A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

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Christopher Louis
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A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Christopher Louis » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:23 pm)

The other week a 'holocaust survivor' came to my childrens' school and gave a talk to all the children at the school and others who were assembled from all the surrounding local schools also. The man also gave a presentation with slides for adults in the evening at a local venue to which I attended.
I missed the beginning but I was surprised that when I came in and at the end of his talk, he mentioned a clear deceit about Robert Faurisson:
"Det han [Faurisson] sa till mig var "Tobias, du har aldrig haft din kusin Joel och alla de miljoner människor som mördades under Förintelsen har aldrig existerat". ("Tobias, you never had a cousin Joel and all the millions of people who were murdered in the holocaust have never existed")

After his presentation as people were leaving I talked to him one-to-one and diplomatically challenged him on this deceit. I did it very tactfully and politely: "You know, Faurisson does NOT deny that many Jews were killed and died during WW2" and to my surprise he admitted it immediately without any prevarication, before changing the subject.
I tactfully and respectfully tried to engage him in other aspects of his talk but then he turned his back upon me.
This gentleman is a Polish jew who was at Ravensbruck as a child of nine with his mother. Since 1948 he has been living in Sweden.
He told us that when he arrived at Ravensbruck from the Lodz ghetto in October 1944, the first thing that he saw as he came into the camp was "a large pile of female corpses":
I oktober 1944 skickades pappa iväg till fabriksbygget, medan jag och mamma skickades till Ravensbrück... ...det första som mötte oss när vi kom fram var en stor hög med kvinnolik."

He says that when the double doors were opened for them to enter the camp that was the very first thing that he could see. On an online recorded vodeo of his talk he has decribed it as "a mountain of female corpses" ("ett berg med kvinnolik"). Could this be true?
I have tried doing some research of death rates in Ravensbruck at that time, and also reading memoirs of prisoners at Ravensbruck but have found nothing yet that either confirms or denies this aspect of his testimony.
Can anybody here help?
Was there a typhus epidemic around October 1944 at Ravensbruck that would have resulted in "a mounatin of corpses"? If there were, would infected bodies of a disease epidemic be on open display positioned so as to confront new arrivals?
In the following paper it appears he was one of the 500 who arrived on October the 22nd of 1944. Though he says he was one of 297.
http://www.tau.ac.il/~agass/judith-papers/camp.pdf

The closest I have found is testimony in the book 'The Jewish Women of Ravensbrück Concentration Camp' by Rochelle G. Saidel, pg 93 which states that in the barracks for the sick, when many people died "the corpses were piled up in the washrooms." Though this was describing events in December of 1944.
If any one can help confirm or otherwise this aspect of his story I would be grateful
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance it is the illusion of knowledge." -- Daniel J Boorstin

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:09 pm)

It doesn't seem to be one of the more studied camps by revisionists. According to the Ravensbruck memorial website:
http://www.ravensbrueck.de/mgr/index.html
there were gassings at Ravensbruck in 1944 and at a nearby sanitorium. This contradicts the view of Martin Brozsat of the Munich indtitute for Contemporary History who stated in 1960 that there were no gas chambers in greater Germany during the war. Apparently Olga Wormser-Migot who studied the concentration camp system was also sceptical about these claims for Ravensbruck. As the camp is located in the former East Germany, perhaps the memorial staff aren't on message as far as gassings go. According to the USHMM there was a typhus epidemic in 1945 and crematoria.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:24 pm)

Christopher Louis:
The simplest approach is to always demand proof. These claimed "survivors" have a financial motive to lie and they love the attention their tales get them.
On Ravensbrück, Jewish 'holocaust' historian Olga Wormser-Migot remarks that there were no gas chambers at Ravensbruck:

"...the declarations on the gas chamber at Ravensbrück place the beginning of its existence in Febr. 1945, date of the arrival of those evacuated from Auschwitz, the date when the Ravensbrück detainees discovered the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz."

-Le Système concentrationnaire nazi", Le problème des chambres à gaz, p. 544)

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hohenems » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:44 pm)

Remember that if you're talking about "Greater Germany", then according to the story, there were two camps in GG that had gas chambers - Chelmno (Warthegau) and Auschwitz (Niederschlesien). Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in what anyone said or wrote in 1960, either revisionist or extemrinationist. The point of history is the process of uncovering new material.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Christopher Louis » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:00 pm)

Thanks for the answers. To his credit he doesn't claim that there were gaschambers at Ravensbruck nor does he claim that the pile of bodies were the results of gassings. He doesn't say anything about the cause of death. I myself am assuming that there were many deaths around this period and that the causes of deaths at that time in the war at Ravensbruck were related to disease and malnutrition.
My question is whether it was likely that deaths in October of 1944 could have been so great that they had a huge pile of corpses waiting for cremation at the entrance to the camp. I was hoping someone who has more knowledge (or could point me to a source) could say whether there is any record or any other eye-witness testimony that confirms this alleged "mountain of female corpses" by the camp entrance in Oct 1944. Or failing that could venture an opinion on the likelihood of such pile being left by the camp gates. I.e. were the sick barracks or crematoria near to the gates that a pile would have been left there?
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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:08 pm)

Hohenems wrote:Remember that if you're talking about "Greater Germany", then according to the story, there were two camps in GG that had gas chambers - Chelmno (Warthegau) and Auschwitz (Niederschlesien). Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in what anyone said or wrote in 1960, either revisionist or extemrinationist. The point of history is the process of uncovering new material.

Since when was 'Generalgouvernement' ever part of Greater Germany, Hohenems?
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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hohenems » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:38 pm)

Some confusion, apparently. I used "GG" to indicate "Greater Germany" not "Generalgouvernement." Wartheland (not Warthegau - my mistake) and Oberschlesien (not Nieder - again, my mistake) were both part of the Greater German Reich as of September 1939, when they were both immediately annexed to the Reich. Chelmno was in Wartheland and Auschwitz was in Oberschlesien. The other four 'death cmaps' were in the Generalgouvernment. So my point stands, I hope, with that clarification.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:51 pm)

Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no extermination camps on German soil."

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:59 pm)

Christopher Louis wrote:Thanks for the answers. To his credit he doesn't claim that there were gaschambers at Ravensbruck nor does he claim that the pile of bodies were the results of gassings. He doesn't say anything about the cause of death. I myself am assuming that there were many deaths around this period and that the causes of deaths at that time in the war at Ravensbruck were related to disease and malnutrition.
My question is whether it was likely that deaths in October of 1944 could have been so great that they had a huge pile of corpses waiting for cremation at the entrance to the camp. I was hoping someone who has more knowledge (or could point me to a source) could say whether there is any record or any other eye-witness testimony that confirms this alleged "mountain of female corpses" by the camp entrance in Oct 1944. Or failing that could venture an opinion on the likelihood of such pile being left by the camp gates. I.e. were the sick barracks or crematoria near to the gates that a pile would have been left there?

Most of the so called "eyewitnesses" / "survivors", that I know of, do falsely claim that gas chambers were in operation at Ravensbruck, it was 'proven' at Nuremburg, see:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp
In your instance I rather seriously doubt the Germans would have left diseased corpses at the camp entrance for the new labor force to encounter as they entered, your man makes zero sense in that regard. I do not doubt that inmates died of disease, as did German troops, but there were disease abatement crematory facilities and I have no information to indicate that Ravensbruck was lacking fuel at that time. Your "survivor" is lying.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 7 months ago (Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:38 pm)

Hannover wrote:
Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no extermination camps on German soil."

- Hannover


He didn't say: "there were no gas chambers on German soil."

I was at Ravensbrueck last June, they still claim (like Sachsenhausen, like Mauthausen, like Dachau, like Neuengamme) that a homicidal gas chamber was built and/or used at the camp.

"In late 1944, the SS had a gas chamber installed in a hut next to the crematorium. Between January and April 1945, 5,000 to 6,000 prisoners were murdered there. In 1991, following a request from the International Ravensbrück Committee, the site of the gas chamber was marked with a commemorative stone."

- Historical Overview and Map. Memorial Ravensbrueck
http://www.ravensbrueck.de/mgr/neu/dl/f ... glisch.pdf


Image

The commemorative stone above is just viewable on the right edge of the photo below, it sits on the ground, on the right of the sculpture of two women that stands in front of the
"The Wall of Nations." The crematorium is building with the two chimneys.

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Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:58 am)

Hohenems wrote:Remember that if you're talking about "Greater Germany", then according to the story, there were two camps in GG that had gas chambers - Chelmno (Warthegau) and Auschwitz (Niederschlesien). Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in what anyone said or wrote in 1960, either revisionist or extemrinationist. The point of history is the process of uncovering new material.


There does indeed seem to be a certain amount of literature since 1960. There is a book by Germaine Tillion from 1973, though apparently not in English, a memoir by Genevieve de Gaulle Anthonioz (niece of Charles de Gaulle), and books by Jack Morrison, Bernhard Strebel, Eva Langley-Danos, Karolin Steinke and Rochelle Saidel, the last of which has alraedy been cited above. Some of the interest seems to arise from its being a women's camp. Amongst several positive reviews on Amazon, here is an interesting negative one on the Morrison book, noting a general lack of evidence and the presence of speculation. Another review notes how photos taken by the Nazis are "refuted" by drawings hidden by prisoners! There seems then to be some space for scepticism then, but I'm not aware of any revisionist books or even articles on the subject.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:15 am)

Rabbit said:
He didn't say: "there were no gas chambers on German soil."

Oh please. Then what were these supposed 'gas chambers' there for, according to the storyline, if not to 'exterminate'?
again:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Christopher Louis » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:29 pm)

Rabbit I think is correct. The official story is no more a consistent unanimous agreement on all particulars any more than the revisionist 'position' is. The official or consensus 'story' appears to be that there were camps specifically for extermination, but that none of these were on German soil. The ones regarded as being specifically and exclusively for extermination and no other purpose are: Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno. Others are regarded as serving a dual pupose of being labour camps/prisons and alleged extermination camps. E.g. Auschwitz , Belzec and Majdanek are all regarded as being labour camps that contained 'secret' extermination areas (Auschwitz II-Birkenau being an alleged 'secret' extermination sub-camp area allthough SS Judge Konrad Morgen's Nuremburg testimony stated it was Monowitz -Auschwitz III). None of these were in Germany either.
But then the consensus story also appears to be that all/most camps had gas chambers for executions. And the weakness of this argument is - as Samuel Crowell pointed out http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres5/crowellholmes.pdf- that all camps definitely DID have chambers for gassing/disinfecting clothes and bedding for lice and to prevent the spread of disease. These may also have been designed to serve as shelters in case of a gas attack (as had happened in WW1 and which all sides were afraid the other might employ). So the existence of air-tight chambers in these camps is NOT in itself proof of any policy of gassings of internees.

Anyway, this is all a digression from my question. I am preparing a reply to the gentleman's talk which I want to present to the school children if I can get permission. It bothers me that schools are inviting someone to infect another generation with truths mixed up with half-truths and occassional lies/deceits. That is why I want to ascertain exactly what in his story is clearly dishonest. I suspect the "mountain of corpses" is a lie or an exaggeration to get an emotional reaction. It bothers me that a talk under the pretence of being about preventing 'racism' in the future, appears to me be based upon a dishonest and racist defamation of Germans of something that happened seven decades ago. PLUS a talk which only concerns itself with racism against Jews that long ago (e.g. no mention of the more relevant ongoing brutally racist policies against Palestinian Arabs by European Jews).
Last edited by Christopher Louis on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby friedrichjansson » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:55 pm)

I'm not sure if this helps, but the documentary Ravensbruck and Buchenwald does not contain any footage of corpses at Ravensbruck, just photos of prisoners working, allegations of abuse, and some pictures of the alleged victims of medical experiments. It's a case of full bore atrocity propaganda - the Buchenwald segment contains the whole lampshades and shrunken heads story - so I'm pretty sure that if such footage existed they would have shown it. Of course, this just shows that there weren't piles of bodies when the camp was captured, not that there weren't any earlier.

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Re: A pile of bodies at Ravensbruck in Oct 1944?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:20 pm)

Here are excerpts from Nuremberg which certainly, and quite falsely, portray Ravensbruck as an extermination center AND work camp, whereas Auschwitz was said to be a pure extermination center.
source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp

And yet, Marie Rubiano did not die fast enough to please the SS. So one day Dr. Winkelmann, selection specialist at Ravensbruck, entered her name in the black-list and on 9 February 1945, together with 72 other consumptive women, 6 of whom were French, she was shoved on the truck for the gas chamber.

During this period, in all the Revieren, selections were made and all patients considered unfit for work were sent to the gas chamber. The Ravensbruck gas chamber was situated just behind the wall of the camp, next to the crematory. When the trucks came to fetch the patients we heard the sound of the motor across the camp, and the noise ceased right by the crematory whose chimney rose above the high wall of the camp.

At the time of the liberation I returned to these places. I visited the gas chamber which was a hermetically sealed building made of boards, and inside it one could still smell the disagreeable odor of gas. I know that at Auschwitz the gases were the same as those which were used against the lice, and the only traces they left were small, pale green crystals which were swept out when the windows were opened. I know these details, since the men employed in delousing the blocks were in contact with the personnel who gassed the victims and they told them that one and the same gas was used in both cases.

M. DUBOST: Was this the only way used to exterminate the internees in Ravensbruck?

MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: In Block 10 they also experimented with a white powder. One day the German Schwester, Martha, arrived in the block and distributed a powder to some 20 patients. The patients subsequently -fell into a deep sleep. Four or five of them were seized with violent fits of vomiting and this saved their lives. During the night the snores gradually ceased and the patients died. This I know because I went every day to visit the French women in the block. Two of the nurses were French and Dr. Louise Le Porz, a native of Bordeaux who came back, can likewise testify to this fact.

M. DUBOST: Was this a frequent occurrence?

MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: During my stay this was the only case of its kind within the Revier but the system was also applied at the Jugendlager, so called because it was a former reform school for German juvenile delinquents.

Towards the beginning of 1945 Dr. Winkelmann, no longer satisfied with selections in the Revier, proceeded to make his selections in the blocks. All the prisoners had to answer roll call in their bare feet and ex* pose their breasts and legs. All those who were sick, too old, too thin, or whose legs were swollen with oedema, were set aside and then sent to this Jugendlager, a quarter of an hour away from the camp at Ravensbruck. I visited it at the liberation.

THE PRESIDENT:The details of the witness' e vidence as to Ravensbruck. seem to be very much like, if not the same, as at Auschwitz. Would it not be possible now, after hearing this amount of detail, to deal with the matter more generally, unless there is some substantial difference between Ravensbruck and Auschwitz.

M. DUBOST: I think there is a difference which the witness has pointed out to us, namely, that in Auschwitz the prisoners were purely and simply exterminated. It was merely an extermination camp, whereas at Ravensbruck they were interned in order to work, and were weakened by work until they died of it.

THE PRESIDENT: If there are any other distinctions between the two, no doubt you will lead the witness, I mean ask the witness about those other distinctions.

M. DUBOST: I shall not fail to do so.

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