Questions For My Mother

[Armor105]

The problem is: That is complete bullshit! These wikipedia clowns have no idea what they're talking about. A few of these cases might have been typhoid fever, but most of them died with high probability from typhus.
I told you about the confusion with typhus and typhoid. If you look up "Typhus" in a German medical dictionary, you get the entry for typhoid fever. The German word "Typhus" refers to the disease that is known in English as typhoid fever. And the same problem exists in several languages.

Typhoid epidemics with tens of thousands of victims, and then several of such outbreaks in succession, are basically impossible. These outbreaks can only have been typhus.

According to this wikipedia article tens of thousands of soviet POWs died form several typhoid fever outbreaks, but only a few thousand from one typhus outbreak. That's completely ridiculous.

And that's the reason why I suspect that the parents of the twins you referred to died from typhus and not from typhoid.

But you can never be sure. It could have been typhoid, it's not impossible.

What you say seems logical.

The "twins parents" means your mother's sister Rivka and her husband? We're talking about your aunt, right?

Erm......my Great Aunt Rivka I think?

Lemme see....my mums mothers sister..yeah....Great Aunt.

EDIT: I get your confusion now. The bit on the previous page that starts "and now to my Mothers side of the family..." thats my mum talking not me.

I've asked my mum why the heck her aunt didn't go with my mums family further east. Why they stayed in Minsk so long. I'd be interested with the answer to that.

I suspect the Red Army were running things with regard to deportations or as my mum puts it....."escapes".

[Armor105]

Those are press releases, there are rarely accurate especially during war time...Could also be a misunderstanding, as a load of ghettos were being "liquidated" at that time.
The Lodz Ghetto lasted untill 1944...that does not mean that some transfer among its population did not happen of course...

The part that interests me in that quote is in bold.

"The fate of the Jews in the latter city was unknown, but the agency said it was believed they also were killed."

I mean,....the parallels are inescapeable...

MUM: Regrettably, we never found any information or documents of our relatives who perished in the gas chambers.

[Occam's Razor]

EDIT: I get your confusion now. The bit on the previous page that starts "and now to my Mothers side of the family..." thats my mum talking not me.

Yep. When you posted it yesterday I got that. But when I read it again today I missed the part that makes it clear that your mother was talking to you.

[Armor105]

Apparently there is info on the deportations of Jews from Lodz in C. Mattogno, Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung 7(1) (2003), pp. 30-36

Does anyone know if there is an English translation of this paper?

[Kingfisher]

Apparently there is info on the deportations of Jews from Lodz in C. Mattogno, Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung 7(1) (2003), pp. 30-36

Does anyone know if there is an English translation of this paper?

Try Chapter 15 of Mattogno's Chelmno. Free download from Holocaust Handbooks.

[Armor105]

Try Chapter 15 of Mattogno's Chelmno. Free download from Holocaust Handbooks.

Excellent Kingfisher!

Got some useful info there. From the quotes in that chapter we have possible destinations of Lodz Jews as:

- The reclamation areas of the Pripyat marshes and the Jewish agricultural colonies near Krivoi Rog, Ukraine
- Pinsk or Galicia
- Occupied France or Bessarabia
- Minsk, Kovno or Riga

Here's the relevant quotations:

“Subsequently rumors had it that the Jews would be transferred from Lodz to the reclamation areas of the Pripyat marshes and the Jewish agricultural colonies near Krivoi Rog, Ukraine.”

- Reitlinger, Gerald, La soluzione finale. Il tentativo di sterminio degli Ebrei d’Europa 1939-1945. Il Saggiatore, Milano, 1965. Page 115.

“Officially the purpose of this deportation is not revealed to the deportees, but in private the Germans have launched a different version: a center for the entire district will set up at Chemno, which will be one stage of the transfer into the region of Pinsk or to Galicia.”

- From Report entitled “Masowe egzekucje ydów w pow. Kolskim” (Mass Execution of Jews in the Kolo District) of 25 March 1942. Maria Tyszkowa 1992b, p. 52. The report was published in 1943 in: Apenszlak 1943, pp. 115-118.

“In the second half of November 1941 the news spread in the cities of the Kolo district (Warthbrücken district) that the entire Jewish population of this area had to be transferred to the region of Pinsk or to eastern Galicia.”

- Sakowska, Ruta, Die zweite Etappe ist der Tod. NS-Ausrottungspolitik gegen die polnischen Juden gesehen mit den Augen der Opfer. Edition Entrich, Berlin, 1993.

“In the [Lodz] ghetto the word goes around persistently that the first two transports of evacuees were directed to occupied France, the other in Bessarabia.”

- 'Chronicle of the Lodz ghetto' bulletin no. 24 of 1-3 May 1942.

“Lodz was more or less cut off from the outside world. There was no direct contact but it had been learned that ‘unproductive elements’ had been deported from Lodz to Minsk, Kovno and Riga.”

- Zionist delegate Meleh “Noi” Neustadt, in two long reports of 25 and 27 May 1942 addressed to Palestinian Jewish institutions as quoted in Laqueur, Walter, The Terrible Secret, Penguin Books, New York, 1982.

[Armor105]

Got another reply back from my mum. It was pretty short this time.

MUM: In Minsk the twins parents died of typhoid epidemic in 1943

ME: Typhoid fever or typhus (two different diseases)?

MUM: The disease my auntie Rivka and her husband died of is defenatly Typhus but there were other epidemics I'm sure and you'll have to reaserch by yourself. As for your questions about our or anybody elses journey I don't remember anything. The first thing I recall is the kindergarden attached to the Jewish school where I was sent at the age of four.

ME: I know its hard to speculate but, did anyone mention where the Jews who remained in the Lodz ghetto were getting deported to?

MUM: I don't know which getto or concentration camps they were sent to. All I know is that no one was there when we came back.

[PotPie]

Armor 105. Welcome. It's not often someone of Jewish background is willing to hear the revisionist position, let alone post with them on a forum about it. Unfortunately it tends to be that the common media-disseminated viewpoint is that revisionists are either Nazis or Nazi apologists when often this isn't the case at all, myself included. I recall very clearly when I first came to understand more of what happened with the mass gassing stories. I went into Yahoo! Chat into some Jewish chatroom and had this dumb idea in my head that they'd actually appreciate knowing people weren't gassed. Of course, I was angrily attacked instead. It's kind of odd, really, to think about it, almost as if they somehow wanted this fate or something. It just seems people would be happy to hear alternatives and the possibility that things weren't as bad as people thought.

[PotPie]

Apparently there is info on the deportations of Jews from Lodz in C. Mattogno, Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung 7(1) (2003), pp. 30-36

Does anyone know if there is an English translation of this paper?

I don't know offhand, but not all of Mattogno's stuff has been translated. You may have to download the pdf of it and paste sections to Google translate.

[Armor105]

Armor 105. Welcome. It's not often someone of Jewish background is willing to hear the revisionist position, let alone post with them on a forum about it. Unfortunately it tends to be that the common media-disseminated viewpoint is that revisionists are either Nazis or Nazi apologists when often this isn't the case at all, myself included. I recall very clearly when I first came to understand more of what happened with the mass gassing stories. I went into Yahoo! Chat into some Jewish chatroom and had this dumb idea in my head that they'd actually appreciate knowing people weren't gassed. Of course, I was angrily attacked instead. It's kind of odd, really, to think about it, almost as if they somehow wanted this fate or something. It just seems people would be happy to hear alternatives and the possibility that things weren't as bad as people thought.

Shall I ask my mum?

Mum, if you could choose between the holocaust being a complete hoax BUT your relatives wern't victims of horrendous atrocities and you might well have descendants of relatives alive and well OR the holocaust is true and everyone is dead BUT we have the Jewish State of Israel....

....which would you choose?

Maybe that question is a few weeks away yet.

I've written back asking when she first heard rumors of Nazi gassings and if that put off families trying to search for relatives.

[PotPie]

Armor, honestly, I wouldn't go there. It would probably start a big issue with your family and you may end up looked upon like a lunatic.

Your other questioning about the rumor of Nazi gassings, though, is very interesting. I look forward to hearing back. I've always been interested in (authentic) testimonies of the era.

[Armor105]

Armor, honestly, I wouldn't go there. It would probably start a big issue with your family and you may end up looked upon like a lunatic.

Your other questioning about the rumor of Nazi gassings, though, is very interesting. I look forward to hearing back. I've always been interested in (authentic) testimonies of the era.

Uhm...ya....I'll go with question number 2 for now.

[Occam's Razor]

MUM: The disease my auntie Rivka and her husband died of is defenatly Typhus but there were other epidemics I'm sure and you'll have to reaserch by yourself.

Interesting, isn't it?

Can we be sure that she understands the difference?
I mean, she doesn't explain why she first said typhoid, and now definitely typhus.
Did you explain the difference to her, or did you simply ask "ME: Typhoid fever or typhus (two different diseases)?"

I'm sure there was an enormous death toll from typhus on Soviet territory during the war. And the Soviets also tried to delouse people regularly.

But you never hear about that, because it's a taboo.

Shall I ask my mum?

Mum, if you could choose between the holocaust being a complete hoax BUT your relatives wern't victims of horrendous atrocities and you might well have descendants of relatives alive and well OR the holocaust is true and everyone is dead BUT we have the Jewish State of Israel....

As PotPie said, be very careful. Many people literally freak out when they realize that you "deny" the holocaust. Normal, nice and intelligent people.

Back to the topic and the fate of your relatives.
Have you tried to contact the International Tracing Service at Bad Arolsen?

http://www.its-arolsen.org/en/homepage/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Tracing_Service

And the Yad Vashem Shoah Database ("The Central Database of Shoah Victims' Names"):
http://db.yadvashem.org/names/search.html?language=en

[Armor105]

My mum sent me a picture of her family.



Wolf Woziwoda is there with the beard near the right side.

[Armor105]

Search for Woziwoda on yad vashem's index.

Here's my great grandpa Wolf:

The Central Database of Shoah Victims' Names

Here's the testimony sheet:



Source: Pages of Testimony
Last Name: Vozivda
First Name: Volf
Gender: Male
Place of Birth: Lodz
Citizenship: Poland
Marital Status: WIDOWER
Permanent Place of Residence: Lodz, Poland
Place during the war: Lodz, Ghetto, Poland
Place of Death: Chelmno, Extermination Camp, Poland
Type of material: Page of Testimony
Submitter's Last Name: Ruza
Submitter's Last Name: Baum
Relationship to victim: GRANDDAUGHTER
Is the Submitter a Survivor?: YES
Item ID: 9543814

My Aunt who lives in Israel, her surname is Ruza and my mums maiden name is Baum. They are the submitters I guess. The two grand daughters.

Interesting they are classed as survivors. My Aunt went East in 1939 and my mum was born in Magnitogorsk in 1941.