Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

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Fritz the Cat
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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Fritz the Cat » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:27 am)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:The claim that masses of Jews were gassed in just "three minutes" was made initially in the War Refugee Board Report of mid-1944 by two self-described "eyewitnesses:" Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler. That famous report was widely distributed in the US at the time and was the basis of many subsequent assertions that the US knew about the mass gassings and should have bombed the tracks to Auschwitz, etc., etc. by people like Wyman, America and the Holocaust.

The entire text of the WRB Report actually appears in: The Bombing of Auschwitz by Michael J. Neufeld and Michael Berenbaum (2000). Berenbaum was and may still be the director of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. On page 244 we have the folowing: "After three minutes everyone in the chamber is dead."

In Commandant of Auschwitz by Rudolf Hoess [supposedly] (1951) the author actually claims on page 185 that Cyclon B gas was discharged into a group of Russians POWs "killing the victims instantly." On page 198 Hoess supposedly claims in describing another gassing: "The screaming, however, soon changed to the death rattle and in a few minutes all lay still. After twenty minutes at the latest no movement could be sicerned." It seems safe to say that according to Hoess from page 198, the vast majority would have still been dead "in a few minutes."

No doubt, some saner scholars have given more reasonable times for the alleged mass gassings--but, it is they who are tampering with the "evidence" such as it is, and not me. Certainly,Neufeld and Berenbaum qualify in many circles as "holocaust scholars." I suspect that David Irving will try, if he hasn't done so already, to give some revised "goldilocks "number of his own as to how many minutes were actually needed to gas the victims and it will be much longer than three minutes. Of course, Irving will never deny that gassings happened. Shame on him and people like him!

Friedrich Paul Berg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!



I didn't want to offend You, Mr. Berg, but in the debate You portrayed the "3-minute-claim" as for it to be the general narrative of the holohoax-believers, which it isn't.

"as many as 2ooo people were killed with cyanide in just 3 minutes" and "if one believes the hoax that all of the 2000 died within 3 minutes" is what You said, thereby discredting Your own argument from the start.

As for David Irving, did he publish any book on examining the Holocaust?

I'm no radical, and I for sure don't know the final Truth, what I know is that people like ARNO MAYER or FRITJOF MEYER do a lot in contributing to the cause of Holocaust™-Revisionism as well as convinced Deniers, and in the wider picture, Mr. Irving does a hell of a good job by his World War II-/Nazi-Leadership-Portrayal-Revisionism and is thereby indirectly contributing to Holocaust™-Revisionism as well...


Let's agree to disagree on these issues maybe....but all in all I very much appreciate Your efforts in working for the collapse of the Holohoax-Industry!!! :bom:

bookmarked http://www.nazigassings.com some time ago.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:12 am)

Perhaps Fritz-the-cat would care to share with us the "general narrative of the holohoax-believers"--whatever that is. The general narrative of holocaust "scholars" would also be of interest. But not too general, please.

Tell us, please, how long do they really think the gassings took in minutes, approximately, and on what basis if other than the "eyewitness" claims of people like Hoess and Vrba or Wetzler which they use and refer to again and again.

FPBerg
Nazi Gassings Never Happened!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Fritz the Cat » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:05 pm)

Please, Mr. Berg, let's just agree to disagree then, I made my point clear enough, You could have referred to Hoess' and the WRB's ludicrous claims, but You made it sound as if this 3 minutes was what MAINSTREAM Holocaust™ Proponents from Hilberg to Pressac to van Pelt to Lanzmann to Debroah "Bitch of Buchenwald" Lipstadt would claim. They don't.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:36 pm)

Well, Fritz-the-cat, please don't play hit-and-run with me. It is you who started this exchange by saying that I undermined myself. So, please answer my questions with some specific numbers and references. Any smart-Alec can make the vague claims that you have made so far.

Besides, I really am curious as to what the specific claims of the "scholars" you mentioned really are. Perhaps we can all learn something.

FPBerg
Learn everything at www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby JoFo » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:04 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Well, Fritz-the-cat, please don't play hit-and-run with me. It is you who started this exchange by saying that I undermined myself. So, please answer my questions with some specific numbers and references. Any smart-Alec can make the vague claims that you have made so far.

Besides, I really am curious as to what the specific claims of the "scholars" you mentioned really are. Perhaps we can all learn something.

FPBerg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened!


I just listened again to the audio of the debate and Fritz the Cat is right. By citing the three-minute duration you provided Muehlenkamp with an opening to refute that. Why don't you man up and admit you made a tactical blunder? Implying that he is "smart alec" doesn't help your cause, either.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Hohenems » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:22 pm)

Just to add my voice, the three-minute issue is kind of a red herring. Better to stick with the majority of the source that say 15-20 mins. Then beat them on the science.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:39 pm)

I don't know why it's such a big deal, this 3 minute bit. Yes that claim was made, and yes the story has been changed by those who benefit from the absurd gassing storyline. The fact that the Industry has changed their story benefits the Revisionist position, simple as that. I see no problem in using the 3 minute tale in debate.
Fritz's debate was courageous, more people are now discussing the 'holocaust', and that will always result in a Revisionist victory. The more the subject is debated, the worse it becomes for Jewish supremacist hate mongering.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby J William » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:55 pm)

Add in the outgassing time after the pellets were thrown in and the time to dissapate the gas throughout the "chamber". Even the 15-20 minute figure looks suspect. Also winter time temperatures would extend the times even further.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Bob » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:00 pm)

The most interesting and a bit disturbing (for me, a listener) thing was to find out that Mr. Muehlenkamp suffers from the stuttering or some similar disorder, but that´s all, the same repeated falsehoods + some new ones so one must repeat self over and over in order to expose them again and again ad infinitum. I can only recommend to Mr. Berg to debate with someone who has at least some basic competence and not to feed someone who speaks among other things about investigation which found hydrogen cyanide in the walls of the alleged gas chambers and other similar nonsenses.

What I consider as a more interesting is to find out if the people here are able to refute or to recognize his false claims themselves or if they simply wait for someone who is able to do the job for them in accordance with the slogan "can't someone else do it?"

Hohenems can quote for me the alleged "majority" of testimonies claiming 15-20 minutes, thanks in advance.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 7 months ago (Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:41 pm)

I really am curious as to what the specific claims of the "scholars" really are. Perhaps we can all learn something. Perhaps I missed something important. Perhaps I was wrong.

So where do the claims about 15-20 minutes come from? Where does Hilberg even use that figure? Or, any of the others and what are those claims based on? My questions here are not just for Fritz-the-Cat but for everyone. My question to someone who criticized me is what forums like this are all about--if they are about anything at all. So don't be so flustered, Fritz-the-Cat. Just tell us more about what you seem to have found already in your readings about the "general narrative of the holohoax-believers" and/or "holocaust scholars." I think we have a chance here to nail the hoaxers once again.

I have just been going through my Hilberg books and I cannot find any specific number at all, yet. Perhaps someone else can help.

I strongly suspect at this point that revisionists themselves, including myself until a few years ago, have gone along with a thoroughly bogus claim for decades that seemed so reasonble without exmining it critically. Even Fred Leuchter seems to have believed that cyanide gassings were quick and nearly painless "if they were done right." He had never actually witnessed even one gas execution.

FPBerg
Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Zulu » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:15 pm)

Hannover wrote:I don't know why it's such a big deal, this 3 minute bit. Yes that claim was made, and yes the story has been changed by those who benefit from the absurd gassing storyline. The fact that the Industry has changed their story benefits the Revisionist position, simple as that. I see no problem in using the 3 minute tale in debate.
Fritz's debate was courageous, more people are now discussing the 'holocaust', and that will always result in a Revisionist victory. The more the subject is debated, the worse it becomes for Jewish supremacist hate mongering.

- Hannover

I am afraid that the "right screenplay" of "massive gassings" was written AFTER the war by making something plausible by mixing parts of the numerous different versions available...

That is the reason which explains that at Nuremberg, thus before the establishment of a "right screenplay", we have several and various incredible versions according the the fantasy of the talkers (or liars as you want).

For example, at Nuremberg, the Russian prosecutor Rudenko gave a report of "massive gassings" coming from the counts of thousands of internees at Auschwitz. That "version" doesn't mention neither a supposed "undressing room" nor "fake showers" to make the victims enter peacefully into the "gas chambers"

As the so-called gas chamber is told to being underground, we can deduce that the scenes described happened at Krema II or III. Supposedly, the victims stripped "in front of the gas chamber" which is difficult to figure out where because there was only a little vestibule "in front of" and whips were allegedly used to drive them into the "gas chamber".

The total Time mentioned os of 12 min, including 4 to kill and 8 for the ventilation, it is quite a record registered in "gassing operations". As it is so incredible, the "right screenplay" has been corrected in order to present nowadays a more plausible version which contradicts blatantly those several thousands of eyewitnesses quoted at Nuremberg.
GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.SR.)

I will now quote an extract of the appeal to the public opinion of the world from the
representatives of several thousand former internees at Auschwitz:

"The gassing of unbelievable numbers of people took place upon the arrival of transports from various countries: France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Poland, the U.S.S.R., Norway, and others. The new arrivals had to pass before an SS doctor or else before the SS commandant of the camp. The latter pointed his finger to the right or left. The left meant death by gas. Out of a transport of 1,500, an average of 1,200 to 1,300 were immediately to be gassed.
Rarely the quota of people sent into the camp was a little higher. It often occurred that the SS doctors Mengele and Thilo performed this selection while whistling a lively tune. The people destined to be gassed were obliged to strip in front of the gas-chambers, after which they were driven with whips into the gas-chambers. Then the door of the underground gas-chamber was closed, and the people were gassed. Death occurred approximately 4 minutes later. After 8 minutes the gas chamber was opened, and workmen belonging to a special commando, the so-called Sonderkommando, transported the bodies to the cremation ovens which burned day and night.

"There was a shortage of ovens at the time of the arrival of transports from Hungary; consequently enormous ditches were dug for the purpose of cremating the bodies. Fires made of wood soaked in gasoline were laid in these ditches and the bodies were thrown into them. However, the SS men frequently hurled live children and adults into those ditches, where these unhappy victims died a terrible death. To save gasoline, the
fats and oils necessary for cremations were partly derived from the bodies of gassed people. Fats and oils for technical purposes and for the
manufacture of soap were also obtained from the corpses.

8 Feb. 46, http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby JackBQuick » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:51 pm)

Zulu wrote:
Hannover wrote:I don't know why it's such a big deal, this 3 minute bit. Yes that claim was made, and yes the story has been changed by those who benefit from the absurd gassing storyline. The fact that the Industry has changed their story benefits the Revisionist position, simple as that. I see no problem in using the 3 minute tale in debate.
Fritz's debate was courageous, more people are now discussing the 'holocaust', and that will always result in a Revisionist victory. The more the subject is debated, the worse it becomes for Jewish supremacist hate mongering.

- Hannover

I am afraid that the "right screenplay" of "massive gassings" was written AFTER the war by making something plausible by mixing parts of the numerous different versions available...

That is the reason which explains that at Nuremberg, thus before the establishment of a "right screenplay", we have several and various incredible versions according the the fantasy of the talkers (or liars as you want).

For example, at Nuremberg, the Russian prosecutor Rudenko gave a report of "massive gassings" coming from the counts of thousands of internees at Auschwitz. That "version" doesn't mention neither a supposed "undressing room" nor "fake showers" to make the victims enter peacefully into the "gas chambers"

As the so-called gas chamber is told to being underground, we can deduce that the scenes described happened at Krema II or III. Supposedly, the victims stripped "in front of the gas chamber" which is difficult to figure out where because there was only a little vestibule "in front of" and whips were allegedly used to drive them into the "gas chamber".

The total Time mentioned os of 12 min, including 4 to kill and 8 for the ventilation, it is quite a record registered in "gassing operations". As it is so incredible, the "right screenplay" has been corrected in order to present nowadays a more plausible version which contradicts blatantly those several thousands of eyewitnesses quoted at Nuremberg.
GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.SR.)

I will now quote an extract of the appeal to the public opinion of the world from the
representatives of several thousand former internees at Auschwitz:

"The gassing of unbelievable numbers of people took place upon the arrival of transports from various countries: France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Poland, the U.S.S.R., Norway, and others. The new arrivals had to pass before an SS doctor or else before the SS commandant of the camp. The latter pointed his finger to the right or left. The left meant death by gas. Out of a transport of 1,500, an average of 1,200 to 1,300 were immediately to be gassed.
Rarely the quota of people sent into the camp was a little higher. It often occurred that the SS doctors Mengele and Thilo performed this selection while whistling a lively tune. The people destined to be gassed were obliged to strip in front of the gas-chambers, after which they were driven with whips into the gas-chambers. Then the door of the underground gas-chamber was closed, and the people were gassed. Death occurred approximately 4 minutes later. After 8 minutes the gas chamber was opened, and workmen belonging to a special commando, the so-called Sonderkommando, transported the bodies to the cremation ovens which burned day and night.

"There was a shortage of ovens at the time of the arrival of transports from Hungary; consequently enormous ditches were dug for the purpose of cremating the bodies. Fires made of wood soaked in gasoline were laid in these ditches and the bodies were thrown into them. However, the SS men frequently hurled live children and adults into those ditches, where these unhappy victims died a terrible death. To save gasoline, the
fats and oils necessary for cremations were partly derived from the bodies of gassed people. Fats and oils for technical purposes and for the
manufacture of soap were also obtained from the corpses.

8 Feb. 46, http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp


Hi Zulu !

I have also read this text by Rudenko but what I cannot remember is whether or not his assertion were "proved" by an Extraordinary State Commission. Do you know if it was? At any rate, this Roberto chap has a lot of trust in those commissions because on his blog and elsewhere he likes to flaunt whatever they say ‒ if it fosters his holocaust claims further :wink:

In this case, however, the ESC doesn't do him a lot of good. But certainly, Roberto has an excuse for it. They're only right when Roberto want's them to be right, and vice-verse. Typically dishonest lawyeresque reasoning.

PS:
It's revs on this very forum helped me to find the right direction by advising me on what books to check and to compare the eyewitness statements with scientific works, and that's basically what got me from being a believer, to a disbeliever - or whatever one should call it :D
I remember in 2004 when Sailor crushed me in debate:
http://www.codoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1434

Sorry for the slight off the topic anecdote!
The Holocaust belief was doomed from the beginning; it rests on a rotten foundation.

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby The Warden » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:28 pm)

Hannover wrote:I don't know why it's such a big deal, this 3 minute bit. Yes that claim was made, and yes the story has been changed by those who benefit from the absurd gassing storyline. The fact that the Industry has changed their story benefits the Revisionist position, simple as that. I see no problem in using the 3 minute tale in debate.

- Hannover


Exactly. They had to change the time frame to account for the different corpse colors as claimed by the witnesses. Most claimed blue, while the Lone Ranger Tauber claimed red. In order to explain the blue corpses, they needed to add time to the process to make up the story of people suffocating before they were given the opportunity to die by cyanide poisoning. Changing the alleged gassing time frame also changed the ventilation time frame and the body removal and disposal time frame, along with cremation time frames. Exterminationists have painted themselves into quite a tiny corner.

And all because of the color red, which must be necessary somewhere along the line to claim cyanide poisoning.
Yet they have but one solitary witness from the entire war and time after to even mention the color red.

This of course is all for the sheer entertainment of watching Muehlenkamp bounce around since there were no bodies in the first place.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Lohengrin » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:46 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg: "I have just been going through my Hilberg books and I cannot find any specific number at all, yet. Perhaps someone else can help."

I find in my Dutch version of Hilberg's 'The Destruction of . . ." (ISBN 978-90-74274-14-2, 2008 (my translation of p. 1200): ". . . Untersturmfuehrer Grabner watched the procedure with a chronometer in his hand (source: Perry Broad, subordinate of Grabner, Dec. 14, 1945, NI 11397). After the first globules(!!) released the gas, the victims started screaming [. . .] The death-struggle took about two minutes, after which the moaning stopped. Within a quarter (sometimes after five minutes everybody in the gas chamber was dead."

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Re: Rematch DEBATE between Roberto Muehlenkamp and FPBerg

Postby Moderator » 6 years 7 months ago (Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:06 pm)

Remember all, if you have a specifically stated gassing time from an 'eyewitness', please post it to Friedrich Jansson's
thread:
'wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassings'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7638
Thanks, M1
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