Transits through Chelmno

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Armor105
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Armor105 » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:16 pm)

Rankweil wrote:It might be helpful to establish a timeline.

We know Jews were deported to camps in 1942 and 1943 and we know that they were gone by the time the Russians arrived at the camps. Focusing on Chelmno, that gives us between summer of 1944 (when Jews from Lodz were transited through there) and March 1945 (by which time the Russians took the Warthegau).

Knowing precisely where the front was at that time could also help explain where, ultimately, those Jews ended up. The Germans could send them as far as western Russia in 1942 but only as far as further east in Poland by late 1944. Do we know whether the ultimate destination changed from time to time?


Hannover, very helpfully, reproduced chapter 15 of Mattogno's 'Chelmo' which discusses ultimate destinations of Lodz Jews somewhat. I'll summarise the useful quotations:

“Subsequently rumors had it that the Jews would be transferred from Lodz to the reclamation areas of the Pripyat marshes and the Jewish agricultural colonies near Krivoi Rog, Ukraine.”

- Reitlinger, Gerald, La soluzione finale. Il tentativo di sterminio degli Ebrei d’Europa 1939-1945. Il Saggiatore, Milano, 1965. Page 115.

“Officially the purpose of this deportation is not revealed to the deportees, but in private the Germans have launched a different version: a center for the entire district will set up at Chemno, which will be one stage of the transfer into the region of Pinsk or to Galicia.”

- From Report entitled “Masowe egzekucje ydów w pow. Kolskim” (Mass Execution of Jews in the Kolo District) of 25 March 1942. Maria Tyszkowa 1992b, p. 52. The report was published in 1943 in: Apenszlak 1943, pp. 115-118.

“In the second half of November 1941 the news spread in the cities of the Kolo district (Warthbrücken district) that the entire Jewish population of this area had to be transferred to the region of Pinsk or to eastern Galicia.”

- Sakowska, Ruta, Die zweite Etappe ist der Tod. NS-Ausrottungspolitik gegen die polnischen Juden gesehen mit den Augen der Opfer. Edition Entrich, Berlin, 1993.

“In the [Lodz] ghetto the word goes around persistently that the first two transports of evacuees were directed to occupied France, the other in Bessarabia.”

- 'Chronicle of the Lodz ghetto' bulletin no. 24 of 1-3 May 1942.

“Lodz was more or less cut off from the outside world. There was no direct contact but it had been learned that ‘unproductive elements’ had been deported from Lodz to Minsk, Kovno and Riga.”

- Zionist delegate Meleh “Noi” Neustadt, in two long reports of 25 and 27 May 1942 addressed to Palestinian Jewish institutions as quoted in Laqueur, Walter, The Terrible Secret, Penguin Books, New York, 1982.
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:39 pm)

Rankweil wrote:I think trying to argue the revisionist version of events like lawyers is a loosing game. History isn't a courtroom even if it should be.'

I've also seen the mass graves debate and I find it equally troubling with regard to Belzec and Chelmno. Again, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Sobibor haven't coughed up any remains of which I'm aware, so I don't have a problem debating this particular aspect of the holocaust with people. But there have been archeaological digs at Belzec and Chelmno and there are clearly bodies in the ground. Saying they're not there doesn't help our position at all.

Instead, it would be helpful if we could establish whose bodies they are. They're clearly not the Jews who were deproted there, so we have to offer a plausible alternate solution. It's likely that these are NKVD gravesites or maybe even older gravesites then that. That's part of what we need to establish. In the case of Chelmno, at least there were buildings there beforehand, which helps make our cases that the graves had been there for some time. I know less about Belzec on this particular issue.

Again, the position I'm taking isn't that Chelmno (and Belzec) were death camps. My position is that they were transit camps but that our case for them as transit camps is comparatively weaker than it is with other camps. That's all, nothing more or less.

A losing game? Revisionism is alive and growing because of it's insistence on science and rational thought. Not chasing illogical cul-de-sacs.
What digs are you referring too?
How many bodies are claimed at these "digs"?
Can we see the actual excavations? Or are they simply alleged?
And yes, I will say that the mass graves as alleged are not there and you nor anyone else can show me otherwise.
Of course, with outbound railway documents missing and the fact that Chelmno was merely a stopping point, there is indeed not much documentation. Other than the missing outbound records, why should there be?

You can chase an illogical mirage, I'll stick with blowing up the Chelmno 'extermination' nonsense.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:49 pm)

There's an article on excavations here http://www.academia.edu/1072734/Excavat ... on_Centres

Google is your friend.

Starting on page 19, the authors discuss an excavation of mass graves in the Rzuchow Forest. I quote: "The graves vary in length between 62 and 254 metres, and in width between 3 and 10 metres. Depths of 3-4 metres are recorded only for two mass graves,2 and 5. They were lled with grey soil, burnt waste and ground human bones. "

Here's another problem for us: The belongings of the people in those graves indicated the people were Jewish.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:50 pm)

Hannover, you just don't get it, do you? We also believe in blowing up the extermination thesis. We just believe in doing it throroughly, not lazily and using bad logic.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:55 pm)

Rankweil, please do stop projecting.

So where are the bodies from this claimed excavation that you linked to? I see no actual dig at all. I see a lot of laughable backyard junk, but not a single corpse. Is that the best you got? Pretty funny stuff, Rankweil.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Moderator » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:01 pm)

Gents, stay on topic.
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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:08 pm)

Muhelenkampf posted the whole Chelmno excavation report here http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... MuU33Pjk7R

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:35 pm)

OK, looked at it. Again, just a lot of trinkets, but no bodies. Their own feeble attempt blows up in their face, again.

Good thread here:
'Chelmno book released'
viewtopic.php?t=6754

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:07 pm)

I know relatively little of Chelmno, but these are my impressions of this topic.

1. There is very little available documentation on Chelmno. This is a double edged sword. It works against whichever side assumes the burden of proof. Therefore discussions of Chemno will likely be reduced to the question of German policy and the question of physical evidence.

2. The number of 150,000 transited to Chelmno is not backed up by any German documents, aside from the figure of 145,301 sent "through the camps [plural!] of the Warthegau" according to the Korherr report. I do not think there are inbound train records to Chelmno accounting for 150,000 arrivals - can anyone correct me on this?

3. Unlike Rankwell, I do not see the excavations at Chelmno and Belzec as weakening the revisionist position with regard to those camps relative to Sobibor and Treblinka. A non-zero finding of human remains is to be expected. It is something like the situation concerning cyanide measurements at Auschwitz: quantitative rather than qualitative analysis must prevail. It's a very bad logic to proceed from the fact that "cyanide was found" in the Auschwitz crematories to the claim that they were used for mass homicidal gassing. It is similarly bad logic to proceed from limited findings of human remain to extermination at Belzec or Chelmno.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Rankweil » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:30 pm)

Please undestand that I am not claiming the bodies' mere presence is problematic for us. I'm saying the lack of our own explanation for their presence is.

Not sure the eaxct source but the #s for CHelmno deportations are here

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/ch ... ations.htm

The 150K figure is for Lodz only IIRC.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Haldan » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:28 pm)

Rankweil wrote:I think trying to argue the revisionist version of events like lawyers is a loosing game. History isn't a courtroom even if it should be.'


This all depend on who you're talking with. For example, I may talk like any other bloke on the street if the person is somebody like "Joanna Jørgensen", but with somebody like Andy Mathis, that's not possible. You've got to assume the role of an prosecutor. "Did Emerich Roth survive five 'extermination camps' or did he not", stuff like that, and so forth. Follow up. Yeah, you get my drift. :bounce:

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:28 pm)

Rankweil wrote:Please undestand that I am not claiming the bodies' mere presence is problematic for us. I'm saying the lack of our own explanation for their presence is.


Natural mortality in the camp (or even on the transports) and executions offer such an explanation. Unless the investigation offers quantitative measures of the human remains that's all that can be said.

Life expectancy for Polish Jews was probably no more than 25,000 days, so we might expect six deaths per day in a population of 150,000 even in the best of times. In wartime, and under the conditions of deportation, the natural mortality would have been much higher, especially given the presence of epidemic diseases in the eastern territories. Adding in executions (of partisans, saboteurs, etc.), we really have no problem explaining the presence of human remains.

Have you read Mattogno's Chelmno, chapter 10 (specifically 10.3)?

Not sure the eaxct source but the #s for CHelmno deportations are here

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/ch ... ations.htm

The 150K figure is for Lodz only IIRC.


See Mattogno's chapter 11. In particular:

From a report dated 7 January 1946 by the Polish Judge W. Bednarz (quoted in Mattogno, Chelmno, p. 108)

There is no way of determining the number of those murdered in
Cheámno, neither on the basis of the camp’s reports nor based on
reports relating to Jewish rail transports, because the camp authori-
ties destroyed all documents, and all tickets were taken away during
the evacuation. Regarding direct transports to Cheámno the prelimi-
nary investigation had to restrict itself to testimonies.


These early investigations concluded that the number of victims was at least 340,000.

Continuing from Mattogno, p. 109:

During the penal trial against former members of the Cheámno
Sonderkommando, the Bonn Jury Court settled for an alleged minimum
death toll of 152,000, consisting of 145,000 victims during the camp’s
first phase and 7,000 during its second phase. The court based its as-
sumptions for the camp’s first operational phase on the figure given in
the so-called Korherr Report for Jews led “through the camps of the
Warthegau...145,301.” Korherr even appeared as a witness to confirm
this number (Rüter et al. 1979, pp. 285f.). The figures of the camp’s se-
cond phase are based on deportation lists compiled by the “Statistical
Department of the Oldest of Jews in the Ghetto of Litzmannstadt,” ac-
cording to which 7,176 Jews were deported from the ghetto in summer
1944, although with no destination given (ibid., p. 286). Hence the court
assumed a minimum death toll of 145,000 for the first and 7,100 or
7,000 for the second phase (ibid., pp. 235, 241, 263, 286).


From Mattogno's chapter 12:

lodz.png


So the source for Lodz comes from the ghetto itself, not from German documents. It isn't even certain that these transports really went to Chelmno (recall that Korherr spoke of camps plural) or that if they did go there that they unloaded their passengers.

table.png


From Mattogno's chapter 17, Conclusions

The camp’s claimed death toll number is not based on any docu-
mentation. It was set to 1,300,000 by the Commission of Inquiry into
the German Crimes in Poland, but later reduced to 340,000 by Judge
Bednarz. Polish historiography today assumes a figure of about 152,000
victims, which in practice coincides with the number of Jews who, ac-
cording to the Korherr Report, were led “through the camps of the
Warthegau... 145,301,” plus some 7,000 additional victims for the
camp’s claimed second extermination phase in 1944.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:07 am)

friedrichjansson wrote:So the source for Lodz comes from the ghetto itself, not from German documents.


Figures for Lodz are mentioned also in Gestapo reports quoted by Mattogno (p. 117):

"For this purpose a larger number
of Jews unable to work was evacuated from the ghetto and sent to
the Sonderkommando. 44,152 of the Polish Jews have been resettled
since 16 Jan. [19]42. Of the 19,848 Jews from the Old Reich, from
Austria and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia which were
admitted to the local ghetto in October 1941, 10,993 have been
evacuated, so that by now space for about 55,000 Jews has been
created in the ghetto.”

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby chim-pa » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:28 pm)

In aforementioned Gestapo report from Lodz, there are also other places mentioned that were cleared of the Jews. Part that Mattogno does not quote goes like this in German:

Im Anschluss daran wurde nun dazu übergegangen, die Landkreise zu bereinigen. Es wurden zunächst aus dem Kreise Lentschütz rund 9 000 Juden evakuiert. Es verblieben nur 1 000 in Ozorkow, die dort dringend zur Durchführung von Wehrmachtsaufträgen benötigt werden. Der Kreis Lentschütz ist somit grundsätzlich als judenfrei anzusehen.

Im weiteren Verlauf der Bereinigung der Landkreise wurde nunmehr der Landkreis Litzmannstadt in Angriff genommen. In diesem Kreise befanden sich Juden nur noch in Löwenstadt und Strickau. Aus Zweckmässigkeitsgründen wurden zunächst sämtliche Juden aus Strickau nach Löwenstadt umgesiedelt. Von den nun im Ghetto Löwenstadt befindlichen Juden, etwa 6 000, wurden rund 3 000 als nichtarbeitsfähige evakuiert, während der Rest, der aus Facharbeitern besteht, ins hiesige Ghetto überführt und bereits zur Arbeit angesetzt wurde. Als vorläufiger Abschluss der Bereinigung der Landkreise wurde die Stadt Pabianice vom Juden gesäubert. Es wurden hier rund 3 200 Juden evakuiert, der Rest von 4 000 Juden in das hiesige Ghetto überführt.

Da den Juden des Bezirks natürlicherweise die Aussiedlung bekannt geworden war, versuchten sie, durch Verschiebungen von Vermögenswerten, Flucht in das Generalgouvernement und überhaupt weitestgehende Nichtbefolgung der behördlichen Anordnungen die Aussiedlung zu stören.


Couple of interesting points here. First of all, only in one case destination of "umsiedlung" is mentioned, and here it is between two towns, but the cases of "evacuation" seem to be different matter. Nowhere it is said where those who are unable to work are to be sent, except that in the begin of report we are told they are sent to the Sonderkommando. Also is mentioned that Jews know already about these evacuations, and try to avoid them by all means possible.

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Re: Transits through Chelmno

Postby Hannover » 6 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:51 pm)

So then chim-pa, you buy the extermination at Chelmno story. And if you are trying to make the case that 150,000 Jews were not resettled, the question remains, where are the 150,000 alleged corpses at Chelmno?

It always comes down to basics.

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