Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimneys

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby Zulu » 6 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:13 am)

Bob wrote:TheBlackRabbitofInlé - crematoria in concentration camps (or in Auschwitz which is in question here) worked differently than civilian crematoria, smoke was emitted from the chimneys, this is also supported by photos which show layer of soot on the top of the chimneys.[1]

Kurt Prüfer:[2]

“In den zivilen Krematorien wird mittels eines speziellen Blasebalgs bereits vorher erhitzte Luft eingeblasen, wodurch die Leiche rascher und ohne Rauch verbrennt. Die Konstruktion der Krematorien für die Konzentrationslager ist anders; sie ermöglicht es nicht, die Luft im voraus zu erhitzen, weshalb die Leiche langsamer und unter Rauchentwicklung verbrennt. Um den Rauch sowie den Geruch des verbrennenden Leichnams zu verringern, wird eine Ventilation eingesetzt.”


Translation from the book of Carlo Mattogno:[3]

“In the civilian crematoria preheated air is injected by means of special bellows, causing the corpse to burn more quickly and without smoke. The design of the crematoria in the concentration camps is different; it does not allow any preheating of air, which causes the corpse to burn more slowly and with production of smoke. A ventilation is used to reduce the smoke and the smell of the burning corpse.”


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989, p. 341.; The Auschwitz Album, Peter Hellman, Lili Meier, Beate Klarsfeld, 1981, p. 4, p. 14, p. 15, p. 19.
[2]Jürgen Graf, Anatomie der sowjetischen Befragung der Topf-Ingenieure, Die Verhöre von Fritz Sander, Kurt Prüfer, Karl Schultze und Gustav Braun durch Offiziere der sowjetischen Antispionageorganisation Smersch (1946/1948), 2002, p. 404.
[3]Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz:The Case for Sanity, Published by The Barnes Review, 2010, p. 197.

From Jean-Claude Pressac in his interview by Valérie Igounet on June 15, 1995.
Lors du premier congrès européen sur l'incinération à Dresde en 1878, des règles strictes furent définies pour la conduite des incinérations. Les entreprises édifiant les fours durent s'y soumettre. L'une de ces règles indiquait que «les produits de l'incinération ne doivent pas empester le voisinage». Les fumées et les odeurs étaient proscrites. La firme Topf, dont l'activité première, dès sa fondation, était la
construction des foyers en tout genre, avait la hantise des émissions de fumées, signe d'un mauvais réglage du foyer. Un de ses prospectus commerciaux interpellait les futurs clients avec cet avertissement: «Si votre cheminée fume, vous perdez de l'argent». Les fours d'incinération TOPF ne fumaient pas et ceux des firmes concurrentes non plus.
[...]
Interrogé sur l'incinération concentrationnaire par les Soviétiques après son arrestation en mars 1946, Prüfer leur en expliqua les caractéristiques. Les fours d'incinération civils fonctionnent avec de l'air préalablement chauffé, si bien que le cadavre s'incinère plus vite et sans fumées. Comme les fours dans les camps furent structurés autrement, l'emploi de ce procédé était impossible. Les cadavres s'incinéraient plus lentement et des fumées se développaient. Pour contrer cela, il suffisait de pulser de l'air dans le creuset incinérateur. En effet, les trois fours bimoufle du crématoire 1 du camp central d'Auschwitz étaient équipés de souffleries. Les fours trimoufle montés
au crématoire de Buchenwald et dans les crématoires II et III de Birkenau pareillement. En opérant ainsi, avec une technique identique au soufflage d'air sur un feu de forge, Prüfer obtenait une durée de crémation proche de ses fours civils et évitait la formation de fumées. Par contre, les fours à huit moufles des crématoires IV et V n'en comportaient pas, mais compensaient cela par un fort tirage avec deux
cheminées de seize mètres de haut.


Translation

When the first European congress on incineration in Dresden in 1878, strict rules were defined for the performance of cremations. Companies constructing ovens had to submit. One of these rules stated that "the products of cremation should not stink up the neighborhood." Smokes and odors were outlawed. The firm Topf, whose primary activity, since its foundation, was the manufacture of ovens of all kinds, was obsessed by smoke emissions, a sign of poor furnace's setting. One of its commercial leaflets called future clients with this warning: "If your chimney smokes, you lose money." Cremation furnaces from Topf didn't smoke and either those of competing firms.
[...]
Asked about the cremation in concentration camps by the Soviets after his arrest in March 1946, Prüfer explained the features to them. Civilian cremation ovens operate with preheated air so that the body burns more quickly and without smoke. As ovens in the camps were structured differently, the use of this method was impossible. The bodies were cremated more slowly and smokes were generated. To counter this, it was enough to pump air into the muffle incinerator. In fact, the three bi-muffle ovens of the Krema I at Auschwitz I were equipped with airblowers. The tri-muffle ovens mounted at the crematorium of Buchenwald and at Kremas II and III of Birkenau were alike. By doing this, with a technique similar to blowing air on a fire of forge, Prüfer got times of cremation close to those of his civilian ovens and avoided the formation of smoke. By cons, the eight-muffles ovens of Kremas IV and V did not include it, but they compensated by a strong draw through two sixteen meters high chimneys.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Source Jean-Claude Pressac, Textes Divers, p 56-58. http://archive.org/details/TextesDivers
Extract from "Entretien avec Jean-Claude Pressac" (Interview with JC Pressac) realized by Valérie Igounet, in La Ville-du-
Bois, on thursday 15 June 1995" and published in the book "Histoire du négationnisme en
France", Paris, Le Seuil, 2000. (p 648-649)


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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby Zulu » 6 years 10 months ago (Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:50 pm)

Denise Holstein is a Jewish survivor born on February 6, 1927 in Rouen (France). Deported from Drancy to Auschwitz II on July 31, 1944. She was then evacued to Bergen Belsen were she saw the liberation of the camp.
Wrote the book "Je ne vous oublierai jamais, mes enfants d’Auschwitz" (I'll never forget you, my children of Auschwitz) Paris, Editions 1, 1995, 142 p.

Denise-Holstein Book.jpg
Denise-Holstein Book.jpg (19.67 KiB) Viewed 3908 times

On p.74
Denise Holstein Book p74r.jpg
Denise Holstein Book p74r.jpg (19.71 KiB) Viewed 3908 times

Le ciel est rouge, l'odeur est effroyable, l'air irrespirable. Des flammes gigantesques sortent des cheminées. On nous installe dans une baraque, juste en face. Nous y passons quinze jours. Comment peut-on vivre, dormir, manger devant un pareil spectacle?

The sky is red, the smell is terrible, the air unbreathable. Gigantic flames come out of the chimneys. We are settled in a hut just opposite. We spend a fortnight there. How can we live, sleep, eat before such a spectacle?

Denise is always available to perform conferences at high schools for teaching young people the Shoah's truth.
On p. 127 of his book she writes:
Denise Holstein Conf, p127.jpg
Denise Holstein Conf, p127.jpg (124.83 KiB) Viewed 3908 times

Je me livre à leurs questions et j'y réponds le plus spontanément, le plus sincèrement possible. Oui, dans les camps d'extermination, le pire fut vrai, chambres à gaz et crématoires, assassinats et tortures diverses, savon fait à partir de graisse humaine et abat-jour

I surrender myself to their questions and I answer as spontaneously, as sincerely as possible. Yes, in the extermination camps, the worst was true, gas chambers and crematoria, assassinations and torture, soap made ​​from human fat and lampshades made ​​of tattooed human skin...

Source: video of Vincent Reynouard "Auschwitz : les faux témoins" (Auschwitz: false eyewitnesses) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMaRJf8yuSQ

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:21 am)

Shlomo Venezia, as cited by Carlo Mattogno:

"From the window one could see flames, it was a horrible thing, the flames issued from a chimney… […].

We still didn't know anything, we had seen the flames and they had told us that there were crematoria…"

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 9 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:59 pm)

Judith Sternberg (a Hungarian Jewess) describing arrival at Birkenau, as quoted in Holocaust by Martin Gilbert, p. 675

Corpses were strewn all over the road; bodies were hanging from the barbed wire fence; the sound of shots rang in the air continuously. Blazing flames shot into the sky; a giant smoke cloud ascended above them. Starving, emaciated human skeletons stumbled toward us, uttering incoherent sounds. They fell down right in front of our eyes, and lay there gasping out their last breath.


Gilbert's citation is

Judith Sternberg Newman, In the Hell of Auschwitz, New York 1964, page 18; quoted in Terence Des Pres, The Survivor: an Anatomy of Life in the Death Camps, London 1976, page 86


Also on page 675, Gilbert quotes another chimney flames passage:

When we arrived in Birkenau such a smell of burning flesh wafted towards us that in the groups arriving at night, who not only smelt the stench but saw the flames rising from the crematoria, many committed suicide at once.


His citation is

'Report drawn up on 12 October 1944' (by a Jew from Hungary): Pazner papers, Yad Vashem archive.

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 9 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:44 pm)

Not an Auschwitz crematorium chimney, but one in Mauthausen:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp
DR. KAUFFMANN: My question was this: Do you know that the strictest orders were given to the SS personnel, to the executioners, et cetera, not to speak even inside the camp, much less outside of it, of the atrocities that went on and that eyewitnesses who spoke of them rendered themselves liable to the most rigorous penalties, including the death penalty? Do you know anything about that, about such a practice inside the camps? Perhaps you will tell me whether you yourself were allowed to talk about any observations of the kind.

VEITH: I know that liberated prisoners had to sign a statement saying that they would never reveal what had happened in the camp and that they had to forget what had happened; but those who were in contact with the population, and there were many of them, did not fail to talk about it. Furthermore, Mauthausen was situated on a hill. There was a crematorium, which emitted flames 3 feet high. When you see flames 3 feet high coming out of a chimney every night, you are bound to wonder what it is; and everyone must have known that it was a crematorium.

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:23 pm)

Crematoriums II, III and IV in Birkenau plus No.1 at Auschwitz had a capacity by full action to cremate between 15,000 - 20,000 in twenty-four hours. Huge fires could be seen splashing out of the chimneys during the night time and a smell of burnt organic substance similar to the smell in a butcher's shop was continuously in the air.

May 1946 statement of Dr. Karel Sperber (Czech), Auschwitz inmate 1942 - 1945, found in PRO TNA WO 311/291
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cata ... 91#summary


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enlarged: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/8a986553135 ... a4aab5.jpg
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby Hektor » 6 years 3 months ago (Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:23 pm)

friedrichjansson wrote:5. Testimony of Rudolf Vrba in The World at War, episode 20. (In the same episode, Rita Boas Koupman speaks of "flames until the sky" but does not specify that they came from chimneys.)
...

Our own World at War episode 20 is not downloadable from the forum right now.

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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:40 pm)

Image

Auschwitz-Birkenau survivor Renée Firestone née Weinfeld's 'there go your parent's up the chimney ' story is very well known. It's likely she told it quite a number of times in the 37 years she's been addressing schoolchildren on behalf of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Educational Outreach Program.
http://www1.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_ ... ivor_.html

Occasionally she also mentions the chimneys were spewing flames as well:

She told them how her younger sister cried when they were separated from their parents. She said that when she asked an overseer when they would be reunited, he pointed to smoke emerging from a crematorium chimney and said: "See the flames, the ashes. There are your parents."

Register Star (Rockford, IL), Thursday, March 5, 1992, p.6.
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/df4f5959668 ... 74225a.jpg


On the day they arrived in Auschwitz, she and thousands of others were sprayed with DDT, and their heads were shaved. The prisoners were stripped of their clothing and forced through ice-cold showers to be “refreshed” in front of laughing Nazi soldiers. Her mother was put on a military truck with the elderly and the young, on their way to the gas chambers. Flames shot out of large, brick chimneys and ash fell from the sky, lighting up the otherwise black night. “It look[ed] like hell,” Firestone said in broken English to a quiet and somber audience. With her sister crying next to her, Firestone approached an overseer and asked when she would be united with her parents. “You don’t see the chimney and fire and smoke? There go your parents!” she was told. “When you go through the chimney you will be united with your parents.”

'Holocaust survivor speaks out', by Katie Booth, published 12.04.08.
http://www.newsreview.com/chico/holocau ... oid=885003


In January 1995 she was flown to Poland by the Steven Spielberg Shoah Foundation to be filmed wandering about Birkenau wearing a fur coat and describing her feelings, memories, what she was prompted to mention by the production team etc. She didn't tell her signature 'there go your parent's up the chimney ' story there, but she did mention flaming chimneys:

Image

"This was Lucifer's inferno. The chimneys of the crematoria are [sic] visible from here—on all sides.* They were bellowing fire and soot twenty-four hours-a-day. And we knew that it was our brothers and sisters being burnt. The trains were coming in twenty-four hours-a-day, three, four trains a day."

(* Gesticulating towards the former locations of Krema 2 & 3 with her left arm and Kremas 4 + 5 with her right, as in screenshot above.)

— Renée Firestone standing besides Barrack 28 in Compound BIIc, Auschwitz-Birkenau, January 26, 1995

From 1:59:35 on video:
http://youtu.be/E2X7-NYbZE8?t=1h59m35s


Worth watching from 2:18:30 to hear her story about Dr. Mengele pulling her out of a queue in the Central Sauna and asking her 'Why are you here (i.e. Auschwitz)?' Renee told Mengele she was there because she was a Jew. The story must have descended into a real farce shortly afterwards as the footage suddenly cuts.
http://youtu.be/E2X7-NYbZE8?t=2h18m30s

And from 2:22:18 whilst she stands beside the purported ruins of Bunker 2 aka the Little White House, an alleged homicidal gas chamber, but instead claims that it was a cremation pit that was specially dug to allow the human fat to be collected.
http://youtu.be/E2X7-NYbZE8?t=2h22m18s
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:56 am)

Image
Czechoslovakian-born Jew Fred Terna is an Auschwitz-Birkenau survivor—he spent a few weeks there in late 1944—and an "artist"

Image

This is his creation titled 'Ninth and Deepest,' referring to Dante's Inferno (photo lifted from cited book).

Terna said about this piece of art, December 22, 1981:

I have some form, symbolical, by the roughness of the color, the dissonances in color, the reds. It's a chimney, it's explosion. Well, it's obviously for me a chimney, Auschwitz chimney, and flames going all around it, there's also a Menorah in it, don't ask me why. Well, fire, light, all these things go together."

Vivian Alpert Thompson, A Mission in Art: Recent Holocaust Works in America, Mercer University Press, 1988, p.37.
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:42 am)

Image

Romanian-born Jew and Auschwitzer Hedi Fried's tale seems awfully similar to that of Renée Firestone's 'there go your parent's up the chimney ' (see the 2rd post above). I don't know who ripped off who, the earliest I've found Firestone spinning the yarn is 1992, whilst Fried's autobiography—which was written in Swedish—was first published in English in 1990.

The girls ran to the guards and asked: 'When will our mothers come?'

The guards, Polish girls hardened by several years of imprisonment, pointed to the smoking chimney.

'There are your mothers, you little fools. Where do you think you've come to, a holiday camp? This is an extermination camp. Look at the chimney. Don't you see the flames? There your mothers are burning, your fathers will become ash, your little brothers and sisters go to heaven.' (p.87)

'Do you know what I heard?'said Olga. 'They put bromide in the bread to keep us quiet. Do you think it's true?'

[...]

if there was bromide in the bread, that explained a lot of things. Our passivity, so that Olga and I had been able to pile corpses into pyramids without screaming. And the way most of the girls chose not to believe their eyes or to see the flames from the chimney. (pp.101-102)


Hedi Fried, The Road to Auschwitz: Fragments of a Life, Bison Books Nebraska Univ. Press, 1996.
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby borjastick » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:33 am)

Black Rabbit when was the Donohue tv show with Bradley and Cole? That's when I think this claim of 'there go your parents up the chimney' got serious air time and publicity. No doubt it was kicking about before as it is a powerful emotional lever to throw into an argument or holocaust presentation by a survivor. One that on the face of it cannot be argued with by a passive and tearful audience.
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:36 am)

That Donahue show was recorded March 14, 1994, and I've not watched it in years, but I don't recall it featuring Renée Firestone nor 'there go your parents up the chimney ' tale.

I might be wrong, but didn't Eric Hunt feature it in his Last Days of the Big Lie, having taken the footage from her Shoah Foundation interview which was recorded October 11, 1994 !?
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:54 am)

Lucette Matalon Lagnado and Sheila Cohn Dekel's book Children of the Flames: Dr. Josef Mengele and the Untold Story of the Twins of Auschwitz, which is largely based on their c.1985 interviews with numerous survivors of Dr. Mengele's wacky experiments, is chock-a-block with tales about flaming chimneys:

During Mengele's mandated "recreation periods," males twins played soccer under a sky made brighter by flames pouring out the crematoriums. (p.9)

The sights of the camp—the dead bodies, the bones, the crematoriums spewing bright red flames into the vermillion skies—have continued to haunt Mengele's twins. (p.12)


Galician Jew Zvi Klein, known as 'Zvi the sailor,' saw flames coming out of a Israeli textile factory chimney every night, which reminded him of Auschwitz:
I try to forget. I try to erase the memories. But I can't seem to leave Auschwitz behind, no matter how far I go. I find reminders of the the camp all over the world. Even right here in Israel. From the window of my apartment house in Ashod, I can see a factory-a large industrial plant that manufactures I don't know what. Textiles, I think. It has a large chimney which spews out fire at night. And when I look out my window in the evening, I see not a factory chimney, but the crematorium of Birkenau with its flames, its tall red flames leaping out at the sky. (pp.25-26)


Zvi the sailor wasn't the only one to see the flames from that Israeli factory chimney, Hungarian-born twin sisters Hedvah and Leak Stern saw them too:
From our Moshav, we could see the chimney of a factory in downtown Ashod. We were reminded of the chimneys of Auschwitz, especially at night, when the flames poured out. (p.192)


Hungarian-born Jewess Judith Yagudah recalled:
It was like a nightmare when we arrived. We could see the chimneys, and the flames pouring out of these chimneys. My father turned to my mother and said, "You see, Rosie, the Germans are taking us to burn us." [...] my father had no idea what Auschwitz was when we arrived. But when we got out of the cattle car, and he saw the dogs, and the Nazis in uniform, and the flames billowing out from the crematorium, he guessed. (pp.44-45)

(Although I've posted one of these before)


Romanian-born Jewess Eva Moses Kor recalled a conversation she'd had forty years previously, when aged ten:
From our barracks, we could see huge smoking chimneys towering high above the camp. There were glowing flames rising from above them. "What are they burning so late in the evening?" I asked the other children. "The Germans are burning people," they answered. (p.58)

(Another flaming chimney story from Moses Kor is already on the thread)


Twins Lea and Menashe Lorinczi were holidaying with their grandparents in Transylvania when the Nazis came and took them away to Auschwitz, fortunately they, and their parents all survived the Holocaust. Their father told the author (although he himself wasn't in Auschwitz):
The children would stand for hours just watching the flames. The crematoriums were located only one hundred meters away from the twins' barracks. There was just a small fence in between. (p.73)


Hungarian-born Jewish twin Peter Somogyl recalled:
We arrived at Auschwitz on July 9, 1944. It was early in the evening, and when we stepped out of the cattle cars, we could see the chimneys, with very, very high flames leaping out of them. (p.75)


Lucette Matalon Lagnado, Sheila Cohn Dekel, Children of the Flames: Dr. Josef Mengele and the Untold Story of the Twins of Auschwitz, New York: Morrow, 1991.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:30 am)

They [700 Jewish children in the Terezín family camp in Birkenau] couldn't believe in anything: no, there was one thing in which they believed: the omnipotent power of the crematorium chimney, which they saw smoking before them. When it spewed forth flames, they only remarked drily that another transport must have come in.

- Hanna Hoffmann-Fischel, testimony given c.1960

cf. Patricia Heberer, Children During the Holocaust, Lanham, Maryland: Rowman Altamira, 2011, p.169.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Testimonies on flames from Auschwitz crematorium chimney

Postby Hektor » 5 years 11 months ago (Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:12 pm)

Unfortunately the google news search function doesn't work that well like in the past anymore - No Archive.


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