How much do governments actually know?

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Creox
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How much do governments actually know?

Postby Creox » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:17 pm)

Wasn't quite sure where to put this and probably has been covered before but I'm very interested in your thoughts on the matter.

I have been watching some interesting videos with Zundel and Irving the last couple of days. They both have been very illuminating and has led me to the thought that most if not all governments involved in post ww2 mop up, carving up of territory etc (USSR, US, UK et al) were completely aware of the reality of situation as it pertains to the extermination myth. How could they not know? If we, as revisionists, outside of the box can come up with such compelling evidence these countries must have been completely aware. When the troops came to Buchenwald the officers and officials had to have known what this was and wasn't.

Now, I realize there was a huge propaganda operation involved right after the war to paint the NAZI party as monsters but was it all just a mirage due to politics or did many believe some of the stories? Intelligence must have known it was all a game and did nothing after the story became too big to stop. Are the allies just as complicit as the Israeli governments in keeping this under wraps for so long? And what of the German governments? How could they not know the truth and what does that say for the events that have taken place in Germany since the war with respect to reparations, culture etc.

Please excuse the rambling style of my post but I'm just getting thoughts down as I'm thinking them.

Cheers

John

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:30 pm)

Not sure what exactly you are asking.
Do you want to know, if government officials of today do not know the truth or what is it precisely?

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Creox » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:41 pm)

Hektor wrote:Not sure what exactly you are asking.
Do you want to know, if government officials of today do not know the truth or what is it precisely?



I knew I was rambling LOL. :)

In a nutshell I think the involved governments at the end of the war must have known the truth about the holocaust. Not the whole state but intelligence and upper officials must have known that the conventional story was a ruse. I also speculate that the German governments following the war must know on some level that the reparations and mass guilt foisted on them is built on lies. If this is so then...well.

I know about the planned propaganda following the war, such as the shrunken heads, skin lampshades etc and are pretty much dismissed by any thinking person now but the story of the planned exterminations still prevail mostly due to the actions of the victors of that war. Surely they must still be fully aware of the truth of the matter at some level.

Does this make more sense?

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:23 pm)

Creox wrote:...
In a nutshell I think the involved governments at the end of the war must have known the truth about the holocaust. Not the whole state but intelligence and upper officials must have known that the conventional story was a ruse. I also speculate that the German governments following the war must know on some level that the reparations and mass guilt foisted on them is built on lies. If this is so then...well.

I know about the planned propaganda following the war, such as the shrunken heads, skin lampshades etc and are pretty much dismissed by any thinking person now but the story of the planned exterminations still prevail mostly due to the actions of the victors of that war. Surely they must still be fully aware of the truth of the matter at some level.
...

You mean certain officials at some levels would have known that this was all a hoax? I.e. top intelligence officials that deal with spying and gathering information on what is REALLY happening?

Good Question. The Soviet Regime would be quite hermetic on this. But at least almost everyone there was knowing that they were lying on almost everything.
If the Holocaust was true. This certainly would have been known to the intelligence agencies that worked with what happened in occupied Europe at least by 1943, surely in 1944 and 1945. Such reports must have been somewhere. Sure they would reflect deportations and internment, but they would have had more details too on killing. Did anyone of them state that i.e. Auschwitz was a killing factory employing homicidal gas chambers?

As for after the war Adenauer had to say something interesting on "reparations" meaning payments to Jews:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CaaQywraXw

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:50 pm)

Of course Governments knew (and know) it's all a huge farce on their side. No the slightest doubt about that!

- Why other did the Soviets (Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen) and Americans (Dachau) build false 'gas chambers' after the War?
- Why other wasn't Rudolf Hess released from prison but isolated until his death for more than 40 years, not allowed to speak to anybody?
- Why other did the Allies in a hurry took ALL of German documents into their own (secret) archives, held behind closed doors and only selectively published/destroyed what they judge important?
- Why other were documents held behind closed doors until 2018 (probably not to publish those forever)?
- Why other did Eisenhower, Churchill and De Gaulle not mention "gas chambers"in their Memoires? Not only because they knew those weren't there, but they also knew (suppose) this would probably made known by publication of documents after their death.
Why other is the International Red Cross since 1947 forbidden to publish statistical information about the number of Jews died in German Concentration camps?
- Why other etc., etc., etc.

Of course our governments know it was (and is still) one big psyop project, not in the least in favor of Israel and Zionism.

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Louis XVI » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:48 pm)

I have never worked for a government, let alone as part of one, but we all know they're not just one round table, but comprise many specialized institutions, and are compartmentalized. As Lohengrin said, some parts of them definitely knew because they had people planting evidence in the military, or maybe went along with manipulations done by the military …

And in Arthur Butz' great book on the Hoax, we can see that American government officials did not endorse atrocity propaganda spread about the camps during the war although that kind of horror stories, if taken seriously, would have given reason to the sharpest form of condemnation of the perpetrators; and one is led to conclude that this failure to endorse the atrocity propaganda was because they knew it was just propaganda.

As for today's governments, there are not many who don't go along with the status quo of the Hoax As Truth, with the notable and positive exception of the Iranian government. All victor powers have a lot of prestige to lose, and a lot of blame and shame to fall on them.

As for the German governments in particular, I don't know whether there's any institution left that has an interest in Truth … My feeling is they don't want to know anything about it, they simply accept this as a fundamental political reality which is part of their daily political business, and one where no mistake is forgiven, as slight a mistake it may be: it would mean the end of their career, they would have to resign or would be ousted by media pressure. I mean, look at them. They're just doing a job, following a career. The ones who do have objectives other than their career, like Schäuble, have internationalist objectives (EUSSR). Maybe this is their oblique way out: to dissolve nation states in a bureaucratic Europe in order to deemphasize National History. (At least that's many people's interpretation in conservative circles, not just mine.)

Nice Adenauer video clip linked above. Had he known the way the Hoax was to be used, I think he would have done something to counter it. Although he was an opponent of NS, I find it unimaginable that he would not have had people setting him straight about the Hoax ongoings. He must have known. And he probably wasn't totally corrupt. Probably just trying to manage things for the time being. I wasn't there back then, but clearly the priority was to get the country going again, and not to set the record straight on the Hoax. So, to resume the conservative point of view on that time (which I think I subscribe to), while people were building up the country, a new generation was raised to take the Hoax seriously, and eventually that brought about new governments, think Willy Brandt, and at that point even asking whether he knew or not is totally besides the point … :drunken: … so much the story was part of his personal triumph. :drunken:
Auf hohlen Köpfen ist gut trommeln. Und je hohler ein Kopf, desto voller das Echo.
-- Karlheinz Deschner

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Creox » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:27 pm)

Louis

a new generation was raised to take the Hoax seriously, and eventually that brought about new governments, think Willy Brandt, and at that point even asking whether he knew or not is totally besides the point


I remember reading that the real effort to "sell" the holocaust did not begin until twenty or twenty five years after the war. Not much is read before that period but certainly gained momentum since then...

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:26 am)

Eisenhower knew. He knew his own Psyche Warfare Department was creating fake atrocity evidence at Buchenwald. He turned around and invited American Congressman and newspaper editors to see it. So the top guy knew, and some Psych Warfare people knew. A lot of them were Jewish like William Paley of CBS. But beyond that they were lying to the American government. Secret projects (psych warfare at Buchenwald) create problems in a free society.

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:48 am)

I think this is a fascinating question and there are no simple answers.

The "Holocaust" wasn't the issue in the immediate post-war period. The issue was the pacification of Germany and that went via a portrayal of unique German evil. Germany (according to perception at the time) had twice tried to take over Europe and had to be crushed. The SykeWar operation which included Buchenwald was part of this and the discovery of the horrendous conditions in Belsen appeared to confirm it. Remember that no one was asking too many questions at this time and everybody, yes everybody, believed what they wanted to believe and what fitted the narrative. The heart of the matter is that no one really cared what was true and what wasn't. But the Jews were not central all this. At Nuremberg, relatively little had to do with the Jews. Morgenthau, the War Refugee Board and the World Jewish Council had their agenda and provided the 6 million figure.

I think those at the very top knew that much of what they were preaching was propaganda, but in the atmosphere that prevailed no one particularly cared what was true and what wasn't. Churchill claimed in Parliament that they did not know until the last minute what was happening (despite having circulated the stories during the war), yet, as is well known to people here, Churchill, Eisenhower and de Gaulle all failed to mention the extermination of the Jews in their post-war writings and de Gaulle continued to hold strongly anti-Jewish views ("...ce peuple sur de lui-meme et dominateur..."). My generation was brought up on war stories, but none of them mentioned the Jews. Whilst the war was ever-present, the Germans were either caricatures shouting "Donner und Blitzen" or normal people like us. I read Reach for the Sky, but immediately after it I read I Flew for the Fuehrer. We built models of Spitfires and Hurricanes, but we were just as interested in Me 109s.

The emergence of Russia as the new enemy suddenly changed everything and the Germans became our allies. Alongside the geographical Iron Curtain was a historical one. Everything earlier became a part of remote history. We heard and accepted that the Nazis had murdered 6 million Jews, but that was different Germans in a different epoch.

The top Soviet brass obviously knew what they were doing, but they had no pretence to be democratic or honest: their entire regime was built on brutality and lies. The West went along with their allegations, even keeping quiet about, though not actually confirming, alleged German responsibility for Katyn.

The Holocaust as we know it today began to emerge in the late 70s, probably as a reaction to Butz and Faurisson, and as a result of the 67 and 73 wars, the US embrace of Israel and the shift of European opinion from universal unquestioning acceptance of Israel to a much more divided view. It's proponents certainly believe what they are preaching, since pretty much the entire world does. (Everyone here was once a Believer, so we all know internally how it works.) No one will convince me that Wiesel and Lipstadt are closet Revisionists!

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:49 am)

Lohengrin wrote:Of course Governments knew (and know) it's all a huge farce on their side. No the slightest doubt about that!

- Why other did the Soviets (Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen) and Americans (Dachau) build false 'gas chambers' after the War?
- Why other wasn't Rudolf Hess released from prison but isolated until his death for more than 40 years, not allowed to speak to anybody?
- Why other did the Allies in a hurry took ALL of German documents into their own (secret) archives, held behind closed doors and only selectively published/destroyed what they judge important?
- Why other were documents held behind closed doors until 2018 (probably not to publish those forever)?
- Why other did Eisenhower, Churchill and De Gaulle not mention "gas chambers"in their Memoires? Not only because they knew those weren't there, but they also knew (suppose) this would probably made known by publication of documents after their death.
Why other is the International Red Cross since 1947 forbidden to publish statistical information about the number of Jews died in German Concentration camps?
....
What is the evidence for the last underlined statement? I phoned Arolsen years ago and they confirmed a mortality number in the hundred thousands. They however also mentioned that this had been "abuses" by evil Revisionists :alien: .
But overall I think you are right. At least SOME government officials knew for sure that this was a hoax. Others may just have swim together with this narrative as this seems to be the confirmed one.

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Lysander_Spooner » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:47 pm)

Growing up the '50's and 60's I do not recall much promotion of the 6-million-and-gas-chamber claim. I remember an episode of The Twilight Zone set in a KZ where the former commandant comes back and is confronted by a former inmate. No claims of extermination were made. They former inmate just complained about having to work as a slave laborer, basically. Shows like Combat and Hogan's Heroes portrayed the Germans as opponents but not evil. Also consider the complete lack of Hollywood movies in the 1945 to mid-sixties time-frame about 6 million and gas chambers. The famous post-war movie, Gentleman's Agreement (1947?), portrayed the ex-Nazi antagonist as a ruthless exploiter of powerless people but did not make any claim of mass killings. To me, the most telling of all is the "This is Your Life" episode from 1953 that featured the jewish woman who'd been interned in five or six camps, doing labor, and had come to the US after the war. She never said a word about 6 million and gas chambers, but she had a friend who came on and made an awkward and nervous assertion otherwise. I started a thread about this viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7199

["This is Your Life" YouTube video added by Moderator, 12/18/12]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3F9Rc6i_-w[/youtube]

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Re: How much do governments actually know?

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:46 pm)

Hektor: "What is the evidence for the last underlined statement? I phoned Arolsen years ago and they confirmed a mortality number in the hundred thousands."


The evidence is a sworn statement of ITS-director Charles Biedermann during the Zündel Trial, Febr. 3rd 1988: “I have strict instructions not to make statistics, therefore all statistics showwed, are from other sources than ours."


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