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Armor105
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Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:00 am)

I have entered into a tentative email correspondence with my mum over her and her family's experiences during and just after WW2. She doesn't know that I dispute the mainstream holocaust account, I'm just trying to glean some first hand info from her and/or her older sister.

She sent me back an excellent summary of her story which she had produced for her grand daughters school project.

I won't post the whole thing, here's some brief points:

- Sister born and raised in Lodz, Poland. Born 1939.
- Parents started hearing rumors that a ghetto was being formed for Jews somewhere in their town. 1939.
- Decided to escape to Russia along with four (out of fourteen) of their brothers and sisters. 1939.
- Went as far and deep as the Ural Mountains on the border of Siberia eventually arriving in the town of Magnitogorsk.
- Father left as soon as they settled to volunteer into the Red Army. Came back 6 weeks later, apparently rejected for having flat feet.
- Born in Magnitogorsk. 1941. [That's my mum]
- She describes much hunger and hardships in Russia at that time. 1942, contracted polio. 1943 dysentery.
- Family returned to Lodz in 1945/46.

At this point there's an important part of her testimony here:

"After my recovery, around 1945/46, we all returned to Lodz, and found - to our horror – that most of the remaining relatives perished in the war ! There is a surviving set of twins – orphans - (cousins on my mother’s side) that were shipped off to America for safety.

Also in Lodz, incredible as it may seem, we found a Jewish State School called “Yitzhak Peretz” – named after a famous Yiddish writer. It was run under the communist regime and it meant that there was no religious Jewish education but that the third compulsory language – after Polish and Russian was in fact Yiddish and not Hebrew."


- Parents both ardent communists and atheists.
- 1947. Never heard of a place called 'Israel'.

"10 years later when the school roll that numbered approximately 800 pupils started to dwindle rapidly to 200 or so in the last couple of years. The reason was that the Jewish Agency was very active in recruiting refugees willing to go to Israel at that time and also in the wake of a rise in anti-Semitism that was rearing it’s ugly head again,"

- July 7th. 1957...Lodz to Warsaw to Vienna (absorption centre) to Genoa, Italy. The Ship "ARTZA" carried them and 1500 others to Haifa.

I have written back with a few questions:

- You said your family heard rumors that the Nazi's were setting up a ghetto in Lodz and they fled. Were there many families that did the same? When you got to Magnitogorsk were there many families there from Poland? Were there many Lodz Jews who settled in Russia? If you could put a percentage on it, how many fled Lodz? 5%? 20? 50%?

- You said "My father left as soon as they settled to volunteer into the Red Army". Did all able bodied Jewish men in Magnitogorsk do the same? Did they all want to fight for Red Army? Were they called up or volunteered?

- When the Germans invaded Russia in 1941 did they get anywhere near Magnitogorsk? Did they pose a threat?

- Do you have a more exact date that you returned to Lodz after the war? Were there any families who decided to stay in Magnitogorsk?

- You say when you returned you discovered "most of the remaining relatives perished in the war!" What info do you have on this? Were they transported to concentration camps? Which ones? Was there any documentation?

- You said that one set of twins survived and were taken to America. Do you have more info on this? When were they taken to the States? Do you have names?

If anyone here has any questions they would like me to ask my mum then just post them and I will write her.
Last edited by Armor105 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:27 pm)

Armor105 wrote:At this point there's an important part of her testimony here:

[i]"After my recovery, around 1945/46, we all returned to Lodz, and found - to our horror – that most of the remaining relatives perished in the war ! There is a surviving set of twins – orphans - (cousins on my mother’s side) that were shipped off to America for safety.
[.....]
- You say when you returned you discovered "most of the remaining relatives perished in the war!" What info do you have on this? Were they transported to concentration camps? Which ones? Was there any documentation?
[.....]
If anyone here has any questions they would like me to ask my mum then just post them and I will write her.

You have certainly covered one of the most interesting points. She found out that most of her relatives perished in the war. Who did she find it out from? From an agency? From neighbours? What details were provided?
Here's a similar story from a leading UK politician:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html
Whilst I have no right to pry into your family history, there are a good few such claims made in the media and to the best of my knowledge their accuracy and origins are rarely investigated.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:15 pm)

David Milliband wrote in the Daily Mail:
My dad told me when I was a boy that 43 members of his extended family were killed by the Nazis.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2E1s8Yz9t
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Apart from the "This guy wrote that his Dad once told him..." aspect did he even know 43 members of his extended family? Exactly 43? Did he count them? Plus the near relatives who did survive. And if he did, how does he know what happened to them after the war? He wasn't even in the same country and they didn't have Facebook back then. Funny it's only the ones he knew about that survived.

Sorry if this seems a bit flippant and callous, because I don't doubt that his family did have a rough time in the war (like a lot of non-Jews, too) but I'm getting a bit pissed off with the way all this stuff is taken at face value without the application of even a tiny bit of common sense.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Kladderadatsch » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:34 pm)

Armor105 wrote:- Parents and Sister born and raised in Lodz, Poland. Older sister born 1939.
- Parents started hearing rumors that a ghetto was being formed for Jews somewhere in their town. 1939.
- Decided to escape to Russia along with four (out of fourteen) of their brothers and sisters. 1939.
- Went as far and deep as the Ural Mountains on the border of Siberia eventually arriving in the town of Magnitogorsk.
- Father left as soon as they settled to volunteer into the Red Army. Came back 6 weeks later, apparently rejected for having flat feet.
- Born in Magnitogorsk. 1941. [That's my mum]
- She describes much hunger and hardships in Russia at that time. 1942, contracted polio. 1943 dysentery.
- Family returned to Lodz in 1945/46.


This is extremely interesting. First to get some perspective on the distances involved, here's a snapshot from Google maps:

Image

The starting point, Lodz, is just a little to the west (and north) of Krakow. It's literally half a continent away.

Which naturally raises the question, Why would refugee Jews from Lodz wind up in Magnitogorsk in western Siberia? Why would they have chosen there, of all places, to go? And how did they get there? How did they even escape the murderous clutches of the nazis in the first place?

Obviously, I can't answer those questions in this specific instance. But the start of some very intriguing (possible) answers are indeed in the historical record. From Walter N. Sanning, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, pages 62-4:

The accessible remains of the secret documents of the German Economy Staff East (Wirtschaftsstab Ost) show clearly that the Soviets succeeded indeed in evacuating a large part of their means of production within the framework of a detailed plan of removal or, at least, to make them unusable for the Germans. In this connection, the secret No. 3 Fourteen-Day-Report of the German Economy Staff East dated August 30, 1941 has this to say:

    The Russian and Jewish upper classes withdrew together with the Red Army. The leading Ukrainians have been partially deported and, if they held leading positions in administration and industry. they were also forced to move east of the Dnieper. Numerous tractor and other specialists on the countryside met the same fate. In June, many young men were called up and put in garrisons in the interior of the USSR. Because of this development there is a tremendous scarcity of people capable of assuming responsible positions in administration, industry and agriculture in the Ukraine.

    Extensive economic losses have been sustained because of the systematic clearing and destruction operations of the Red Army before withdrawal. These damages have increased progressively from west to east. In the cities, the damage caused in this way affects factories and stores and, in part, also the living quarters and their contents; in the countryside, especially the stock of machinery, livestock, grain dumps and the gasoline supplies of the collective and state farms have suffered.

    The clearing action begins usually about 8-10 days before the withdrawal of the Red Army. The critical machines of the enterprises-- especially motors, have been removed, carefully packaged and loaded to be shipped to the east of the USSR. Destination addresses found in the Ukraine as a rule point to the Ural industrial area, specifically the region encompassed by Sverdlovsk -Molotov (Pehl) , Ufa-Chkalov (Orenburg)-Magnitogorsk. It seems that in the area arrangements have already been made for the reuse of machines removed from the Ukraine. The destruction usually sets in 24 hours before the Soviet troops withdraw. These actions are prepared carefully and include the burning of smaller factories, the blasting of important machine complexes and apparently also the handing over of supplies to the population to loot (contents of the stores in the cities, grain supplies in rural areas). It is quite obvious that the military resistance met in several places (e.g. the giant power station Dnepro-Ges and the aluminum-complex in Zaporoshye as well as the iron-works in Dnepropetrovsk) had one purpose only, namely, to destroy the remaining important industrial works.*

Similarly, the Mid-Month-Report dated December 8, 1941 explained that

    the destruction of the city of Kharkov began on October 21, 1941 according to accounts of the population. The destruction was carried out with extreme brutality. In many cases, the inhabitants had their houses burned to the ground before they could vacate them. Without doubt only the rapid occupation by German troops prevented them [the Soviets] from carrying out their plans to burn down the entire city. Totally destroyed are especially the water works, a bread factory, a large laundry, and by far the largest portion of factory installations. Local inhabitants reported that the systematic clearing of the most important industrial works started in August already and assumed a vast scale. Specialists and their families were forcibly evacuated. Apparently, Kharkov's industry has been re-assembled in a rough-and-ready manner above all in Chelyabinsk (western Siberia). [Kladderadatsch's note: Chelyabinsk is just to the north of Magnitogorsk; Magnitogorsk is part of the Chelyabinsk oblast.] The inhabitants say that they received letters from there according to which the deportees face a desperate situation, lack of living quarters and hunger. Observations in other places, too, reinforce the impression that the disassembly and removal of machinery follows a detailed clearing plan with the objective of moving important bottleneck equipment to areas not endangered as much in order to restart the production of war materials in substitute factories. Thus the Soviets not only disassembled and removed machinery. but also smaller equipment and tools.**

Even before the war, the lot of the people exiled to the new industrial regions in the Urals and western Siberia was sad indeed. As elsewhere in the USSR, shoes and clothing were practically unavailable in 1939 already and in 1940 even bread was rationed. Hospitals consisted of barracks, were without running water, brutally hot in the summer, ice cold in the winter, rarely clean and always overcrowded. In 1938 still, only 25% of the population of Magnitogorsk was fortunate enough to live in houses, whereas 50% were crowded into barracks and other "temporarily Constructed houses" and 25% had to be satisfied with so-called "semlianki" (Tatar huts. etc.)." Into this region, deficient in even the most basic Civilian infrastructure, the Soviets deported shortly before and after the outbreak of hostilities untold millions of Russians, Jews, Ukrainians and other nationalities of the western Soviet Union.

The hopeless situation of the deportees in Siberia is also evident in the words of the Soviet court historian Telpuchowski who said, referring to the evacuation of millions of civilians,

    the accommodation of the masses going into the millions, who had been evacuated from the areas occupied or threatened by the enemy, posed a serious problem in the hinterland which lacked the most elementary lodging facilities; they had to live in tents and sod huts. Food was scarce.***

Obviously, there are no large differences between Telpuchowski's description of the Soviet measures and the secret reports of the German Economy Staff East with regard to the desperate situation in the Soviet areas of retreat - with the one exception that Telpuchowski did not think it worth mentioning the application of the inhuman Soviet "scorched earth" policy even towards the infrastructure and supplies critically needed by the civilian population that remained behind.

* Wirtsschaftsstab Ost. Vierzehntagesbericht Wi Stab Ost (3.8.-16.8.1941), 8/30/1941, Miltaerarchiv Freiburg, Bestand RW 31/11.
** --, Halbmonatsbericht Wi Stab Ost (1.-15.11.1941), 12/8/1941, Miltaerarchiv Freiburg, Bestand RW 31/68.
*** Scott, Jenseits des Ural, p. 262, 281, 301.


In other words, Magnitogorsk was a significant destination for the evacuation/deportation/relocation of Jews in the USSR during the war, and apparently you didn't even have to be a Soviet Jew to join the parade.

Certainly the primitive conditions in the town sound pretty difficult; I can imagine that many older or less robust individuals might not have survived more than a few winters there. But then, that would imply a very different image of the "holocaust" than the one we have been taught to believe, wouldn't it, one in which the Jews "disappeared" not into the crematory ovens of those diabolical nazis, but rather into the vast frozen wastes of the USSR.

Jews from Russia and Jews from the Ukraine . . . and even Jews from Poland. German-occupied Poland.

Just as Walter Sanning said.
Der grosse Kladderadatsch war da.

-- D. Eckart Der Bolschewismus von Moses bis Lenin, "Er"

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:12 pm)

Datsch,

That makes you a Jew, then. A good reminder to some fatatics that eat jews at every occasion.

I would say that you mum is a very honnest person and that her responses make sense. And i am willing to hear some answers from your last questions you've adressed her.

I have no time now to dug deeper, but great post!

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:49 pm)

I believe the OP was by Armor105. You have chutspah, Balsamo. A blind person can see who the fanatics are, the first letter is 'Z'.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:22 pm)

Sorry to both of you :oops:

As i said, i have no time now, so i mixed things up...my message is the same but adressed to different persons.

My apologies again...
Conclusion : One should not post while preparing children's dinner... :wink:

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:54 am)

Am I right in saying the Nazi's were actively encouraging emigration of Jews out of Lodz even in 1939?

Does anyone know what month in 1939 they began to force Jews into the Lodz ghetto?

Were they basically saying...either we concentrate you into a ghetto or you leave to the east?

I will respond to the posts here when I get back from work tonight. Thanks to everyone for the input.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:21 am)

Armor105 wrote:Does anyone know what month in 1939 they began to force Jews into the Lodz ghetto?


Ghetto was established 10th of December 1939 by the order of Uebelhoer, so probably not before that. In November there was given, among other things, order for yellow armbands for Jews, and shops owned by the Jews were marked, so the ghetto order could have not been that big surprise.

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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:18 am)

EtienneSC wrote:You have certainly covered one of the most interesting points. She found out that most of her relatives perished in the war. Who did she find it out from? From an agency? From neighbours? What details were provided?


Indeed, this is the part I'm particularly interested in. I have to tread carefully with my mum obviously and there is an advantage which is at the same time a disadvantage...that being...she was extremely young at the time and therefore was not too emotional involved with these family members that she supposes perished in the war, but at the same time she is kind of a second hand witness as much of her info will come from her older sister and parents.

To be fair, she has only said at this point that her extended family 'perished in the war' which may well be true. No mention of death camps or gas chambers.......yet.

Still waiting for her reply to my questions. I will try to get more info on this particular point. Thanks for your interest Etienne.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:20 am)

Kingfisher wrote:Apart from the "This guy wrote that his Dad once told him..." aspect did he even know 43 members of his extended family? Exactly 43? Did he count them? Plus the near relatives who did survive. And if he did, how does he know what happened to them after the war? He wasn't even in the same country and they didn't have Facebook back then. Funny it's only the ones he knew about that survived.

Sorry if this seems a bit flippant and callous, because I don't doubt that his family did have a rough time in the war (like a lot of non-Jews, too) but I'm getting a bit pissed off with the way all this stuff is taken at face value without the application of even a tiny bit of common sense.


AS for my mums family, it seems they had the hardest time when they fled into Russia. Damn nearly starved to death out there the lot of 'em.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:45 am)

Kladderadatsch wrote:This is extremely interesting. First to get some perspective on the distances involved, here's a snapshot from Google maps:

The starting point, Lodz, is just a little to the west (and north) of Krakow. It's literally half a continent away.

Which naturally raises the question, Why would refugee Jews from Lodz wind up in Magnitogorsk in western Siberia? Why would they have chosen there, of all places, to go? And how did they get there? How did they even escape the murderous clutches of the nazis in the first place?

Obviously, I can't answer those questions in this specific instance. But the start of some very intriguing (possible) answers are indeed in the historical record. From Walter N. Sanning, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, pages 62-4:


Excellent info Kladderadatsch!

Now I know why my mums family moved/were relocated to Magnetogorsk.

The Red Army had made early plans to move a workforce and equipment to the region in the event of a German victory on the eastern front.

Kladderadatsch wrote:In other words, Magnitogorsk was a significant destination for the evacuation/deportation/relocation of Jews in the USSR during the war, and apparently you didn't even have to be a Soviet Jew to join the parade.


I'm sure the Reds thought the more the merrier. As long as your fundamentals line up with the planks of Communism (and Judaism most certainly does!) they would have you on board. Indeed many, like my grandfather, volunteered for the Red Army!

Kladderadatsch wrote:Certainly the primitive conditions in the town sound pretty difficult; I can imagine that many older or less robust individuals might not have survived more than a few winters there. But then, that would imply a very different image of the "holocaust" than the one we have been taught to believe, wouldn't it, one in which the Jews "disappeared" not into the crematory ovens of those diabolical nazis, but rather into the vast frozen wastes of the USSR.


Right. Imagine how many of those millions who went East at the outbreak of war didn't survive.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:00 am)

Balsamo wrote:That makes you a Jew, then.


I am only a Jew according to orthodox Judaism. To be more precise an apostate Jew (thus sentenced to death).

According to myself and to God, I am a Christian.

Balsamo wrote: A good reminder to some fatatics that eat jews at every occasion.


I wouldn't know anything about eating of Jews.

Balsamo wrote:I would say that you mum is a very honnest person and that her responses make sense.


I agree they make sense. Primarily because she has not yet mentioned death camps and gas chambers.

Balsamo wrote:And i am willing to hear some answers from your last questions you've adressed her.


I look forward to those too.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:09 am)

chim-pa wrote:
Armor105 wrote:Does anyone know what month in 1939 they began to force Jews into the Lodz ghetto?


Ghetto was established 10th of December 1939 by the order of Uebelhoer, so probably not before that. In November there was given, among other things, order for yellow armbands for Jews, and shops owned by the Jews were marked, so the ghetto order could have not been that big surprise.


And so many, including my mothers family, left.

I found this:

At the outbreak of the War, many Jews left the city, in fear of persecution, to settle in Warsaw and other cities in the General Government or to the territories occupied by the U.S.S.R. The German army entered Lodz on September 8, 1939. The Germans forced many Jews to leave Lodz and deported them to cities in the General Government. Between September 30 and May 1, 1940, 70,000 Jews left Lodz.

SOURCE: jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Questions For My Mother

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:15 am)

My Mum:

Armor105 wrote:- 1947. Never heard of a place called 'Israel'.

"10 years later when the school roll that numbered approximately 800 pupils started to dwindle rapidly to 200 or so in the last couple of years. The reason was that the Jewish Agency was very active in recruiting refugees willing to go to Israel at that time and also in the wake of a rise in anti-Semitism that was rearing it’s ugly head again,"

- July 7th. 1957...Lodz to Warsaw to Vienna (absorption centre) to Genoa, Italy. The Ship "ARTZA" carried them and 1500 others to Haifa.


Jewish virtual library:

"Within two years after the end of German occupation of Lodz, the Jewish community was rebuilt to be the second largest in Poland. More than 50,000 Jews settled in Lodz by the end of 1946, many of whom lived in the USSR during the Holocaust. Jewish institutions were rebuilt and operated until 1950, when Poland fell under complete Soviet control. Half of Lodz's Jewish population left for Israel by 1950. A second wave of immigration to Israel took place in 1956-57. Only a few thousand Jews remained, however, most of them left after an escalation in anti-Semitism following Israel's Six-Day War in 1967. Today only a few hundred Jews live in Lodz."

Lines up nicely.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.



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