting outside, the storyline says that a SS man with a gas mask climbed upon the roof of the Kremas (only maybe 18 inches, or close to it, above the ground, Kremas II & III were largely underground) and dropped Zyklon-B granules into a container and lowered it down into the 'holes' in the roof, into the morgues which were supposedly converted into a gas chamber. The waiting 2000 Jews would have a clear view of the man on the roof's activity, yet these 2000 Jews were supposedly not concerned and still thought they were going to get innocent showers. The storyline is utterly ridiculous.

We're not done.

The Zyklon-B pesticide granules took/take hours to complete the outgassing of their cyanide load. The storyline says that this same SS man on the roof, supposedly wearing a highly visible gas mask, withdrew the container up from the 'gas chambers' in just minutes. Remember, the Zyklon-B pesticide granules were allegedly dumped and lowered into the 'gas chambers'. And since we know that the Zyklon-B pesticide would have taken hours to finish releasing it's cyanide load we have a situation where anyone in the entire area would have been vulnerable to gassing.
Yes, the storyline also says that there were vents which were used to remove the gas, but then we are still in a situation where the entire area is vulnerable to cyanide. Not to mention that this certainly would have been noticed by the alleged waiting 2000 Jews. And where does this SS man in a gas mask put the outgassing Zyklon-B pesticide granules which he has supposedly withdrawn, which would be releasing cyanide for hours?

The entire, bizarre story is unsustainable with even the slightest scrutiny. It's no wonder why Jewish supremacists trot out senile, lying 'survivors' (who wouldn't have even survived if the tall tales were true) for emotional impact. No wonder that there are Thought Crime laws against examining this absurd process. 'House of cards' is an understatement.
and:
Hannover wrote:Image and analysis posted by ASMarques, read on.
Image
This is how the gas chambers at Auschwitz/Birkenau looked after a 'gassing'. Imagine trying to ventilate this in a just few minutes as is alleged. BTW, the vents were at the bottom of the facility.
ASMarques:
This is the scale model of Krema II in the Auschwitz Museum, apparently placed behind a glass protection in order to prevent the small dolls being stolen by visitors.

Key to the image:

0 - Reflection of the window on the opposite side of the room.

1 - Underground gallery where many hundreds of victims at a time got undressed for the fake showers in room number 2. According to some Holocaust scholars, this gallery is also supposed to have had fake showers installed in it, just to confuse the undressing victims.

2 - Underground gas chamber, called simply "morgue" or "mortuary cellar" in all German documents and blueprints, in order to fool the future generations of scholars looking for the mysteriously vanished Jewish race. This is where many hundreds of victims were gassed at a time, in a round-the-clock mass murder industrial process by Zyklon B, the same product used to preserve human lives by killing lice (unless the witnesses are lying or very, very confused).

3 - Small elevator bringing daily many thousands of gassed corpses from the underground chamber to the crematories at ground level. Known to the fun-loving SS as "The Little Elevator that Could".

4 - Crematory ovens where many thousands of corpses a day were instantly vaporized, without even having to wait for some heat to dissipate before each door opening, contrary to the ovens in your run-of-the-mill crematory. Alas, the technology of the ovens was one of the best kept secrets in the Reich (unless they were ordinary ovens operated by miracle) and no one has been able to duplicate it.

5 - The famous chimneys, producing lots of smoke, contrary to the chimneys on your run-of-the-mill crematory that produce none. This is attributed to the twisted minds of the German guards who attempted to hide their crimes from the curious in the neighbourhood by using dense curtains of artificial smoke.

Now that you know which room is which, don't let anyone distract your gaze away from the image. Picture the gold-mining brigades, struggling through the corpse-scape, trying not to absorb any cyanide residues trapped among the still palpitating bodies, in order to perform their difficult tasks, such as inspecting body orifices, pulling teeth off, smoking cigarettes and eating sandwiches (according to the Höss testimony).

Then comes the most important part. Wait for a few seconds, take a deep breath, and picture the enormous round-the-clock traffic jam at point number 3, during the process of emptying the gas chamber of bodies, through the small elevator room, with or without (as you prefer) the folks next door waiting, soap in hand, for their shower.

Finally, ask your teacher to point the place, any place, where all those typhus dead were deposited while the live folks were being gassed in the gas chamber the Germans called "a morgue".

If you get a satisfactory answer, please let me know.
The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship.
Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The Internet has demolished the lies. The tide is turning.


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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