Transits through Chelmno

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Hektor
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:05 am)

Rankweil wrote:I don't see alot of people being convinced by the argument that these were transit camps and then having no documentation or witnesses to prove it. Maybe I"m wrong.
Well, there is witnesses and documentation. But there is still more research on it needed. More documentation and evidence would fill in the gaps.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:16 am)

There's witnesses? Details please?

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hektor » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:21 am)

Rankweil wrote:There's witnesses? Details please?

More details are in the literature we mentioned previously in this thread.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:23 am)

Hannover wrote:
Rankweil wrote:What evidence do we have for them? Thanks!

It is well documented that the Germans sent Jews out of the camps, why should Chelmno be any different?
The proof that they were sent elsewhere rests with the fact that it is certain they were not murdered, so therefore they were necessarily transited out. That is unless you have proof of extermination.

- Hannover


Hang on a second dude. We are trying to gather info or documentation that we can produce that will indicate to opponents/exterminationists/mothers who had families in Lodz, that Jews who were deported from Lodz and the surrounding areas and stopped in the Chelmno transit camp actually got out of there and moved on to somewhere else.

Thats the feeling I'm getting from this new member Rankweil, he's sniffing around for some solid stuff on Jews who had been in Chelmno. Some witnesses or some documentation or something that we can hold up and say hey! look...heres some examples of Jews who have been through Chelmno!

I wouldn't mind a bit of that too to be honest. If you don't have it, you can just say....we don't have the info...ya know?
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:25 am)

Hannover wrote:No Rankweil, it is the Believers false assumption of 'Without proof we say the labor camps were death camps, therefore everyone sent to them was exterminated' which is the pretzel logic here. By not being able to prove 'extermination' the entire matter is basically irrelevant. They cannot produce a viable murder weapon, they cannot produce human remains as alleged in their absurd story. We're talking about alleged genocidal murder. Where is the proof? There is none.

- Hannover


Yes but, it would just be nice to have something that proves Jews went through Chelmno and came out the other end. If there is nothing, then fine.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:28 am)

Hannover wrote:...the lack of Reichsbahn records is indicative of document removals, even empty train return trips would have records. There was a war on and the whereabouts of vital rail stock was crucial to that effort.
- Hannover


Whats the Reichsbahn records, and if we had them might they give us evidence of Jews transiting out of Chelmno?
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:29 am)

Hektor wrote:More details are in the literature we mentioned previously in this thread.


Have you read the literature Hektor?

Can you gimme some quotes by witnesses who have been through Chelmno?

I could really do with some of that. Cheers.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:48 am)

Yes, Armor. That's exactly what I think will win the day.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:54 am)

Rankweil wrote:Yes, Armor. That's exactly what I think will win the day.


I think personally, the day is already won my friend.

The standard holocaust narrative is so absurd that no-one who honestly studies the issue can come out as a believer.

But it would be nice to shore up every angle of the revisionist position. I've only just started looking into Polish Jews movements out of Lodz, but so far...there doesnt seem to be that much we can use in our favour. Not that it effects the end result of course. Revisionism has won without a doubt.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:58 am)

We do have this somewhat ambiguous quote that is reproduced in the book 'Chelmno' by Mattogno:

“Officially the purpose of this deportation is not revealed to the deportees, but in private the Germans have launched a different version: a center for the entire district will set up at Chelmno, which will be one stage of the transfer into the region of Pinsk or to Galicia.”

- From Report entitled “Masowe egzekucje ydów w pow. Kolskim” (Mass Execution of Jews in the Kolo District) of 25 March 1942. Maria Tyszkowa 1992b, p. 52. The report was published in 1943 in: Apenszlak 1943, pp. 115-118.

What do you think of that Rankweil?

I think I would need to read more of the surrounding context to really understand it.
Last edited by Armor105 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:15 pm)

Is that what German officials are saying amongst themselves or what they are saying to German civilians? I can't tell.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:20 pm)

Rankweil wrote:Is that what German officials are saying amongst themselves or what they are saying to German civilians? I can't tell.


I dunno....I don't understand the "launched a different version" bit.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:38 pm)

Some very good information on the resettlement of Jews from Mattogno's 'Chelmno':
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/23-c.pdf
It's obvious that the numbers allegedly sent to Chelmno were in many cases sent directly from Lodz to a resettlement / work site. IOW, Jewish supremacists promote a fraudulent number to begin with ... and then cannot prove 'extermination'. Pathetic.

- Hannover

Reitlinger reports that some Jews who had been deported to ód
were transferred to an unknown destination with minimal luggage.
From a letter of Rosenberg’s office of 25 October 1941 we can glean
that it was planned to use a greater number of Jews fit for labor for
work in the rear of the Eastern Front (Reitlinger 1965, p. 115):
“Subsequently rumors had it that the Jews would be transferred
from ód to the reclamation areas of the Pripyat marshes and the
Jewish agricultural colonies near Krivoi Rog, Ukraine.”
In a clandestine report entitled “Mass executions of Jews in the Koo
district”
of 25 March 1942 one reads:132
Officially the purpose of this deportation is not revealed to the
deportees, but in private the Germans have launched a different version:
a center for the entire district will set up at Chemno, which
will be one stage of the transfer into the region of Pinsk or to Galicia.

A report by the Oyneg Shabbos shortly thereafter stated (Sakowska
1993, p. 186):
In the second half of November 1941 the news spread in the cities
of the Koo district (Warthbrücken district) that the entire Jewish
population of this area had to be transferred to the region of Pinsk
or to eastern Galicia.

In 1943 the Canadian demographer Eugene M. Kulischer mentioned
the swamps of Pinsk (in the Pripyat) among the destinations of the Jewish
deportations (Kulischer 1943, pp. 110f.):
Since the summer of 1942 the ghettos and labour camps in the
German-occupied Eastern Territories have become the destination
of deportees both from Poland and from western and central Europe;
in particular, a new large-scale transfer from the Warsaw
ghetto has been reported. Many of the deportees have been sent to the labour camps on the Russian front; others to work in the marshes
of Pinsk, or to the ghettos of the Baltic countries, Byelorussia and
Ukraine.

As Aly has documented, draining the marshes of Pripyat was a project
that the German administration had begun to seriously discuss in
April/May 1941 (Aly 1995, pp. 275-279; see chapter 1). Thomas Sandkühler
confirmed (1996, pp. 110f.):
Rosenberg’s first position pager on the Soviet Union of 2 April
[1941] shows that the Pripyat marshes were already under discussion
in the spring of 1941. [...] Perhaps it was intended to concentrate
the Jews of the General Government temporarily in eastern
Galicia, and then push them into the swamps of Pripyat.

The “Chronicle of the ód ghetto” contains several clues in favor
of this plan. The report no. 6 of 10-13 January 1942 shows the first anticipation
of the future evacuations (Dbrowska/Dobroszycki 1965, vol.
I, p. 385):
The transports will comprise 700 people per day. The evacuees
may carry with them baggage of 12.5 kg per person. All money possessed
by the expellees must be changed to German marks at the assembly
point.

The “selection” criterion for the deportees, as we have seen above,
was inability to work: Jews unable to work had to be transferred from
the ghetto to make room for newcomers fit for work. But the bulletin
no. 7 of 14-31 January 1942 describes the procedure as follows (ibid., p.
392):
The evacuees received their deportation orders in the mail,
which called on all the individuals specified (as is known, during the
entire period established for the deportation all family members are
being evacuated, in certain cases even together with other resident
persons [in the same premises] who were not part of the family) to
report on the indicated day – more or less within three days after delivery
of the order – at the meeting place, organized in no. 7 Szklane
Road.

So the policy of deportation essentially concerned families and
households, rather than those unable to work, and extant evacuation
name lists fully confirm this. The same report states that the deportation
train consisted of 20 passenger coaches with 55 people per wagon
(ibid., p. 393).
The bulletin no. 14 of 10 to 14 April reported as follows about the
first news from the deportees (ibid., pp. 457f.):
On 12 April, at Balucki square, a senior officer of the Secret
Police stopped briefly who was the head of the camp in which the
deportees from the ghetto were. This is the first reliable source of information
about the deportees; to be exact, it is worth adding that
the version most persistently spread about [their] whereabouts has
been confirmed this time. Hence it has now been irrefutably established
that the camp is located in the outskirts of the town of Koo,
now called Warthbrücken. The camp contains 100,000 Jews, and
from this it can be concluded that in addition to the 44,000 deported
from the ghetto, Jews from other cities were concentrated as well.
Earlier this huge camp had been the place of residence of Germans
of Volhynia. Apparently 30,000 people used to live there. They left
decently housed barracks and even furniture at the disposal of the
Jews. The provisioning of the camp, it seems, is exemplary: those
able to work are employed within the camp, for road repairs and for
agricultural labor. In the near future workshops will be organized.

The bulletin no. 24 of 1-3 May 1942 states (ibid., p. 497):
In the ghetto the word goes around persistently that the first two
transports of evacuees were directed to occupied France, the other
in Bessarabia.

The bulletin no. 25 of 5 May 1942 informs that the first two transports
of western Jews from the ghetto included “even physicians and
health care staff” (ibid., p. 504).
Jews from ód were also sent to the Baltic countries. Herman
Kruk, a Polish Jew who fled to Vilnius in 1939 and subsequently became
an resident of the local ghetto, wrote in his diary on 4 July 1942
(Kruk 2002, p. 319):
Now I learn from two young people who were taken out of the
ód Ghetto in March that ód has a ghetto. There is no shooting,
and mass executions are unknown. The only thing is, people are taken
off to work. They figure that about 10,000 Jews have recently
been sent out of ód. […] Both of the young men escaped from such
a group [of workers], and after a week of wandering, they were arrested
in Vilna [and taken to] Lukiszki [a prison] and were released
from there only two days ago. Here in the ghetto they were clothed,
and soon they will be sent to forest work.

On the same note he added:
140 CARLO MATTOGNO, CHEMNO
“Just received a message from ód. For us, ód is one of those
cities from which you can obtain almost no information. Of course,
the rumors from there are crazy and wild, and according to them, it
is already certain that there are no Jews in ód.
[…] Now the young people know what it is to be sent out to work.
They are dragged around from place to place; they don’t know
where they are or what they are doing. From time to time, groups
are pulled out and disappear, and they assume that they are shot.”
Avraham Tory, another Jew who lived in the ghetto of Kaunas
(Kovno) and who kept a diary, wrote on 14 July 1942 (Tory 1990, p.
111):
Four Jews from ód have been brought to the [Kovno] Ghetto
hospital for surgery. They had spent a long time in a labor camp.

And on 30 July he noted (ibid., p. 116):
The ód Jews who had been employed at the construction of
the Kovno-Vilna highway and were transferred to Riga will be replaced
by 500 workers from the [Kovno] Ghetto.

In two long reports of 25 and 27 May 1942 addressed to Palestinian
Jewish institutions, the Zionist delegate Meleh “Noi” Neustadt confirmed
(Laqueur 1982, pp. 188f.):
Lodz was more or less cut off from the outside world. There was
no direct contact but it had been learned that ‘unproductive elements’
had been deported from ód to Minsk, Kovno and Riga.

On the other hand, there is also a letter to the Gestapo in ód dated
11 May 1943 which reads:
Re.: Delivery of iron material to the Sonderkommando K.
I have brought the following delivery to the Sonderkommando
and request to hand back to me the necessary iron bills.

Among the materials listed there was “1 complete disinfection oven
with chimney 2,050 kg” (1. kompl. Desinfektionsofen m. Schornstein
2.050 kg).133
The camp had to be much greater than what orthodox Holocaust historiography
claims, because already on 27 May 1942 it had 370 railway
cars full of clothing:134
133 T-1298. Cf. State of Israel 1993, vol. III, p. 1202.
134 Letter by Otto Luchterhandt, Deputy Head of the ód ghetto, to the Landeswirtschaftsamt
Posen dated 27 May 1942, in: Eisenbach 1946, p. 233.
CARLO MATTOGNO, CHEMNO 141
At the Sonderkommando Lange an estimated 370 railway cars
with garments are stored, for the removal of which some 900 trucks
with trailers are necessary […]”

According to the data claimed by orthodox Holocaust historiography,
79,000 people had been evacuated to Chemno by May 1942,
each of whom was allowed to take along 12.5 kg of luggage in addition
to the clothes they wore. This luggage consisted certainly not just of
clothes. To have a reference point, 97,000 full sets of clothes for men
without underwear, 76,000 equivalent sets for women and 89,000 pieces
of silk underwear filled 34 railway cars; 2,700,000 kg of rags in turn
filled 400 railway cars.135
Based on the latter figure, 340 railway cars would have contained
2,295,000 kg of clothing, so that each deportee would have had to bring
along 29 kg of clothing on average! The first figure shows, however,
that 76,000 full sets of female clothing occupy less than 34 carriages.
Hence it is obvious that the 340 wagons of clothing could not have belonged
merely to the evacuated Jews, but must have come mainly from
the clearing of all the ghettos in the Warthegau. As of 23 March 1942,
all the property of the deported Jews became the property of the ghetto
administration:
According to the directive of 23 March 1942 by the governor,
all valuables such as money, foreign currencies, household goods,
merchandise, which are the property of resettled Jews, become the
property of the ghetto administration in Litzmannstadt.

Among these goods were also “fabrics, leather and other raw materials
of all types" (Textilien, Leder und sonstige Rohmaterialen aller Art;
Eisenbach 1946, p. 209). It is clear that almost 2,300 tons of clothing
could not be stored in the so-called “palace” or “castle” of Chemno.136
Hence they had to be stored in storage barracks in the camp. And this
certainly was the camp’s secondary function.
But the Chemno camp’s main function must be considered in relation
to the National Socialist policy of deporting the Jews to the east as
I have outlined in Chapter 1, including the letter from Himmler to Grei-
135 NO-1257, “Aufstellung über von den Lagern Lublin und Auschwitz auf Anordnung des
SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamts abgelieferten Mengen an Textil-Altmaterial,” 6
February 1943.
136 In the Polish drawing of this area (see document 16) no. 11 stands for “Piles of clothing
1941-1943 (15×5×4), and in the years 1944-1945 two sorting barracks and a clothes disinfestation
truck.” The volume of the dimensions given is 300 cubic meters, but 340
railway cars full of clothing corresponds to more than 21,000 cubic meters.
142 CARLO MATTOGNO, CHEMNO
ser of 18 September 1941. In this letter, as we have seen, Hitler ordered the transfer of Jews from the Reich proper and the Protectorate to ód
as a provisional stage of their subsequent deportation to the eastern territories.
In this context Chemno was therefore a transit camp for the
ghetto. The choice of a village west of ód is explained by the need to
reconcile the demands of confidentiality and logistics: Chemno is located
near the major railway line Pozna-Warsaw-Minsk and in a relatively
quiet area.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:50 pm)

Ya I read that chapter of 'Chelmno' and there are plenty of hints at where the Jews of Lodz might have been sent to...

....but still can't help feeling there's not much, well, nothing really, about specifically....Jews who had been to Chelmno and who had transited through it.

All we really have is 3 extremely dubious escapee witnesses who all say it was a death camp. (but who magically survived it!)
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:59 pm)

That's a lot less than the numbers of survivors from the other camps. ANd one of those three didn't survive the war, that we know of. The number is similarly small for Belzec, which is why I think it's important to focus on these two camps. The survivors from other camps make the points for us. Such miniscule numbers in the other cases makes the case against us, at least as far as that part of the arugment is concerned.


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