The most important Photograph / corpse color

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:16 pm)

Here is me on page 7 Nessie.
Werd @ The most important Photograph / corpse color
The extracts I quoted from rodoh pages 26 and 27 prove that the issue of yellow corpses was put to you and you said, "I have already said do some research or ask a pathologist as to why witnesses mention other colours of lividity. It may be that those who die from CO poisoning do not just eventually go cherry red. Other colours of lividity may appear. I do not know the answer." This is an admission that you do not know the answer. Your demand that we find proof for you that corpses are yellow when we never asserted it is hilarious. You actually expect us to do your homework.


Furhter down on page 7
Werd @ The most important Photograph / corpse color
I still have yet to see an explanation as to why Wiernik claimed yellow corpses. Nessie says he answered Turnagain's inquiries into why people said yellow black and blue for corpses colours. But I haven't found it in that massive thread yet. It was put to him on page 29 by been-there he quoted it in his response on page 30 and for the next five pages (the topic is at 35 pages now), he avoided answering it, claiming he already had.


So we go to page 30 on rodoh and we find that in your first post, you are indeed quoting something from been-there on page 29. He asked again about yellow corpses.

"On the contrary, alleged eye-witnesses claimed the bodies displayed blue or yellow discolourisation, which is demonstrably FALSE for CO gas victims.
Is any of this getting through yet?"

Your response on page 30 contained no mention of the issue of yellow corpses that was put to you and you haven't touched it since on rodoh. In other words, you dodged.

You know what is pathetic about this whole thing? That is was predicted you would claim that asking about Wiernik's testimony and demanding an explanation would eventually get us accused of engaging in some logical fallacy. On page 26, Turnagain said, "Wiernik said that the cadavers turned yellow. Did they turn yellow before they turned red? Is that question a fallacy of some kind, Nessie." Sure enough, here on codoh it is a fallacy.

Nessie

The topic and all my recent studies has been about skin discolouration due to CO poisoning. It is a red herring to try and deflect from that and discuss pit sizes and other colours witnesses describe.


How the hell would we know what the skin colours are supposed to be if not for the alleged witnesses? THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE ONLY WAY WE FOUND OUT ABOUT THEM SINCE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TRUTH TELLERS. So you can't claim to want to discuss corpse colours and then not discuss eyewitness testimony from Wiernik that mentions corpse colours. That is what is called a contradiction. Do you know what that is? Do you need me to get a dictionary for you? You are clearly dodging because you know one of your precious eyewitnesses has been caught in a lie.

Nessie: I want to talk about corpse colours.
Werd: Well, Wiernik said...
Nessie: RED HERRING. RED HERRING. FALLACY OF INCREDUILTY. FALLACY OF IGNORANCE!!!


I hereby challenge you to meet me in this topic

Weirnick said yellow corpses? Correct Polish translations...

and explain your posts on rodoh. The ones where you said maybe other colours of lividity appear, you weren't sure...to the posts where yellow was brought up again to you on rodoh and you ignored it and never mentioned it again, acting like the issue was solved when it clearly wasn't. The longer you delay or make excuses to not resolve this problem of yellow, adds more and more proof that you know deep down, that Wiernik is full of shit and not a real eyewitness.

The clock is now ticking. Tick...tock...tick...tock...

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Moderator » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:50 pm)

Werd, Nessie:
Briefly. Now that you are BOTH posting at this forum please attempt to communicate in a civilized manner. We do not allow the type of back & forth language between participants that is found at 'RODOH' or 'Holocaust Controversies'. No need for a love-fest, but you get the point.
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:52 pm)

What I cannot fathom is why anything said by Wiernik should have any validity whatsoever. A principle purpose of cross examination is to test the credibility of a witness and by any definition, Wiernik has no credibility at all. He begins his narrative with the ridiculous lie that he, a sedentary middle aged man, was capable of running 70 miles non-stop, without even a drink of water while carrying cadavers for half that distance. Then there's the story of the young woman leaping a three meter tall fence. His claim that the little M&H could lift 3000 cadavers in a single pick is another howler along with his claim that it was capable of excavating the 10x25x50 meter mass graves with no auxiliary equipment.

One, possibly two such obvious lies could be at least partially excused as the product of stress or shock but the entire "A Year In Treblinka" is litany of such lies and fantasies as the bodies turning yellow from CO poisoning. Other eyewitnesses fare no better. Franciszek Zabecki's claim that he saw a woman moon-launch her pillow wrapped infant from a train window should be enough to get him laughed out of any courtroom in the world and that was just one of his bizarre fantasies. However, the hoaxer reaction seems to be, "Well, yes, what the eyewitness said in those cases went a little over the top but everything else he said is 100% spot on."

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:27 pm)

This thread is about Berg's claim that if people really did work at TII and saw mass gassing by CO, the they would have spoken about lots of cherry red corpses. They did not, so there fore they are lying.

I have produced multiple sources from medical (non Holocaust related) sites that explain how people could have worked at TII, saw mass gassings and few bodies showing cherry red lividity. Therefore Berg's claim is flawed and it will stay that way unless someone can come with an independent medical evidence that people gassed in a chamber by CO will go cherry red and there is no time gap between death and lividity starting to appear.

I am keen here to stick to that one issue. All the other issues have their own threads and I will respond there. Staying on topic and not responding to others issues is not dodging.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:24 pm)

Nessie is not merely "dodging", Nessie pretends to want "independent medical evidence that people gassed in a chamber by CO will go cherry red and there is no time gap between death and lividity starting to appear. " Precisely that kind of "independent medical evidence" is the Risser, Boensch essay from Forensic Science; corpses will display at least some cherry red coloring "immediately" after death from CO. http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Nessie has to know that perfectly well since I have brought this to people's attention again and again with other "evidence" as well.

Most of this subject matter was already discussed thoroughly at: MUEHLENKAMP: "this red color thing is more nonsense"

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:29 pm)

Nessie. wrote:This thread is about Berg's claim that if people really did work at TII and saw mass gassing by CO, the they would have spoken about lots of cherry red corpses. They did not, so there fore they are lying.
I am keen here to stick to that one issue. All the other issues have their own threads and I will respond there. Staying on topic and not responding to others issues is not dodging.
Yes you are dodging, Nessie. It was YOU who stated in this thread:
With hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres ....
Of course you are "keen here to stick to that one issue" because an issue that you brought up has now been challenged and IMO you cannot refute my post about your claims. This is real debate, Nessie.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:28 pm)

Carlo Mattogno. Chelmno. Pg 55-56.

6.4. The Color of the Corpses
About the corpses the report states:
“What was the appearance of the corpses? They were neither burned nor black. The complexion of their faces was unchanged. Almost all the dead were lying in their excrement.” (Sakowska 1993, p. 163)
“It seemed that they were only put to sleep; their cheeks were pale, and they maintained their natural skin color.” (ibid., p. 166)
The color of a corpse of a person dead by asphyxiation from carbon monoxide is known to be “cherry red” or “pink” (Berg 2003, p. 439, esp. note 22).

Charles D. Provan has challenged this finding, citing some examples of medical literature which also mention a bluish color in cases of carbon monoxide poisoning. Provan cites a medical source in 1970 on a group of suicides by carbon monoxide poisoning which had the following colors: 51 normal color; 7 bluish, 14 red, 5 cherry pink, 4 pale. Another group of people poisoned accidentally had the following colors: 44 normal color, 5 bluish, 3 red, 4 cherry pink, 2 pale. According to these examples the prevailing color is normal, but another medical source proffered by Provan explains (2004, pp. 160-162):

“At autopsy the most striking appearance of the body is the color of the skin, especially in areas of post-mortem hypostasis. The classical 'cherry-pink' color of carboxy-hemoglobin is usually evident if the saturation of the blood exceeds about 30%. Below this, familiarity and good lighting are needed and below 20%, no coloration is visible.”
So the color “cherry pink” usually manifests itself when the carboxy-hemoglobin level in the blood “exceeds 30%.” Since the “gas vans” supposedly were instruments of murder which killed the victims in 20 minutes (Sakowska 1993, p. 166), the victims must have had a much higher percentage than 30% of carboxy-hemoglobin in their blood (ibid., p. 166).

According Flury and Zernik, in fact, a percentage of 40-50% produces “headache; a state of confusion; in case of stress, collapse and fainting,” and a percentage of 60-70% “loss of consciousness, for prolonged exposure respiratory arrest (Flury/Zernik 1931, p. 202; see also Berg 2005; Kues 2008).

A study on the forensic autopsy reports of 182 bodies of people who died accidentally from carbon monoxide poisoning in Vienna between
1984 and 1994 resulted in (Risser/Bonsch/Schneider 1995, p. 596):

“We found a strong association between the carboxyhemoglobin level and the cherry-coloring of pink livor mortis. In 98.4% of unintentional carbon monoxide-related deaths livor mortis were clearly cherry-pink.”

The study confirmed that

“fresh corpses with carboxyhemoglobin levels greater than 31% show a clear cherry-pink coloring of livor mortis.”

So the alleged victims of “gas vans” murdering with carbon monoxide should normally have a “cherry-pink” color, but, as we have seen, according to the witness, they had a “natural skin tone.” Therefore, if the witness described a reality in this case, the corpses he witnessed had not died of poisoning by exhaust gas.

To me these are the interesting parts.

"The classical 'cherry-pink' color of carboxy-hemoglobin is usually evident if the saturation of the blood exceeds about 30%."

"a percentage of 60-70% “loss of consciousness, for prolonged exposure respiratory arrest "


So if COHb levels have to be 60% before someone loses consciousness, it means that someone can still be alive and on two feet, yet stumbling if they reach 40 or even 45%. And at those rates, red ante mortem colouring should appear. Mattogno thus seems to be stating with his sources that nearly all ante mortem cases will yield red skin if the percentage is high enough, but not so high that it incapacitates them.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Henry. » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:43 am)

Werd wrote:To me these are the interesting parts.

"The classical 'cherry-pink' color of carboxy-hemoglobin is usually evident if the saturation of the blood exceeds about 30%."

"a percentage of 60-70% “loss of consciousness, for prolonged exposure respiratory arrest "


So if COHb levels have to be 60% before someone loses consciousness, it means that someone can still be alive and on two feet, yet stumbling if they reach 40 or even 45%. And at those rates, red ante mortem colouring should appear. Mattogno thus seems to be stating with his sources that nearly all ante mortem cases will yield red skin if the percentage is high enough, but not so high that it incapacitates them.

Exactly!

There are three phases involved here not two as Nessie pretends. In fact Nessie concentrates on one phase (ante mortem) and confines his observations to people with COHb levels under 30% when red discolouring is hard to detect if at all present. To be accurate it must be understood that people, subjected to homicidal gassing are trapped and cannot simply remove themselves to a clinic for treatment. They must pass through these three phases.

1 - Ante mortem Before death.

2 - Peri mortem At or near the time of death.

3 - Post mortem After death.

In Nessie's evidence those suffering from CO poisoning are seen and treated ante mortem before levels of COHb get to the 30% stage. However, the people said to have been killed in gas chambers must, at some stage before death, have past that point (30%) when discolouration begins to show. This 30% threshold is noted in medical textbooks and journals.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:40 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Nessie is not merely "dodging;" Nessie is LYING. Nessie pretends to want "independent medical evidence that people gassed in a chamber by CO will go cherry red and there is no time gap between death and lividity starting to appear. " Precisely that kind of "independent medical evidence" is the Risser, Boensch essay from Forensic Science; corpses will display at least some cherry red coloring "immediately" after death from CO. http://nazigassings.com/RisserBoenschSchneider.html

Nessie has to know that perfectly well since I have brought this to people's attention again and again with other "evidence" as well. So, what kind of vile, dishonest game is Nessie playing here? Is Nessie too retarded for this forum?

......


That study uses the word immediately in relation to "immediately at the death scene" (on numerous occasions), "immediately identified" and regarding removing people "immediately from the contaminated environment". Nowhere does it say anything like "corpses will display at least some cherry red coloring "immediately" after death from CO" as you claim.

The study is about can coroners use the cherry red colouring of livor mortis as a reliable indicator that people have died from CO poisoning? The answer is yes as it in virtually all cases it will appear as and coroners should recognise such at the scene. The study goes on to criticise coroners who miss such (about a third do). It recommends coroners examine corpses thoroughly to look for the "color of livor mortis."

The study is for those who attend death scenes and it talks of livor mortis. So these are people who have been dead for a while as we know livor mortis or lividity takes at least 20 minutes to appear.

You have misinterpreted the study. I have produced multiple independent medical studies that show you are wrong as you failed to spot people rarely show discolouration immediately before or at the time of death and lividity takes time to appear.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:52 am)

Hannover wrote:
Nessie. wrote:This thread is about Berg's claim that if people really did work at TII and saw mass gassing by CO, the they would have spoken about lots of cherry red corpses. They did not, so there fore they are lying.
I am keen here to stick to that one issue. All the other issues have their own threads and I will respond there. Staying on topic and not responding to others issues is not dodging.
Yes you are dodging, Nessie. It was YOU who stated in this thread:
With hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres ....
Of course you are "keen here to stick to that one issue" because an issue that you brought up has now been challenged and IMO you cannot refute my post about your claims. This is real debate, Nessie.

- Hannover


You said "But accordig the 'holocaust story line these "hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres" would have been seen by those supposedly lined up just outside the 'gas chamber' door who were supposedly being tricked into thinking they were getting showers. A simply ludicrous narrative regardless of how one looks at it. " which is a fallacy from incredulity. Just because you find it ludicrous does not mean it therefore did not happen.

My reference to the hundreds of sonderkommandos was to do with the time it took to clear the chambers and move the bodies to mass graves or pyres. With a minimum of 20 minutes to do so before any lividity starts to appear (plus moving a body delays the appearance of lividity as the blood does not settle) there is a time gap which accounts for very few witnesses speaking to red discolouration.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:32 pm)

Nessie said:
You said "But accordig the 'holocaust story line these "hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres" would have been seen by those supposedly lined up just outside the 'gas chamber' door who were supposedly being tricked into thinking they were getting showers. A simply ludicrous narrative regardless of how one looks at it. " which is a fallacy from incredulity. Just because you find it ludicrous does not mean it therefore did not happen.
So how did these alleged "hundreds of sonderkommandos" (who were allegedly dragging countless Jew corpses) avoid being seen by the claimed batch-after-batch of 2000 Jews said to have been waiting just outside the alleged 'gas chamber' door?

A simple but important question, please do not dodge it. Thanks.


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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:00 pm)

You said "But accordig the 'holocaust story line these "hundreds of sonderkommandos clearing gas chambers to nearby mass graves or pyres" would have been seen by those supposedly lined up just outside the 'gas chamber' door who were supposedly being tricked into thinking they were getting showers. A simply ludicrous narrative regardless of how one looks at it. " which is a fallacy from incredulity. Just because you find it ludicrous does not mean it therefore did not happen.

Are you admitting then that there were hundreds sonderkommandos clearing out gas chambers that would have been seen by those lined up awaiting their demise? Please keep in mind that these are supposed assembly line death factories with gassings and cremations working non stop. If so, then one is not committing a fallacy of incredulity by asking things like, "Where are all the testimonies of survivours indicating they saw all these sonderkommandos walking around if this was the case?"

You really need to take care to take the quote from ASMarques into consideration. ASMarques is simply taking available statements from alleged witnesses and fitting them into a picture to see if they do or do not violate physical laws. Asking questions like he does is not fallacious, alright? It is demanding an answer to apparent contradictions or violations of physical laws. Feel free go answer ASMarques questions and alleviate our skepticism. People need to explain how the nazis are supposed to have cremated so many people with the supplies they had before they expect revisionists to take them seriously. You guys need to fulfuill your onus probandi.

Hannover, this has inspired a question in me. Are there any old threads you can dig up or anything you can point to for me that indicate how many sonderkommandos were supposed to be walking around in the camps and guarding the gas chambers or working in them to pull the bodies out? What was the biggest number of sonderkommandos needed at one time to clear out the chambers in ANY of the alleged extermination camps? Because if we can get a number like that, we can compare it to how many corpses were supposed to have been dragged out, checked for gold and then dragged by humans or by a cart of some kind to the pyres to burn.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Henry. » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:20 pm)

Nessie. wrote:My reference to the hundreds of sonderkommandos was to do with the time it took to clear the chambers and move the bodies to mass graves or pyres. With a minimum of 20 minutes to do so before any lividity starts to appear (plus moving a body delays the appearance of lividity as the blood does not settle) there is a time gap which accounts for very few witnesses speaking to red discolouration.

Don't forget to add the time for the tooth fairies to inspect the mass of corpses and root out the gold and diamonds from all those Jewish mouths.

Meanwhile (we are meant to believe) the next batch to be murdered and butchered are lined-up and waiting calmly for their turn in the charnel house :roll:

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:12 pm)

But guys, we do have testimony from inmates about sonderkommandos looking for teeth. There is nothing that contradicts the laws of physics about the act of searching for gold in and of itself and there is nothing absurd about witnesses claiming to have seen this happen. The absurdity starts when the numbers are too high for alleged murdered in total considering the actual capacity of the crematory ovens and also the backlog of corpses waiting to be burned in Auschwitz as ASMarques has shown. Not to mention the wrong colour of what a victim of CO gassing would look like.

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Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:55 pm)

Werd wrote:But guys, we do have testimony from inmates about sonderkommandos looking for teeth. There is nothing that contradicts the laws of physics about the act of searching for gold in and of itself and there is nothing absurd about witnesses claiming to have seen this happen. The absurdity starts when the numbers are too high for alleged murdered in total considering the actual capacity of the crematory ovens and also the backlog of corpses waiting to be burned in Auschwitz as ASMarques has shown. Not to mention the wrong colour of what a victim of CO gassing would look like.


On one side, we have a gang of liars, whose 'testimonies' are full of absurdities and blatant lies, testifying about gold teeth taken from dead bodies, and on the other side, we have the senior director of the Reichsbank testifying about Americans planting and filming bags of gold teeth (or alleged gold teeth) in the safes of the Reichsbank.

From the Nuremberg Trial memoirs of Reich press chief, Hans Fritzsche

[...]

Puhl who had been a senior director of the Reichsbank

[...]

Puhl was held in the Nuremberg prison for about a year at the end of which he appeared in the dock at the 'Wilhelmstrasse' trial. However, the Allies were not very lucky with this man, who, though he looked not unlike Funk, had a great deal more calm tenacity.

At the Wilhelmstrasse trial Puhl got an official of the Frankfurt branch of the Reichsbank to testify on his behalf. The witness declared under oath that at the time of the city's occupation by American troops the strong-room and all the safes of the bank had been completely empty; and were so when he had handed them over to the Occupation Authorities. The witness was then questioned about the film, which, according to Mr. Dodd's statement had been made immediately after the occupation of Frankfurt. To this he answered that he knew all about it because he had been personally present during its production. A few days after the occupation some U.S. lorries had pulled up at the door of the branch and the manager requested to hand over Reichsbank bags which were then filled with gold teeth, jewellery, etc. taken from the lorries and put in the empty safes. After these safes had been filled cameramen appeared and made a film of their contents.

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