The most important Photograph / corpse color

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:49 am)

Kingfisher wrote:Hannover:
One argument sometimes brought against the gas chambers is precisely that the gas was unnecessary, since the airtight chambers would have lead to suffocation, but the process would be quicker and more reliable if supplemented by a poisonous gas.

I don't know where the writers of this MSDS drew their information from, nor do I know of another source, but it makes sense. At what levels of oxygen deprivation the blue of anoxia would become the overriding factor I do not know.
Yes, I know that scientifically absurd argument. And getting rid of Zyklon-B pellets that would be outgassing for hours is 'quick and reliable', not.
Not to mention the lack of any heating of the Zyklon which assists in it's speed & effectiveness ... which is mentioned here:
Cymag and Zyklon B.
Quick & reliable & cheap would also apply to plentiful 'producer gas', which the Germans made in abundance which the silly argument avoids.
More on the utter impossibility of the Auschwitz gassings claims here:
Hannover @ D. Keren lies about open 'gas chamber' doors / see IMAGES!

It looks like borjastick just answered the question with:
"anoxic" means the total depletion in the level of oxygen
Therefore, no blue corpses.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:34 pm)

OK to quite a bit of what you said Hannover, but the topic is the blue colour mentioned in the MSDS. You are not separating one issue from another. My point was that an MSDS said bluish corpse colour was possible if oxygen level was low, which it would be in the conditions alleged. Since the reddish colour comes from retained oxygen, that could make sense, and in any case we are dealing with a technical document, not some exterminationist propaganda. Up to now we have assumed, along with F. Berg, that corpses must be red, and that so many witnesses describing them as bluish automatically invalidates their testimony. This would seem to raise some doubts.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:11 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:OK to quite a bit of what you said Hannover, but the topic is the blue colour mentioned in the MSDS. You are not separating one issue from another. My point was that an MSDS said bluish corpse colour was possible if oxygen level was low, which it would be in the conditions alleged. Since the reddish colour comes from retained oxygen, that could make sense, and in any case we are dealing with a technical document, not some exterminationist propaganda. Up to now we have assumed, along with F. Berg, that corpses must be red, and that so many witnesses describing them as bluish automatically invalidates their testimony. This would seem to raise some doubts.
I believe borjastick made it clear:
"anoxic" means the total depletion in the level of oxygen
Therefore a bluish color required a complete/total lack of oxygen, and as I have shown that was not possible.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:21 pm)

Hannover:
You seem emotionally committed to defending a predetermined point of view. Sorry, but I'm not interested in adversarial confrontation. I just want to examine objectively a piece of new evidence.

"Anoxic" was not mentioned in the MSDS, so it has no relevance. The term used was "lack of oxygen", which makes sense as there is going to be a gradation between the extremes of cherry-red and bluish. Since the cherry-red comes from oxygen in the blood, lack of oxygen means that the colour will veer toward the blue in some sort of proportion to the oxygen content. I don't know the source of this statement in the MSDS and have not found anything by googling. It also says "Cyanosis (blue discoloration of the skin) tends to be associated with severe cyanide poisonings"

I suppose that even taking this into account it seems anomalous that no witnesses ever observed the cherry-red, but then if in all cases there was a combination of poisoning and asphyxiation... The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.

If you want to pursue this line of investigation that's fine, but if all you want to do is argue then count me out.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:00 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:Hannover:
You seem emotionally committed to defending a predetermined point of view. Sorry, but I'm not interested in adversarial confrontation. I just want to examine objectively a piece of new evidence.

"Anoxic" was not mentioned in the MSDS, so it has no relevance. The term used was "lack of oxygen", which makes sense as there is going to be a gradation between the extremes of cherry-red and bluish. Since the cherry-red comes from oxygen in the blood, lack of oxygen means that the colour will veer toward the blue in some sort of proportion to the oxygen content. I don't know the source of this statement in the MSDS and have not found anything by googling. It also says "Cyanosis (blue discoloration of the skin) tends to be associated with severe cyanide poisonings"

I suppose that even taking this into account it seems anomalous that no witnesses ever observed the cherry-red, but then if in all cases there was a combination of poisoning and asphyxiation... The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.

If you want to pursue this line of investigation that's fine, but if all you want to do is argue then count me out.
I was thinking the same of you.

You are correct, I compared borjastick's DEFRA report with the MSDS report, but they appear compatible if the product he mentioned is comparable to Zyklon-B, see: Cymag and Zyklon B. There we read:
In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish.
Borjastick confirmed that DEFRA report on Cymag meant 'no oxygen', not lessened amounts.

And true, IF the gassings storyline was true; "it seems anomalous that no witnesses ever observed the cherry-red".

You can shove your last unnecessary statement.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:39 pm)

It's not going to magically change from cherry-red to blue at the moment that final molecule of oxygen disappears! That will never happen, anyway. The unknown here is the one you have raised, of how big a reduction of oxygen is needed for the corpse colour to change enough to be realistically perceived as "bluish", and whether that would be achieved in the conditions of the alleged gas chambers. I think we have enough evidence here to cast some doubt on Mr Berg's premiss, though by no means enough to invalidate it. It had appeared to be a killer argument. It may be less strong than we thought.

I am not committed to this point of view. I am trying to examine it objectively. We have what should be a reliable document that says corpses of victims of cyanide poisoning can be blue under certain conditions. It appears to me that the conditions may be met in the alleged gas chambers.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:55 pm)

Kingfisher:
If you want to pursue this line of investigation that's fine, but if all you want to do is argue then count me out.
'Count you out'? Look who's still arguing. :lol:

and:
The unknown here is the one you have raised, of how big a reduction of oxygen is needed for the corpse colour to change enough to be realistically perceived as "bluish", and whether that would be achieved in the conditions of the alleged gas chambers.
Yes, I did raise that point. Thanks.

I do agree, the-letter-of-the-law in Berg's red color point seems small beer in lieu of the massive amounts of other research in the Revisionist corner. Berg's damning 'diesel gassings' research is a good example.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Atigun
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:13 am

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:35 pm)

Nessie. wrote:This thread is about Berg's claim that if people really did work at TII and saw mass gassing by CO, the they would have spoken about lots of cherry red corpses. They did not, so there fore they are lying.

I have produced multiple sources from medical (non Holocaust related) sites that explain how people could have worked at TII, saw mass gassings and few bodies showing cherry red lividity. Therefore Berg's claim is flawed and it will stay that way unless someone can come with an independent medical evidence that people gassed in a chamber by CO will go cherry red and there is no time gap between death and lividity starting to appear.


Let's try a slightly different approach to our search. Search, "symptomatic red or pink skin color poison." Note that the type of poison is unspecified. We get almost 1.5 million hits but the first page is devoted almost exclusively to carbon monoxide and cyanide poisoning. Note that most say that the characteristic red/pink skin color is an unreliable diagnostic because it doesn't always occur. The following from a page titled, "About Health."

Telltale Coloring of Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

Unlike other conditions that decrease oxygen in the blood, victims of carbon monoxide poisoning are almost never pale or blue (cyanotic). Although it doesn't happen every time, skin coloring in victims of severe carbon monoxide poisoning will often be bright pink or flushed red.

So, it seems that Nessie's claim that the symptomatic red/pink skin color of CO poisoning is "rare to non-existent" doesn't hold up.

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2076
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:51 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.


Doesn't Mr Berg's skin-colour argument mainly focus on carbon monoxide poisonings anyway?
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

Atigun
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:13 am

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:58 pm)

hermod wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.


Doesn't Mr Berg's skin-colour argument mainly focus on carbon monoxide poisonings anyway?


I believe that it's Nessie's contention that the symptomatic red/pink skin color of CO poisoning comes from post mortem lividity which doesn't begin to appear until at least 20-30 minutes after death. According to Nessie, 20-30 minutes was sufficient time for all the gassed cadavers to be buried or set on fire which explains why nobody noticed or commented on the bright red/pink color of the Jews gassed by CO. Well, that's his story and he's apparently sticking to it.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:28 am)

hermod wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.


Doesn't Mr Berg's skin-colour argument mainly focus on carbon monoxide poisonings anyway?
I'm not sure. If it does, I take your point, but I thought he covered both.

User avatar
Nessie.
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:29 am)

Atigun wrote:
Nessie. wrote:This thread is about Berg's claim that if people really did work at TII and saw mass gassing by CO, the they would have spoken about lots of cherry red corpses. They did not, so there fore they are lying.

I have produced multiple sources from medical (non Holocaust related) sites that explain how people could have worked at TII, saw mass gassings and few bodies showing cherry red lividity. Therefore Berg's claim is flawed and it will stay that way unless someone can come with an independent medical evidence that people gassed in a chamber by CO will go cherry red and there is no time gap between death and lividity starting to appear.


Let's try a slightly different approach to our search. Search, "symptomatic red or pink skin color poison." Note that the type of poison is unspecified. We get almost 1.5 million hits but the first page is devoted almost exclusively to carbon monoxide and cyanide poisoning. Note that most say that the characteristic red/pink skin color is an unreliable diagnostic because it doesn't always occur. The following from a page titled, "About Health."

Telltale Coloring of Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

Unlike other conditions that decrease oxygen in the blood, victims of carbon monoxide poisoning are almost never pale or blue (cyanotic). Although it doesn't happen every time, skin coloring in victims of severe carbon monoxide poisoning will often be bright pink or flushed red.

So, it seems that Nessie's claim that the symptomatic red/pink skin color of CO poisoning is "rare to non-existent" doesn't hold up.


That is one source, I have quoted a number of sources before which make it clear it is rare, unreliable and one which said it occurs 2-3% of the time. The source you have used is vague and contradictory as it states "it doesn't happen every time" and then states "often". The sources which are clear on the matter say it is rare.

User avatar
Nessie.
Member
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:39 am)

Atigun wrote:
hermod wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:The point is that Friedrich Berg's skin-colour argument may not be the slam-dunk we thought it was.


Doesn't Mr Berg's skin-colour argument mainly focus on carbon monoxide poisonings anyway?


I believe that it's Nessie's contention that the symptomatic red/pink skin color of CO poisoning comes from post mortem lividity which doesn't begin to appear until at least 20-30 minutes after death. According to Nessie, 20-30 minutes was sufficient time for all the gassed cadavers to be buried or set on fire which explains why nobody noticed or commented on the bright red/pink color of the Jews gassed by CO. Well, that's his story and he's apparently sticking to it.


Not only does it not start to appear till 20 - 30 minutes after death it can take up to 6 hours to appear and from 6 to 12 hours to fix. Then moving a body stops lividity forming as the blood cannot settle. Then it only settles where there is not pressure on the skin. So the photo Berg uses is of a body at least 6 hours dead which had not been moved prior to the fixing of the lividity (as in the blood has congealed and will not flow any more).

So according to the evidence the sonderkommandos had at least 20-30 minutes to bury or cremate and in fact it was longer as the bodies were being moved from the chambers to the pits or pyres.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9898
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:29 pm)

Nessie said:
So according to the evidence the sonderkommandos had at least 20-30 minutes to bury or cremate and in fact it was longer as the bodies were being moved from the chambers to the pits or pyres.
What Nessie wishes is impossible.

This is claimed to be what the alleged 'gas chambers' looked like after an alleged 'gassing'.

Image

It would have been impossible to move this mass of corpses in 20-30 minutes as Nessie claims via a hand operated 4 ft. X 9 ft. lift, in what was a cellar for diseased corpses, to the crematorium above, or to take the alleged corpses to 'pits or pyres' near the alleged 'gas chamber' when the storyline states that another batch of Jews was waiting just outside the alleged 'gas chamber' ... unless all those Jews were blind and impervious to the alleged cyanide that would have still been exiting it's carrier material as the alleged 'gas chamber' doors were opened.

I have made these points before in this thread and elsewhere at this forum, Nessie avoids them.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2520
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: The most important Photograph / corpse color

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:59 pm)

unless all those Jews were blind and impervious to the alleged cyanide that would have still been exiting it's carrier material as the alleged 'gas chamber' doors were opened.
Hannover.

I am no scientist and have not referenced the concentration of CYMAG to Zyklon B but CYMAG had a 98% concentration so we can rightly assume it was strong. Look at the out gassing times highlighted below. If Zyklon B was on a par with CYMAG, and I believe it was, the chance of working within such a facility and being able to remove 1000-2000 bodies within 20-30 minutes is frankly ridiculous.

With a dose of 1 oz. (28.3 g.) in summer a concentration of 1 part in 1250 is maintained for 34 hr. (Cyanogas) and for 48 hr. (Cymag), and a concentration of 1 part in 5400 for about 80 hr. by both materials. This means that a concentration which will kill rabbits in 1 min. can be maintained over the second night after gassing by either substance, but Cyanogas must be applied late in the day.
Under winter conditions a concentration of 1 part in 1250 is only reached by Cymag for a short period between 16 and 25 hr. after the start of the experiments; by Cyanogas not at all. On the other hand, a concentration of moderate toxicity (1 part in 5400) is maintained for about 120 hr. Probably a dose somewhat greater than 1 oz. would be an advantage in the winter.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 1 guest