wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassings

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:45 pm)

Horhug wrote:"Steps were taken to conceal from the victims the fact that they were to be exterminated and it was represented to them that by going through the gas chambers they were only going through a bathing and delousing process. It took from three to fifteen minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, and when their screaming had stopped it was assumed they were dead."


Now that is very interesting. It explains a lot about the pattern of the witness statements. Of course, operationally it would have been a disaster - such a gassing process would have left quite a number of survivors of each gassing.



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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:08 am)

Salmen Lewental - writings allegedly unearthed in Birkenau in 1962

after a few [minutes] all were asphyxiated


The reference appears to be to the bunkers. Quotation from Kogon et al, Nazi Mass Murder, p. 150

Johann Kremer

an SS man wearing a gas mask threw the contents of a can of gas through an opening in the side wall. Through this opening we could heat the cries and wailing of the victims; we could hear their death throes. But all that took a very short time. I don't think it lasted more than a few minutes, but I can't say exactly.


The location is one of the bunkers. Quotation from Kogon et al, Nazi Mass Murder, pp. 149-150

C.S. Bendel

the double doors, made of solid oak, were closed. For two interminable minutes we could hear fists being beaten against the wall, cries that were no longer like anything human. And then nothing more.... Five minutes later the doors were opened.


The location is krema V (Bendel calls it krema IV because he is using the Birkenau numbers). Quotation from Kogon et al, Nazi Mass Murder, pp. 163-4

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:17 am)

Well, I disagree about Hilberg lying. Hilberg had famously claimed at the Zuendel trial that he had merely misread a copy many times removed from the Gerstein statement which caused him to believe that 700-800 people were packed into "93 square meters of space" whereas the document clearly said they were packed into only 25 quare meters. Search on Google for: "93 square meters" Gerstein

Getting back to times-to-death in cyanide gas hambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau, Hilberg's claim changed over the years. In the hardbound edition, Vol. 3 of The Destruction of the European Jews (1985), the so-called: "revised and definitive edition" according to the title page, and which I cited above also, Hilberg claimed on page 975:
The agony lasted for about two minutes, and as the shrieking subsided, the dying people slumped over. Within fifteen minutes (sometimes five), everyone in the gas chamber was dead.
The gas was now allowed to escape and after half an hour, the door was opened.

That doesn't seem totally unreasonable at first glance even though one wonders about the difference between five and fifteen minutes. However, in the 1961 edition (first edition possibly) Hilberg puts things differently as follows on page 627:
The agony lasted for about two minutes; then the shrieking subsided, the dying men slumping over. Within four minutes everybody in the gas chamber was dead. ref.46 The gas was now allowed to escape, after about a half-hour the doors were opened. ref.47

So clearly, 24 years of reflection somehow caused Hilberg to revise "four minutes" to "five and fifteen minutes." What happened? Did someone tap him on the shoulder?

Note also that the wording "The agony lasted for about two minutes" suggests to me at least that most of the intended victims were already dead in those "two minutes" and that the rest, those hiding in remote corners or under bodies perhaps, were dead also in the next two minutes (Hilberg's early text from 1961)--or next eleven minutes (Hilberg's later revised text from 1985). So, instead of simply embracing references to the gassings taking as long as fifteen minutes, I suggest that everyone should dig down into the specific claims. Were any of these victims assisting in their own executions by taking a single deep breath to quickly ingest a lethal dose of cyanide gas? Of course, not!

In any event, the criticism of my debate opening statement by Fritz-the-Cat several days ago is largely unfounded.

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Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Well, I disagree about Hilberg lying. Hilberg had famously claimed at the Zuendel trial that he had merely misread a copy many times removed from the Gerstein statement which caused him to believe that 700-800 people were packed into "93 square meters of space" whereas the document clearly said they were packed into only 25 quare meters.


The 93 square meters figure comes from Leon Poliakov. I don't know that Hilberg used it - do you have a source?

Back to gassing time:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: [..] They were taken to a red brick building, which bore the letters "Baden," that is to say "Baths." There, to begin with, they were made to undress and given a towel before they went into the' so-called shower room. Later on, at the time of the large convoys from Hungary, they had no more time left to play-act or to pretend; they were brutally undressed, and I know these details as I knew a little Jewess from France who lived with her family at the "Republique" district.

M. DUBOST: In Paris?

MME . VAILLANT-COUTURIER: In Paris. She was called "little Marie" and she was the only one, the sole survivor of a family of nine. Her mother and her seven brothers and sisters had been gassed on arrival. When I met her she was employed to undress the babies before they were taken into the gas chamber. Once the people were undressed they took them into a room which was somewhat like a shower room, and gas capsules were thrown through an opening in the ceiling. An SS man would watch the effect produced through a porthole. At the end of 5 or 7 minutes, when the gas had completed its work, he gave the signal to open the doors; and men with gas masks---they too were internees-went into the room and removed the corpses. They told us that the internees must have suffered before dying, because they were closely clinging to one another and it was very difficult to separate them.

After that a special squad would come to pull out gold teeth and dentures; and again, when the bodies had been reduced to ashes, they would sift them in an attempt to recover the gold.

At Auschwitz there were eight crematories but, as from 1944, these proved insufficient. The SS had large pits dug by the internees, where they put branches, sprinkled with gasoline, which they set on fire. Then they threw the corpses into the pits. From our block we could see after about three-quarters of an' hour or an hour after the arrival of a convoy, large flames coming from the crematory, and the sky was lighted up by the burning pits.

One night we were awakened by terrifying cries. And we discovered, on the following day, from the men working in the Sonderkommando-the "Gas Kommando"-that on the preceding day, the gas supply having run out, they had thrown the children into the furnaces alive.


So the doors were opened and the sonderkommando entered (with gas masks) after 5-7 minutes. The location must be krema II/III, since the zyklon was thrown through an opening [singular!] in the ceiling and Vaillant-Couturier claims to have been in Birkenau. On the other hand, she says that there were eight crematoria, so it's fair to say that locations exist for her only in the vaguest of senses.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Charles Traynor » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:26 pm)

Kitty Hart claims to have had a very good view of Krema IV whilst she was working as a member of the Kanada Kommando. The following quotes are taken from her books I am alive (1961) and Return to Auschwitz (1985).

I stood hypnotised. I could not move. I was actually witnessing with my very own eyes a murder, not of one person, but of hundreds of people, innocent people who had been led, mostly unsuspecting into a large hall. On the outside of the low building a ladder had been placed which reached up to a small opening. A figure in SS uniform climbed up briskly. At the top he pulled on a gas mask and gloves. Holding the opening with One hand, he pulled a bag out of his pocket, and quickly threw the contents, a white powder, inside, shutting the opening immediately. In a flash he was down and, throwing the ladder on the lawn, ran away as if chased by a ghost.

At the same time the most terrifying screams echoed through the air, the desperate cries of suffocating people. I stood holding my breath, my hands pressed against my ears, but the cries were so loud, one would have thought the whole world would have been able to hear them.

Someone shook me. “It’s over. Do you hear me, it’s quiet. They are all dead now.”

It had taken about five to eight minutes.
I Am Alive, 1961, Kitty Hart, pp. 85-86

...but I went on watching, hypnotized. What I was witnessing was murder, not of one person, but of hundreds of innocent people at a time. Of course we had known, had whispered about it, and been terrified of it from a distance; but now I was seeing it, right there in front of me.

On the outside of the low building a ladder had been placed. A figure in the S.S. uniform climbed briskly up. At the top he pulled on a gas mask and gloves, tipped what looked from here like a white powder into an opening in the roof, and then hurried back down the ladder and ran off. Screams began to come out of the building. We could hear them echoing across to our hut, the desperate cries of suffocating people. I held my breath and pressed my hands over ears, but the screams were so loud you’d have thought the whole world must be able to hear them.

‘It’s over.’ Someone was shaking me. ‘It’s alright, it’s gone quiet. They’re all dead now.’

It could not have taken more than ten minutes.
Return To Auschwitz, 1985, kitty Hart, p. 112
Rabbi Shlomo Risikin: "The [non-Jewish] world is divided into parts: those who actively participated with the Nazis and those who passively collaborated with them."

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:33 pm)

As to Hilberg's actual use of the "93 square meters," I have not been able to find a good reference for that exchange. Perhaps someone close to Faurisson can find it.

A lengthy portion of some of the court exchanges between Christie and Hilberg at the Zuendel Trial is in: Did Six Million Really Die? Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel --1988, edited by Barbara Kulaszka, forward by Dr. Robert Faurisson (1992--Samisdat Publishers). Some of the exchanges regarding Gerstein appear on pages 31 through 36.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:09 pm)

The following is from an online essay tntiled "The Gas Chamber"http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/gascham.html. I present part of it here with colored highlighting to help show that these executions, even with a rapid release of cyanide gas are still radically different from the mythical Nazi gas executions of thousands at a time.
Modern era (post Furman) lethal gas executions.
Five states carried out eleven executions by lethal gas after the resumption of the death penalty in 1977. These being Arizona, California, Mississippi, Nevada and North Carolina.

Arizona (2 executions).
Arizona moved from hanging to the gas chamber at the State Penitentiary in Florence for the execution of brothers 19 year old Fred and 18 year old Manuel Hernandez at 5am on July 6th 1934. A further 33 men would follow them to this fate up to 1963 when Manuel Silva became the last pre Furman execution on March 14th of that year. Arizona’s next execution occurred some 29 years later when Donald Eugene Harding was gassed on April 6th, 1992. At 12:18 a.m., the sodium cyanide pellets dropped into the vat beneath Harding's chair containing 6 quarts of distilled water and 6 pints of sulphuric acid. Cameron Harper, a reporter for KTVK-TV said, "I watched Harding go into violent spasms for 57 seconds. Then he began to convulse less frequently. His back muscles rippled. The spasms grew less violent. I timed them as ending six minutes and 37 seconds after they began. His head went down in little jerking motions. Obviously, the man was suffering. This was a violent death, make no mistake about it."; Harper went on, "It was an ugly event. We put animals to death more humanely. This was not a clean and simple death". Another witness, Carla McClain, a reporter for the Tucson Citizen said, "Harding's death was extremely violent. He was in great pain. I heard him gasp and moan. I saw his body turn from red to purple." This execution prompted the introduction of lethal injection in late 1992, although prisoners sentenced before November 15th 1992 can still choose lethal gas.
On March 4th, 1999, Walter Le Grand was executed in Arizona's gas chamber at his request, apparently as a protest against the death penalty. (A week previously, his brother Karl had chosen lethal injection.) Le Grand took 18 minutes to die after his executioners dropped the cyanide pellets into the acid, enveloping him in a cloud of white, steam-like fumes.

California (2 executions).
On Tuesday, April 21st, 1992, 39 year old Robert Alton Harris was put to death in the gas chamber at San Quentin Prison in California's first execution for 25 years.
At 6.07 a.m., a prison official operated the lever, slowly lowering the pellets of cheesecloth wrapped sodium cyanide into the vat of sulphuric acid beneath the chair to create the lethal hydrocyanic gas. Harris took a number of deep breaths and for several minutes appeared to gasp and twitch convulsively. His head snapped back and then dropped as he strained against the straps. After a minute, his hands seemed to relax. His mouth was open and his face flushed and turning blue. Three minutes later there was a cough and a convulsion.
At 6.21 a.m. (eleven minutes after the start),
Warden Daniel Vasquez declared Harris dead and announced the words Harris had chosen to be remembered by. Taken from the film “Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure”, they were: "You can be a king or a street sweeper. But everybody dances with the grim reaper."

David Edwin Mason became the last person to suffer death by lethal gas in California. He was executed in accordance with Procedure No. 762 at San Quentin on of August 24th, 1994 for the murders of four elderly women in 1980 and of a fellow inmate in 1982. He chose this method as he felt he deserved to suffer for his crimes. He was pronounced dead at 12:23 a.m., about 14 minutes after the cyanide pellets were dropped into the acid.

The gas chamber has now been outlawed, unless he prisoner specifically requests it, after the American Civil Liberties Union took the California Department of Corrections to court in San Francisco in 1994 on behalf of 375 condemned inmates on San Quentin's death row, saying that the gas chamber violates the U.S. Constitution's ban against cruel and unusual punishment because it inflicts needless pain and suffering.
District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ruled on October 5th, 1994 that the gas chamber is an inhumane method of punishment.
On February 21st, 1996, a three judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously upheld the ruling that gas chamber executions in California violated the 8th Amendment to the Constitution because there was a risk that an inmate could suffer "horrible pain" for up to several minutes.
"The district court's findings of extreme pain, the length of time this extreme pain lasts, and the substantial risk that inmates will suffer this extreme pain for several minutes require the conclusion that execution by lethal gas is cruel and unusual," Judge Harry Pregerson wrote. "This decision is the death knell for the gas chamber in the United States," predicted Michael Laurence, an attorney who fought to stop the use of the gas chamber.

Mississippi (4 executions).
Mississippi’s first execution after the death penalty was re-instated was that of Jimmy Lee Gray on September 2nd, 1983 at the State Prison at Parchman.
Eight minutes after the gas had been released, officials cleared the witnesses from the viewing area as Gray continued to convulse. He is reported to have gasped 11 times during this period and to have repeatedly banged his head against the steel pole behind the chair.

Edward Earl Johnson was the next to be gassed in Mississippi on May 20th, 1987. Connie Ray Evans followed on July 8th, 1987 and finally Leo Edwards Jr. on June 21st, 1989. Evans was pronounced dead 17 minutes after the cyanide pellets were dropped into the acid and Edwards around 15 minutes. Mississippi has since made lethal injection its sole method.

Nevada (1 execution).
The only person to die by lethal gas in Nevada was Jesse Bishop who was executed on October 22nd, 1979. He took nine minutes to die and was described as “like an iceman” and “as tough as nails to the end” by prison director Charles Wolff. Lethal injection is now the sole method of execution in Nevada.

North Carolina (2 executions).
North Carolina’s first modern era gas execution was carried out on June 16th, 1994 when David Lawson was put to death. On of January 30th, 1998, Ricky Sanderson was executed by lethal gas at Central Prison in Raleigh, North Carolina, for stabbing a 16 year old girl to death in 1985. Having been on death row for nearly 13 years, 38 year old Sanderson waived his right to further appeals. His last words were, "I'm dying for a deed I did and I deserve death for it and I'm glad Christ forgave me." The execution commenced at 2.01 a.m. EST and he was pronounced dead at 2:19 a.m., 18 minutes later. He died in just a pair of white boxer shorts, which is standard procedure, according to prison officials. He was seated in a wooden chair and wearing a leather mask to hide facial contortions. Lethal injection is now the sole method of execution in North Carolina.


Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Cloud » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:09 pm)

Take all the times given by the witnesses and assemble them into a table. Are the numbers all over the place, or are they more or less in agreement?

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Hannover » 5 years 4 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:33 pm)

Cloud wrote:Take all the times given by the witnesses and assemble them into a table. Are the numbers all over the place, or are they more or less in agreement?

I nominate Cloud for the task that he recommends above.

Of course, there is going to be come agreement in general times as coaching was clearly prevalent, but the bigger point, IMO, is that the gassings as alleged were simply scientifically possible.

see:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7653

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Horhug » 5 years 4 months ago (Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:23 pm)

Not forgetting, the, erm, unforgettable "testimony" of one Charles "two minutes" Sigismund Bendel, "witness" at the Bergen-Belsen trial. (and also at the Zyklon B Tesch Trial).

Carlo Mattogno wrote:
The "victims" died in two minutes; twenty minutes after the "gas chamber" was opened the men of the Sonderkommando went inside without gas masks -- since Dr. Bendel says nothing of gas masks, either -- and began to drag out the bodies:

Charles Sigismund Bendel wrote:
This went on for two minutes and then there was complete silence. Five minutes later the doors were opened, but it was quite impossible to go in for another twenty minutes. Then the Special Kommandos started work.[41]



[41] The Belsen Trial, p. 132.

Source: Two false testimonies from Auschwitz by Carlo Mattogno. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p-25_Mattogno.html



http://www.mazal.org/othertrials/belsentrial/T132.htm

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Hannover » 5 years 4 months ago (Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:31 pm)

Horhug wrote:Not forgetting, the, erm, unforgettable "testimony" of one Charles "two minutes" Sigismund Bendel, "witness" at the Bergen-Belsen trial. (and also at the Zyklon B Tesch Trial).

Carlo Mattogno wrote:
The "victims" died in two minutes; twenty minutes after the "gas chamber" was opened the men of the Sonderkommando went inside without gas masks -- since Dr. Bendel says nothing of gas masks, either -- and began to drag out the bodies:

Charles Sigismund Bendel wrote:
This went on for two minutes and then there was complete silence. Five minutes later the doors were opened, but it was quite impossible to go in for another twenty minutes. Then the Special Kommandos started work.[41]



[41] The Belsen Trial, p. 132.

Source: Two false testimonies from Auschwitz by Carlo Mattogno. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p-25_Mattogno.html



http://www.mazal.org/othertrials/belsentrial/T132.htm

Ah yes, there he is, Charles "the German method" Bendel.

He also said in court, 3/46, that groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high. When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with "the German method".

Also, Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. They also say the alleged gassings ceased 11/44.

Yet more lie management problems.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Haldan » 5 years 4 months ago (Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:45 pm)

Gassing-Times02_haldan.png

I did this chart in precisely five minutes and may have forgotten a name in this thread. This only uses their absolute lowest figure and people speaking about gassings lasting only "a few minutes" I interpreted in this case as meaning "four minutes".

I am sure this can be done a lot better, but the idea is interesting. :)

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 4 months ago (Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:13 pm)

The chart looks great. Perhaps another chart on a larger scale with references to the actual texts might still be compelling without confusing the viewers. The issue is confusing because, for example, Hilberg's own story changed substantially over the years. Also, the Vrba-Wetzler claims from the 1944 War Refugee Board Report of everyone being dead in "three minutes" is missing.

A number of revisionists have let themselves into a kind of trap (even on this forum) by excluding from their consciousness accounts of mass gassing either "instantly" (Hoesss regarding Russian POWs) or so quickly that the accounts must be bogus--to focus instead on accounts where the times-to-death seem almost reasonable. I had actually been accused of undermining myself "brilliantly" in my radio debate for dealing with the gassing claims as they really are.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby Haldan » 5 years 4 months ago (Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:21 pm)

Thank you, Mr. Berg.

I'm interested in a chart which documents the evolution of the gassing times with references, as you also suggest. But a simple bar chart with only the names of the claimants along with their claimed time is probably a lot easier for the average Joe than a pie chart with a legend - the latter would however prove interesting to compile. I will wait until more references with preferably a "lowest time" given along with a "max time" surface - most claimants appear to give us this information.
One could make two different charts, one with the lowest gassing time given and one with the highest claimed gassing time.

I hope we can assemble a lot more references as I am convinced they exist.

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Re: wanted: testimonies on the duration of Auschwitz gassing

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:23 pm)

Some references taken from Carlo Mattogno:

Janda Weiss:
“Then the gas was let into the chamber. The lungs of the victims slowly burst, and after three minutes a loud clamoring could be heard. Then the chamber was opened, and those who still showed signs of life were beaten to death.”


The reference is

HACKETT, David A. (ed.), The Buchenwald Report. Westview Press. Boulder, San Francisco, Oxford, 1995, p. 350


This passage is very confusing. Perhaps there is a problem with the translation. It seems to intend to say that people died within three minutes, except for a few who had to be beaten to death (by whom? the sonderkommando, presumably, who were able to enter the chamber immediately). But reading it literally, it says that after the gas was let in, the lungs of the victims burst - but they still kept quiet for three minutes, after which they started to clamor (burst lungs and all). Upon hearing the clamor, the Germans knew it was time to open the door - but when they did so the people inside seem to have been less active than their loud clamoring would have suggested, so there was no problem with killing the survivors.

Can anyone make sense of this? Does anyone have this in the original language?

C.S. Bendel:
“To kill a chamber full of people required 3-5 minutes.”


The reference is:

Statement by C.S. Bendel on October 21, 1945. NI-11390, p. 3.




R. Höss:
“It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber depending upon climatic conditions.”


The reference is

Sworn statement by R. Höss dated April 5, 1946. PS-3868.


Filip Mueller mentions ten minutes until silence - but suggests that is sometimes took longer.

Screenshot-29.png




Mattogno also mentions this:

In judge Sehn’s report which the judge compiled with the help of the engineer Dawidowski, it is said that “the death of the victims occurred within 3-10 minutes, depending on the concentration of the hydrogen cyanide, but to make sure the gassing went on for about 20 minutes” (Höss trial, vol. 11. p. 45).


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