Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 10 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:07 pm)

Hannover wrote:
So maybe it's time to get past the propaganda and think about what the National Socialists were really trying to achieve. Race consciousness and above-replacement fertility as the foundation for maintaining a healthy, self-sustaining, demographically stable and culturally harmonious Germany.

Can't have that now, can we?

Well, there are those who can have that.

Race consciousness and above-replacement fertility as the foundation for maintaining a healthy, self-sustaining, demographically stable and culturally harmonious Israel ... and only Israel.

Well, the self-sustaining bit certainly doesn't apply to that. But I digress.
...
Now Kladderdatsch, just clear your mind to a blank slate for a while. This taken on it's own is quite reasonable, isn't it? In fact anything else is pretty stupid, because it would be careless, declining, unhealthy, impoverishing, unstable and disharmonious. Hence a problem for a country in part and finally as a whole. Can we see why certain groups have a vested interest into portraying National Socialism as evil as possible and why they won't have any debate on any aspects of it without having first contaminated the air with the hateful imagery of remakes of anti-German war propaganda?

Just bending it back to the forum subject here!

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 6 years 10 months ago (Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:58 am)

I spent several hours yesterday translating this, and now it turns out that a translation of the full chapter is available online after all. (The text is one section of one chapter, "SS-Rassenkunde und Richtlinien zur Gattenwahl ," excerpted from a longer book entitled Glauben und Kampfen. A search using the chapter title--which I did yesterday--doesn't turn up the translation, but one using the book title--which I did just now--does. GIYF . . . it just likes messing with your head sometimes :lol: .)

Anyway, the material is quite interesting for the perspective it gives on the whole "blonde, blue-eyed Nazi" thing. I've highlighted the parts I find most illuminating below, but the tl;dr version is this:

Auch hier aber gilt die Erkenntnis: Entscheidender als die Haarfarbe ist der Charakter des Menschen. Der einzelne gehört im wesentlichen zu der Rasse, zu deren Tugenden er sich durch die Tat bekennt.

But here too the verdict stands: it is the character of the man, and not the color of his hair, which is decisive. The individual belongs, in essence, to the race whose virtues he bears witness to by his deeds.


The National Socialists did indeed hold up the Nordic spirit and the Nordic race as their ideal. But they also recognized that no more than 50% or so of the Reich's people were ever clearly of the "Nordic racial type" (i.e., in outward appearance). This was no great contradiction in their view, however, since they also observed that "Every German has some Nordic blood in his or her veins." And more importantly, they also knew--and openly declared--that what counted in the end was not hair color but character: a man belongs to the race "whose virtues he bears witness to by his deeds." So much for the inflexible racism of the SS.

Race is important, if only because of its prominent role in determining character. But character is what counts. SS racial policy was about building a future for Germany in which the character of its people was preserved and allowed to flourish. Physical appearance is a marker of race; and race, understood as shared genetic heritage, is a marker of character-potential. But race per se was not an end in itself for the Third Reich; the end in view was the future character of the German Folk. And as texts like "Rassenkunde und Richtlinien" make clear, there was always far more to that than the old propaganda image of the blond, blue-eyed Nazi.

From "SS-Rassenkunde und Richtlinien zur Gattenwahl":

Das deutsche Volk und die nordische Rasse

Trotz der oft starken Vermischung und des Ineinandergreifens der Rassen in den einzelnen Gauen des Reiches finden wir in den verschiedenen Teilen Deutschlands einzelne Rassen starker ausgeprägt.

Es gibt Gebiete, in denen hoher Wuchs, schmales Gesicht und helle Farben von Haar, Augen und Haut vorherrschen (körperliches Erscheinungsbild der nordischen Rasse). Dem nordischen Menschen nahe verwandt, vielleicht nur als ein "Schlag" desselben bezeichnet, doch größer, breiter und wuchtiger wirkend, ist der fälische Mensch.

In manchen Gebieten des Reiches finden wir hingegen grosse, kurzköpfige Menschen mit schmalem Gesicht, größer Nase, braunen Augen und schwarzem Haar (körperliches Erscheinungsbild der dinarischen Rasse).

Oder es finden sich in einzelnen Teilen kleine, schlanke und bewegliche Menschen mit dunkler Augen- und Haarfarbe (Erscheinungsbild der westischen Rasse).

In wieder anderen Landstrichen überwiegen die Merkmale: mittelgroß, untersetzter Körper, kurzer Kopf, breites Gesicht mit hervortretenden Backenknochen, blondes Haar und helle Augen (körperliches Erscheinungsbild der ostbaltischen Rasse).

Schließlich fallen in gewissen Teilen des Reiches gedrungene, rundköpfige Menschen mit breiten Gesichtern, braunen Augen, braunem bis schwarzem Haar und dunkler Hautfarbe auf
(körperliches Erschemungsbild der ostischen Rasse).

In allen Gauen des Reiches, ob im Norden oder im Süden, im Westen oder Osten, ist die nordische Rasse mehr oder weniger stark vertreten. Viele Menschen in unserem Volke können nicht restlos der einen oder anderen Rasse zugeordnet werden. In jedem Volke finden sich neben erscheinungsbildlich reinrassig aussehenden Vertretern die einzelnen Rassen in starker oder schwacher vermischter Form.

Im deutschen Volke überwiegt das nordische Erbgut. Die nordische Rasse ist nicht nur die vorherrschende Rasse, sondern blutsmäßig in fast allen deutschen Menschen vorhanden. "Blut und Boden" sind kein leerer Begriff, sondern unser Schicksal. Damit ist auch das Zuchtziel des deutschen Volkes gegeben. Es vollzieht sich in der Verwirklichung des Lebensgesetzes seiner prägenden Rasse.

Der Anteil des nordischen Blutes beträgt in der Erbmasse des deutschen Volkes rund 50%. Darüber hinaus lehrt uns die Familienkunde: Jeder Deutsche birgt nordisches Blut in sich. So ist das deutsche Volk im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes eine Blutsgemeinschaft.
Die Geschichte auf rassenkundlicher Grundlage hat längst bewiesen, daß die nordische Rasse einen viel stärkeren Anteil an hervorragenden Menschen stellt als andere Rassen. Die nordische Rasse ist vor allem Trägerin der hohen Begabung des deutschen Volkes. Großtaten auf allen Gebieten haben sie zur Führerrasse der Menschheit gemacht. Es gibt keine andere Menschenrasse, die so viele hervorragende geistige Führer, HeerFührer und Staatsmänner hervorgebracht hatte. In kühnem Zugriff eroberte der nordische Mensch weite Gebiete, gründete Staaten und schuf Kulturen. Bereits um das Jahr 1000 landeten Wikinger in Amerika. Die Erschließung ganzer Erdteile wurde vom nordischen Geist aus geleitet.

Eine der hervorstechendsten Eigenschaften der Nordrasse ist die Selbstbeherrschung. Nordische Kühnheit ist die Grundlage der kriegerischen Leistungen, Gewissenhaftigkeit und Willenskraft, gepaart mit Zuverlässigkeit, starken den Unabhängigkeitstrieb gewaltig. Diese Eigenschaften verhindern allerdings das Einfühlungsvermögen, und die Gefahr beim nordischen Menschen, sich zu verlieren, sich zu verschwenden, ist größ.
Der nordische Mensch besitzt eine größe Vorliebe für Sport und Wettkampf, er steht dort, wo es gilt, etwas zu wagen. Daher ist er auch häufiger als andere Menschen gerade in jenen Berufen zu finden, die mit Gefahren verbunden sind. Auch hier aber gilt die Erkenntnis: Entscheidender als die Haarfarbe ist der Charakter des Menschen. Der einzelne gehört im wesentlichen zu der Rasse, zu deren Tugenden er sich durch die Tat bekennt.

Wenn man die einzelnen Länder Europas auf ihre rassische zusammensetzung prüft, fällt einem zuerst auf, daß in fast allen Staaten dieselben Rassen vertreten sind. Wir finden die nordische Rasse außer in Deutschland, den skandinavischen Ländern, England und Holland auch in Rußland, Italien, Frankreich, Spanien usw. vertreten. Wir finden aber auch z.B. ostische Menschen in den verschiedenen europäischen Ländern. Darauf kommt es schließlich bei der rassischen Gesamtbeurteilung eines Volkes nicht an. Es geht vielmehr um den stärkemäßigen Anteil der einzelnen Rassen in dem betreffenden Volke. Und da steht fest: schon sein zahlenmäßig marschiert das Reich in bezug auf den nordischen Anteil allen anderen Völkern weit voraus.

Mit natürlichem Recht kann Deutschland die Führung der nordischgermanisch bestimmten Völker für sich beanspruchen.


The German Nation (Volk) and the Nordic Race

Despite the often strong mixing and interlinking of races in the individual districts of the Reich, we find certain races more strongly pronounced in various parts of Germany.

There are areas, for example, in which tall stature, narrow face, and light coloring of hair, eyes and skin predominate (physical appearance of the Nordic race). Closely related to the Nordic Man, perhaps even a "breed" thereof, though taller, broader and more heavily built, is the Westphalian Man.

On the other hand, in many areas of the Reich we find large, short-headed people with narrow faces, large noses, brown eyes and black hair (physical appearance of the Dinaric [Mediterranean] race).

Or again, in certain parts, one finds small, slender, lively people with dark-colored eyes and hair (appearance of the Western race).

In still other regions, these features predominate: middling height, stocky body, short head, broad face with prominent cheekbones, blonde hair and light-colored eyes (physical appearance of the East Baltic race).

Finally, in certain parts of the Reich [one finds] squat, round-headed people with broad faces, brown eyes, brown-to-black hair and dark skin color (physical appearance of the Eastern race).

In all the districts of the Reich, whether in the north or in the south, in the west or the east, the Nordic race is more or less strongly represented. Nonetheless, many people in our nation cannot be wholly assigned to one race or another. Along with exemplars that are outwardly pure-raced in appearance, the individual races can be found, in any nation, in more or less strongly mixed form.

In the German Folk, the Nordic type predominates. The Nordic is not only the most prevalent race per se, but is also present in some measure in the blood of practically all Germans. "Blood and Soil" is thus no empty phrase, but rather our destiny. And thereby, too, the destination of the German Folk's development is revealed: to find its fulfillment in the realization of the life principle of its most characteristic race.


The portion of Nordic blood in the genetic inheritance of the German Folk amounts to about 50 percent. More importantly, the study of genealogy informs us: Every German has some Nordic blood in his or her veins. Thus, the German Folk is in the truest sense of the word a community of blood. The study of history along racial lines has long since shown that the Nordic race produces a much larger share of outstanding individuals than other races. The Nordic race is above all the bearer of the highest gifts of the German Folk. Great accomplishments in every field have made it the leading race of humanity. There is no other race that has brought forth so many outstanding spiritual and military leaders and statesmen. With bold decisiveness, Nordic Man has seized great territories, founded cities, and created cultures. Already by the year 1000 the Vikings had landed in America. The development of whole continents has been guided by the Nordic spirit.

One of the most prominent characteristics of the Nordic race is self-mastery. Nordic boldness is the basis of its military achievements; conscientiousness and strength of will, together with trustworthiness, strengthen enormously its drive for independence. These characteristics hinder, however, the capacity for fellow feeling, and the danger among Nordic peoples of losing themselves and wasting their potential is great.
The Nordic Man has a great passion for sport and competition, and he stands there, always, where something is to be ventured. And so also he is found, more often than other men, in precisely those callings which are bound up with danger. But here too the verdict stands: it is the character of the man, and not the color of his hair, which is decisive. The individual belongs, in essence, to the race whose virtues he bears witness to by his deeds.

When one examines the various lands of Europe according to their racial make-up, it quickly becomes apparent that in almost every country the same races are represented. Apart from in Germany, we find the Nordic race represented in the Scandinavian lands, in England and Holland, and also in Russia, Italy, France, Spain and so on. And we also find, for example, Eastern people in the various European lands. Ultimately, however, one cannot arrive, on the basis of this apparent diversity alone, at an overall racial assessment of any given nation. It is, rather, much more a matter of the proportional strength of the individual races in said nation. And this much is certain: even in just numbers alone the Reich exceeds by far all other nations as regards the Nordic share of its population.

By natural right , then, Germany can indeed claim for itself the leadership of the distinctly Nordic-Germanic nations.


Full text in German . . . http://nsl-archiv.com/Buecher/Bis-1945/ ... ext%29.pdf

and English . . . http://www.whitehonor.com/ssracetheory.pdf



p.s. Hektor . . . a "blank slate"? More like a sack of hay in my case, I'm afraid :lol: .
Der grosse Kladderadatsch war da.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Haldan » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:49 am)

Contrast this with American propaganda, the 'American Hero':

http://www.zazzle.com/vintage_american_ ... 7678012367

The Afro-American could be used in war - but at home he must sit in the back of the bus and shine the shoes of his master... :|

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Hektor » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:04 pm)

Kladderadatsch wrote:...The National Socialists did indeed hold up the Nordic spirit and the Nordic race as their ideal. But they also recognized that no more than 50% or so of the Reich's people were ever clearly of the "Nordic racial type" (i.e., in outward appearance). This was no great contradiction in their view, however, since they also observed that "Every German has some Nordic blood in his or her veins." And more importantly, they also knew--and openly declared--that what counted in the end was not hair color but character: a man belongs to the race "whose virtues he bears witness to by his deeds." So much for the inflexible racism of the SS.....

It also got historical grounds that it is like that. The racial make-up of Germanic people is sometimes shown in their poetry:
Then a boy had Mother; she swathed him in silk,
and with water sprinkled him; called him Earl.
Light were his locks, and fair his cheeks,
flashing his eyes like a serpent's shone.
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/rig.html

Compare this to the serf class:
Great-grandmother bore a swarthy boy;
with water they sprinkled him, called him Thrall.
Forthwith he grew and well he throve,
bur tough were his hands with wrinkled skin,
with knuckles knotty and fingers thick;
his face was ugly, his back was humpy,
his heels were long.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:33 pm)

Haldan wrote:Contrast this with American propaganda, the 'American Hero':

http://www.zazzle.com/vintage_american_ ... 7678012367

The Afro-American could be used in war - but at home he must sit in the back of the bus and shine the shoes of his master... :|

-haldan

A point that should be regularly made. Of course Nazi Germany was racist, but so was the rest of the world at that time. Almost certainly more Blacks died in lynchings in the US in 1933-9 than Jews in pogroms in Germany.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Dresden » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:00 pm)

Kingfisher said:

"Almost certainly more Blacks died in lynchings in the US in 1933-9 than Jews in pogroms in Germany"

How many Jews died in pogroms in Germany?
Please cite reliable sources for your "information".

How many Blacks were lynched in the US from 1933-39?
Please cite sources(reliable or unreliable, it doesn't matter) for your information.

Since you say: "Almost certainly", I'm taking it for granted that you've done extensive research in this matter.

Thank you! :D
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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Moderator » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:21 pm)

Gents,
Back on topic, please.
M1
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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:02 pm)

What is wrong here ?
My question was about a hypothetical myth about National socialism being racist.

The world by then was essentially racist. Most people shared the apartheid-like concept of living together. Immigration was almost non existant anyway, except to the USA, where very harsh laws guaranteed the apartheid...
Eugenism was highly praised in the UK (Lord Balfour), in the USA and indeed later in Nazi Germany.

I don't see why revisionism should try to make nazi Germany a white sheep with some kind of hippie philosophy of livinng together...Black Red white , and yellow all together...
By 1935, every German citizen had to pass racial test, although certificate of aryanisation was sometime given to important personalities.
Is it a myth that Germany passed the strongest racial laws among european nations ?

Now the blond stuff, is propaganda to illustrate an ideal as only the aryan race was believed to have blond man. Of course you were not discriminate being a black haired proven pure German!

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:00 pm)

Balsamo wrote:What is wrong here ?
The world by then was essentially racist. Most people shared the apartheid-like concept of living together. Immigration was almost non existant anyway, except to the USA, where very harsh laws guaranteed the apartheid...
Eugenism was highly praised in the UK (Lord Balfour), in the USA and indeed later in Nazi Germany.

I don't see why revisionism should try to make nazi Germany a white sheep with some kind of hippie philosophy of livinng together...Black Red white , and yellow all together...


The terms "racist" and "apartheid" are doing all the work in your argument, which is otherwise vacuous. I would not presume to prescribe to all revisionists, whose political views vary, but I suspect that a large fraction of revisionists believe that the conventional rhetorical usage of these terms (as seen in your post) is empty and destructive propaganda. What is racism, what is apartheid, and why are they bad? Without a well grounded answer to these questions your rhetoric floats on air. Is Japan today an apartheid state, and do we need to force some wonderful third world immigration on the Japanese?

For my part, I would say that "multiculturalism" (which in practise means the targeted cultural and racial destruction of whites) is a world-historic disaster - a crime, in fact. I would add that while scientific racism and the eugenics movement were not free from mistakes in either theory or practise (but nor is any scientific movement in its youth), they possessed a more scientifically accurate and practically useful understanding of humanity than did their successors. Again, I think a substantial fraction of revisionists agree with me. This is not the forum on which to argue whether or not I am correct, but given that such beliefs are widely held here, just saying the words "racism" and "apartheid" is not an adequate basis for discussion.


Now the blond stuff, is propaganda to illustrate an ideal as only the aryan race was believed to have blond man.


Do you have any sources for the claim that this belief was generally held to be both true and important by race scientists of the time? Certainly there was a connection between aryans and blond hair, but your claim is rather stronger than that.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Mkk » 6 years 10 months ago (Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:55 am)

Balsalmo,

What is wrong here ?
My question was about a hypothetical myth about National socialism being racist.

Nobody here has said that National Socialism was not what would today be termed racist.

This thread asks the question: Did the National Socialists specifically consider people with blond hair/blue eyes to be superior to those without, even of they were German?
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:28 pm)

@friedrich

You misunderstood me. I am not using those concept of "Racism" or "appartheid" in the today sense...but as they existed and the meanings they had in those days.
Racism = the belief that some race are genetically superior to other.
Apartheid = a concept that says that is best for every communities to live on their own with the less contact possible with the others.
That is exactly what is behind the quotes attributed to Gandhi...in this case, he wanted the indian community to be able to live their own destiny closer to the white people status, and not to be assimilated to the Black Africans. That fits well with the conception of the XIX° century.
And as you say to debate wether those concepts are good or bad is out of topic.

This thread asks the question: Did the National Socialists specifically consider people with blond hair/blue eyes to be superior to those without, even of they were German?


I gave the answer and it was "clearly NO".
Although i might add that before the war, entering the SS was based on very strict physical and genetic ( that is to prove x generation of blood purity) criteria. I guess that if you were 1.85m and blond with blue eyes, no question was asked and admittance was guaranteed.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:49 pm)

Balsamo:
Although i might add that before the war, entering the SS was based on very strict physical and genetic ( that is to prove x generation of blood purity) criteria. I guess that if you were 1.85m and blond with blue eyes, no question was asked and admittance was guaranteed.

Entering the SS was based upon one's German lineage, so I suppose that is "genetic". Israel has admittance laws based upon one's Jewish genetic lineage. I wonder if you approve.

You "guess" "no questions was asked and admittance [to the SS] was guaranteed". Indeed, the SS had strict health and condition requirements, much like any elite paramilitary body. Try being a dimwitted couch potato and attempt to join US Navy Seals. Won't happen. Being blond with blue eyes did not guarantee admittance into the SS. That is fact, Balsamo.
And yes, you are 'guessing'.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:57 pm)

Balsamo wrote:@friedrich

You misunderstood me. I am not using those concept of "Racism" or "appartheid" in the today sense...but as they existed and the meanings they had in those days.
Racism = the belief that some race are genetically superior to other.


Would it be racism to say that west Africans are genetically superior to other races at sprinting?

Apartheid = a concept that says that is best for every communities to live on their own with the less contact possible with the others.


I presume you mean "with the least contact possible." But this is much too vague. No-one has ever seriously advocated absolute isolation. The question is what degree of contact is desired. Again I ask: is modern Japan an apartheid state?

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby Balsamo » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:26 pm)

@Hannover and Friedrich

What i believe personnally does not matter.
Just to comment, Israel defines itself as a "Jewish state" so the ethnic part of its identity is quite clear. Being Jewish as a condition to join the army is quite logic as well.
As far as i know, Japan does not have racial laws. And if her family agrees, or if she really wants it, you both are free (have the rights) to marry a Japanese lady.
Until recently, Germany had one of the more rigid "nationality code" and becoming German without German blood was close to impossible.

But again today's world is irrelevant...It is the world in the first part of the 20th century that matters.
Back then, the USA had racial laws long before Nazi Germany enacted theirs.
Colonial Empires were all regime based on racial distinction...and thus can be considered as "racist" in TODAY's definition. That was my point.
Considering the white domination on most part of the world back then, yes the world was indeed based on racial values.

It is no myth that Nazi Germany had Institutions working Racial theories...by then, racism being a field a scientific research...But the USA, the UK had some too...
I guess the texts provided by datsch are illustrative enough.

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Re: Source of "blond hair blue eyes" myth?

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:13 pm)

In that case, I would suggest using "racialist" and "ethnonationalist" rather than "racist" and "apartheid," as the latter terms are highly rhetorically charged.

As far as Japan is concerned, it is highly racialist. Naturalization for a non-Japanese is next to impossible. It's difficult even for foreign-born Japanese - they are regarded as culturally alien. But nobody calls Japan racist, because people who say they are anti-racist are really just anti-white. Only whites are ever called racist.


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