HCN concentration used in and duration of US g.c. executions

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friedrichjansson
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Re: HCN concentration used in and duration of US g.c. execut

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:30 pm)

I'll take a moment to respond to a couple of Richard Green's statements about US gas chamber data. Green writes:

I cannot absolutely exclude the possibility that Rudolf is being honest, but one should be suspicious of his value of 0.3 to 1% cyanide concentration in US executions. Even if he can provide a source for this claim, it is questionable what the uniformity of such usage is. It is certainly no manner in which to make an estimate of LC100 (the concentration required to kill 100% of those exposed in a given time period).


He's not wrong that one should be suspicious of Rudolf's value of 3000-10000 ppm for US gas chamber executions: it is almost certainly too low. As for uniformity of usage, it's true that there is some variation, in particular because different states have gas chambers with different volumes as well as because of the difference of yields for KCN and NaCN; however the amount of cyanide seems to be pretty well standardized at 15-16 oz, although 10-12 oz was used in some early executions. As Seitz writes in her thesis

In states that use lethal gas, the design of the equipment is fairly uniform. The chair is contained in an airtight compartment with windows for accommodating witnesses viewing the procedure. A metal container is located beneath the seat of the chair, which contains one pound of cyanide pellets.


Similarly, from the introduction to Legal Executions After Statehood in Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah: A Comprehensive Registry:

The protocol for an execution by lethal gas was relatively standardized. Each state adopting lethal gas constructed an airtight chamber with windows, in which was affixed a chair with straps attached. As the moment neared, the condemned was instructed to breathe deeply when the “almond odor” fumes reached his face; when the condemned failed to follow these instruction it could result in several minutes of violent convulsions.

The executioner would place approximately fifteen ounces of potassium cyanide or sodium cyanide pellets into a container under the seat of the chair above a container of sulphuric acid and distilled water...


It's also worth noting that the LC100 is not, as Green thinks, the concentration required to kill 100% of those exposed in a given time period. As explained in this thread, it is the concentration required to provide a lethal dose to 100% of those exposed for a given time period - deaths might occur after the time period.

Green also writes:

There is no ethical way to measure precisely LC100 for humans. Even making a proper estimate based upon US gas chamber times is problematic because the concentrations used were not necessarily consistent, nor is the sample size big enough.


Again, we should ignore "LC100" whenever Green says it, since he doesn't understand what it means. What he means is that this is no way to estimate time to death. This is an astonishing statement. Gas chamber executions are exactly how you measure time to death. It's the best data you could possibly have. Of course, you have to be careful with sources for time to death in US gas chambers. Newspaper accounts should be mistrusted if they just sell the party line ("quick and painless") unless they come from eyewitnesses. Internal documents of the prisons are valuable (as in Friedberg's study), as are statements from the responsible authorities, especially when they aren't engaged in defending themselves from criticism that gas executions are too slow. Despite the limitations of the available data, US gas chamber executions are far and away the best source of information on time to death in humans exposed to high concentrations of HCN.

Green's statement that the sample size is not big enough is absurd. For example, Friedberg's study looked at 112 executions, all in California (which helps to ensure a consistent concentration). Where does Green think we're going to find a better sample? Does he think DuPont carried out experiments killing thousands of people with HCN in order to get their figure of 300 ppm?



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friedrichjansson
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Re: HCN concentration used in and duration of US g.c. execut

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 4 months ago (Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:45 pm)

Here's a table for estimating the concentrations of HCN present in US gas chamber executions. I calculated it for all the amounts of cyanides I've seen described as being used - they are 10, 12, 15, and 16 oz of NaCN; 16, possibly also 15 (I haven't seen a primary source for it) oz of KCN. The figures 10 and 12 oz of NaCN are only found in early executions - by the end of the 1930s it seems that everyone had standardized on 15 or 16 oz. The concentrations are given in mg m^-3 - divide by ~1.1 to get ppm at standard atmospheric pressure.

These are calculated on the assumption that 50% of the HCN generated by the reaction vaporizes. If this number is off than of course the concentrations will be off as well. Rudolf found that 54% vaporized with KCN; his conditions were (as discussed above) worse for vaporization than those that prevailed in US gas chambers, so the correct numbers are probably higher. On the other hand, no attempt has been made to factor in adsorption losses - these are nominal concentrations.

concentrations.png

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: HCN concentration used in and duration of US g.c. execut

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:19 pm)

FriedrichJansson's link to the Anchorage Daily News and the UPI story by Dan Lohwasser about the execution of Jimmy Lee Gray does NOT work. That complete UPI story mentioned that it took forty minutes before the intended victim was actually pronounced dead. That important fact was deleted from all other published versions of the same UPI news story.

Can anyone find an actual working link to that same story--that still works?

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Friedrich Paul Berg
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Re: HCN concentration used in and duration of US g.c. execut

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 5 years 3 months ago (Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:31 pm)

Here is a page of links about the narcotic effect of carbon monoxide which is totally absent with cyanide gas:
http://search.babylon.com/?mntrId=34c9f ... +effect%22 (new window)

Cyanide gas causes intense excruciating pain and convulsions just as FriedrichJansson showed in some of his posts on this thread. CO by contrtast causes headaches and little pain, if any. The differences are enormously important to understanding and unraveling the holocaust lunacy. When people inhale smoke from their cigarettes deeply, they often get 3-1/2 % CO and they enjoy the taste—even though such a CO concentration would certainly kill them eventually. The well known ease with which people killed themselves in their cars from CO gave support to the false idea that the same thing must have occurred with cyanide gas in Nazi gas chambers. After only a few minutes in a Nazi gas chamber, a guard would supposedly announce: "Alles schlaeft!"

Cyanide gas is, however, totally different as the true horrors of gas executions in the US have proved again and again. It is all the more reason to reject the holocaust hoax. Carbon monoxide suicide attempts in cars can be terminated easily if the victim simply opens the car door or window but thousands refuse to even make the effort;—the pain, whatever pain occurs, never seems to be all that unbearable. If the gas involved in such suicide attempts were cyanide instead, the pain would be unbearable and the intended victim would terminate their own suicide attempts. Are there any known suicides with cyanide gas? Not with cyanide salt or liquid but with cyanide gas? I can only doubt it.

No doubt, an important key to the success of the holocaust hoax is the collective memory of many people about how easy it was to commit suicide with CO from a car's exhaust or from a gas stove. But cyanide gas would have been totally different. Here we have another key to unraveling the hoax.


Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.


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