The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

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The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Engel » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:30 am)

So, just got into a "discussion" with someone who supports the mainstream view. When I pointed out the fact that the Topf coke-fired ovens at Auschwitz would not be able to cremate four bodies in 30-minutes, he rebutted with the blueprint of the larger furnace-type oven that was designed and patented by Topf in '43. (I attached that blueprint to the post.) He made the argument, that, based on the testimony of the Topf engineers, it was actually these incinerators that were installed in Auschwitz. Ignoring the fact that I showed him photos of the actual ovens, he then presented an advertisement for an animal-carcass incinerator that can apparently burn 500kg of flesh in 30-minutes.

Needless to say I was puzzled by this lack of knowledge of the operations of the concentration camps, I did a little research, and apparently the concensus of mainstream historians is that the camp ovens were indeed incinerator-like devices capable of burning one corpse after another.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/quick- ... city.shtml

Ability of crematoriums to actually cremate the numbers claimed

1. Deniers claim out that since modern cremations take about 2 hours, the number of Jews cremated at the camps must have been exaggerated.

2. As the Quick fact points out, there is a vast difference between a modern crematorium and the furnaces in the Nazi camps.

Crematoriums burn one body at a time. The body is placed in a cold furnace which normally uses natural gas or fuel oil. Once the body is in place, the furnace is fired up and allowed to reach the temperature where the remains are reduced to bones and ashes. The furnace is then allowed to cool down so that the ashes and bones can be recovered by the crematorium staff. These bones and ashes are then placed in a bone grinder (similar to a domestic coffee grinder) and reduced to a fine powder which is then delivered to the family. That process takes around two hours.

The "crematoriums" in the camps are more properly "incinerators". In these facilities the furnaces are coal or coke fired and are kept running at a high temperature all of the time. There is no need to start the heating process for every corpse. The bodies are fed into the furnace one after another - and often several corpses at one time. The design of these incinerators allow the bones and ashes of the corpses to drop through a chute of sorts where they can be recovered with shovels and tongs by the workers. There is no effort to separate the remains of one corpse from another. Such a continuous incinerating process is identical to the one used in modern Continual Burn Incinerators. A description of this process was taken from the brochure of one of the manufacturers of this type of incinerators:
In the Continual Feed process, waste is introduced into a charging hopper either manually or by an, automatic cart dumper. Then the charging hopper door is closed, the primary chamber refractory lined, gate is raised, and the waste is introduced into the primary chamber by a hydraulic ram, mechanism., Next, the burning waste is moved through the primary chamber by a charging ram and one or more, ash pushers. They move the steadily-reducing mass of waste to the end of the chamber. Then, if the, system is equipped with automatic ash removal, the ash drops through a water seal into a water, filled tank. From there it is moved by either a drag conveyor, or an ash sweep,, to a dumpster for removal from the area. In systems not equipped with the, automatic ash removal, the ash remains in the primary chamber until the system is cooled down. It is, them removed manually.

At or near capacity our continuous feed incinerators operate without auxiliary fuel. The systems, maintain precise control over the combustion process through a design which rigidly governs the, introduction of all air.

Another type of incinerator is that used for pathological materials, carcasses, etc. These have the following characteristics:
Pathological Incinerators are designed to consume Type IV waste.

This includes:

Human and animal remains, consisting of carcasses, organs and solid wastes from hospitals, laboratories, abatoirs, animal shelters and similar sources. These waste consist of up to 85% moisture and 5% incombustible solids with a heating value of 1000 BTUs per pound as fired

Unlike the starved-air systems of Continual Burn and Batch Burn Incinerators, Pathological Incinerators function on excess air. This design parameter addresses the need to evaporate the majority of the waste being destroyed, and it also permits the system to be loaded during operation without risk of an environmental upset or a disturbance in the combustion process.

Pathological Incinerator also differs from other systems in that the hearth is heated from combustion occurring within the secondary chamber which is below the primary chamber. The heated hearth allows for a better reduction of the oils and other liquids emanating from the Type IV waste.

Waste can be loaded every 15 minutes at one fourth of the hourly rated capacity. For example, a 200-pound-per-hour unit could be loaded with approximately 50 pounds of waste every 15 minutes.

Obviously the larger the furnace, the larger the incinerating capacity.

3. It is clear from this that the denier claim is false.


I must confess that I'm at a loss for words. How is someone supposed to have an adult discussion on the topic if evidence is ignored, and the circumstance changed at convenience?
Attachments
231a5e21e0.jpg
The blueprint for the high-capacity Topf incinerator.
Last edited by Engel on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Hannover » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:46 am)

How funny is this? What you are witnessing is yet another attempt to change the storyline.

The claimed "incinerator"
was never built. Topf had a patent only, The 'incinerator' was never constructed. Such is the duplicity of the 'holocaust' Industry.
note:
Sometimes there are references to the 'incineration / burning' section of a cremation oven, but that is not the same as an actual Incinerator.

The 'continual feed' claim is so bad that I'm surprised the Jewish supremacists still use it. Read on.

- Hannover

1st, from:
A fellow revisonists article about cremation

The crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau were all typical cremation ovens.
That is, they were designed to take a body (at maximum shrouded, but NOT in
a coffin) which would be inserted singly onto a kind of grill and then be
cremated by the super-heated air generated elsewhere in the oven. Even
today, cremations are carried out in this manner: the actual fire (from
whatever source) is not supposed to contact the body.

The proposed Topf patent is NOT for a cremation oven, but rather for an
incinerator. That is, you build a fire, let it develop over a period of time
(in this case, two days), and then start throwing material in it -- that is,
right on the fire -- to burn.

But you cannot apply this method to the AB crematoria because the bodies
were not thrown directly on the fire, but were burned by indirect heat, like
all cremation ovens. This simply means that the cremating bodies could not
have contributed fuel (in the form of fat) to the ongoing fire, which would
need tending on its own. And this is where the coke usage comes in.

True, there were probably attempts to put multiple bodies in the muffles.
Perhaps two or three at a time, the dimensions of these particular muffles
would not allow for more. But if it takes X to burn one body, it will take 3
X to burn three, and again, if it takes 30 minutes to reduce a body to the
size of a football, 30 minutes with three bodies will not produce three
football sized remains.

True also, the fat from burning bodies will allow the middle stage of
cremation to proceed more or less on its own. But not at the end. High heat
is required at the beginning of the cremation cycle, to ignite, and at the
end, to reduce the remainder of the body proteins (minus the burnt off fat)
to ash.

Even incinerators are not perfect thermal systems: they continue to require
fuel for burning, and not just the fuel they are burning. The most efficient
incinerators of, say, animal waste, still require external BTU's to keep
going far in excess of 3.5 kg per, say, 70 kg (hypothetical human body), and
incidentally require far more than 15 minutes per 70 kg, in fact, the going
rate for state of the art incinerators is about 40 seconds per kg, IOW, 70 x
40 / 60 = 47 minutes to INCINERATE 70 kg of remains.

CREMATIONS, as opposed to INCINERATIONS, take longer. According to the only
SCIENTIFIC data ever done on this matter, by the British Cremation Society,
it takes 40 minutes to reduce a body to bone, and another 20-30 minutes to
reduce the bone to ash. Furthermore, there is a thermal barrier to these
processes of under 40 minutes that it is not possible to go beneath (too
much heat or too little heat both turn the body to a kind of hard black
tootsie roll substance). Meanwhile, the same study says that after 30
minutes, the body can only be reduced to the size of a football.

Now this is REAL scientific data. It wasn't produced by revisionists or
exterminationists, but rather by people who do cremations for a living. Such
data obviously trumps such things as the 15 minute per body memo (which has
many odd features indicating probable forgery), or the Gusen timesheet,
which, only under a charitable interpretation can support the alleged 27
minute cremation time cited therein.

Unless someone comes up with real SCIENTIFIC data to contradict the British
Cremation Society, the real conclusions are that:

1) Bodies cannot be cremated in 15 minutes or even 30 minutes, but less than
one hour times are conceivable for incomplete multiple cremations,

2) Bodies cannot be CREMATED using 3.5 kg of coke, in fact, they cannot even
be INCINERATED using 3.5 kg of coke, although, in both cremation ovens and
incinerators, combustible material, such as fat, can assist the burning
process.

3) The real rate of burn at the Birkenau crematoria was about 500 a day.

next from:
A document on coke capacity

Hannover wrote:Yep. The absurd claim is that human fat of Jews meant less coke was needed, but they then say they were all 'skin & bones' and many were squeezed into one muffle of the crematoria. This nonsense is an attempt to make the fact that not enough coke was ever sent to Auschwitz - Birkenau to do the job, and they try a game of false facts by claiming that putting multiple corpses into an oven built for one corpse would lessen the cremation time so that the timeline of the claims can mathematically align. Typical impossible 'holocaust' science. Facts are that more than one corpse would increase the time and any fat would burn first and not add any significant 'fuel' , and it would have physically destroyed the muffles. The builder of the typhus abatement 'ovens' (SS Prufer) testified explicitly that 'only one corpse could be cremated at a time, otherwise the oven would be damaged'.

Jewish supremacists shoot themselves in the foot again with the claim that Jews were 'gassed upon arrival', therefore they could not have had time to be turned into 'skin & bones' a la the typhus victims.

Modern day, latest technology cremations require 1.5 - 2 hrs per body. WWII was from 1939-1945.

Indeed, it get's very twisted for the liars. The 'holocaust' profiteers should remember one simple fact, "Tell the truth, it's easier to remember". Clearly, they can't keep their lies straight.

- Hannover

damning threads here:
Mkk @ A fellow revisonists article about cremation
and:
Confirmed by the British cremation society
and the 'mercy killing', The Rudolf Report:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Hannover » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:02 pm)

And of course it all comes back to the absurdly alleged 'gas chambers'. The utter impossibility of the claims made about them render cremation rates irrelevant.

Also note that members of 'holocaust-history.org' have come here, debated, were utterly demolished, and have fled in a state of embarrassment. We have their posts to prove it. They don't want anyone to know this fact.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:28 pm)

During the Irving vs. Penguin & Lipstadt trial, the hoaxers attempted to pass off the 1985 report by Klaus and Christel Kunz on the Nov 4, 1942 Topf patent application as the actual application itself.

Van Pelt was reading the report to the court, when Justice Gray interrupted him saying:

"What you quote in your report does not read like a patent application. Is it a quote from the patent application?

I think you are quoting another author, are you not?

Day 11, p.163, http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcript ... ges161-165


In a documentary about the trial which featured numerous dramatisations by actors (for which hoaxer David Cesarani was the "Programme Consultant"), precisely the same subterfuge occurred. The 1985 report was presented as the actual patent application, i.e. a genuine war time document by the manufacturers of the Auschwitz crematory ovens.

You can watch the footage of this part of the documentary on this link.
http://youtu.be/wxTynzJAjtI?t=45m51s

And I've documented the hoax here:
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... rving.html
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby hermod » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 pm)

Engel wrote:So, just got into a "discussion" with someone who supports the mainstream view. When I pointed out the fact that the Topf coke-fired ovens at Auschwitz would not be able to cremate four bodies in 30-minutes, he rebutted with the blueprint of the larger furnace-type oven that was designed and patented by Topf in '43. (I attached that blueprint to the post.) He made the argument, that, based on the testimony of the Topf engineers, it was actually these incinerators that were installed in Auschwitz.


Topf engineers who were in Soviet hands at that time. They might as well have said that they were linked to the queen of England (Beria, chief of the Soviet security and secret police apparatus (NKVD) during World War II, boasted he could get anyone [under investigation] to confess they were linked to the king or queen of England. - http://books.google.be/books?id=vumgEWt ... nd&f=false).

I suppose your opponent was talking about Sander's 'testimony'. If so there are inconsistencies in that 'testimony'.

On March 21, 1946 Sander said:

Question: Did you develop a new system of crematorium ovens?

Answer: Yes, after the respective conversation between me and engineer Prüfer I had the thought of developing crematorium ovens after the assembly line system, and I took to realizing this project for mass incineration of corpses in the concentration camps.

Question: What was the functioning principle of the new type of crematorium developed by you?

Answer: The working principle of the new type for mass incineration of corpses, which I developed, amounted to introducing the corpses for incineration in the oven in a mechanized way, contrary to the old procedure, the corpses being taken there by the load of their own weight, though sliding on a fire-proof surface with an inclination of forty degrees; the corpses would fall on the grid and burn under the effect of the fire. In this the corpses themselves would be used as additional fuel.


A cremation engineer calling human corpses "additional fuel" is a nonsense. Human corpses are full of water (evaporating water requires a lot of energy). Bodies are not fuel themselves. That's why fuel (coke, gasoline, wood, etc.) must be used to cremate human corpses. If corpses could be used as fuel, I don't understand why fuel would be wasted in crematory ovens. Today's cremation societies would be very interested in that magic technology.

You've linked a nice blueprint of that magic crematory but Sander also said:

Question: When did you go over to mass production of the new cremation system?

Answer: The company Topf did not go over to producing the new crematorium developed by myself, for in November 1942 I submitted my project to the patent office in Berlin, where it was not officially registered, and my invention was put into practice only there, but I don’t know under what [Patent-] number, for this they didn’t tell me.[...]


and...

Question: Tell us about your invention of the crematorium for mass incineration!

Answer: As leading engineer of the company Topf I led the crematorium building, whose chief was Prüfer. The latter told me in 1942, the exact time I no longer remember, during a conversation about the capacity of the crematoria [plural] which had been erected at Auschwitz concentration camp, that these could not manage the number of bodies to be burned. He gave as an example that they introduced two or three corpses into the introduction openings, but the crematorium [singular] could nevertheless not take care of the workload accruing in concentration camps [plural].

Thereupon I, as a specialist in the area of heating, decided on my own initiative to build a crematorium which had a higher capacity for burning corpses.

In November 1942 I was finished with my project of a crematorium for the mass burning of corpses and submitted this project to the state patent office in Berlin.

The crematorium for mass incineration should be developed after the principle of the assembly line, and into the oven corpses should be incessantly introduced for cremation by mechanical means.

The corpses should get into the oven under the load of their own weight, falling by themselves upon the grid on a fireproof surface with an inclination of 40 degrees and burning under the effect of the fire. The corpses themselves were to serve as an additional source of fuel.

This patent could not be officially registered at the state patent office because due to the war it had a confidential character, but my invention was applied in practice, and the number [of the patent-] was communicated to me.


Or in other words, that blueprint coming from nowhere is nowhere else to be found (even not in Topf and Sons' archives). It seems we'll just have to believe Sander's words without any evidence of the existence of that magic technology using human corpses as fuel... :o
Last edited by hermod on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 6 years 5 months ago (Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:31 pm)

hermod wrote:
Topf engineers who were in Soviet hands at that time. They might as well have said that they were linked to the queen of England as well (Beria, chief of the Soviet security and secret police apparatus (NKVD) during World War II, boasted he could get anyone [under investigation] to confess they were linked to the king or queen of England. - http://books.google.be/books?id=vumgEWt ... nd&f=false).


The leader of the USSR summed up how the Soviet Union obtained confessions from innocent people:

[...] the organs of state security, outdid itself in proving the guilt of the arrested and the truth of materials which it falsified. And what proofs were offered? The confessions of the arrested, and the investigative judges accepted these “confessions.” And how is it possible that a person confesses to crimes which he has not committed? Only in one way – because of the application of physical methods of pressuring him, tortures, bringing him to a state of unconsciousness, deprivation of his judgement, taking away of his human dignity. In this manner were “confessions” acquired. [...]

Thus, Stalin had sanctioned in the name of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) the most brutal violation of socialist legality, torture and oppression, which led as we have seen to the slandering and to the self-accusation of innocent people.

- Nikita Khrushchev, February 25, 1956, speech to 20th Congress of the CPSU
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Sargeist » 6 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:51 am)

From Pressac's book, pages 91 and 101:

BW 30/44: [Microfilm 1612]
26 pages Patent for a "continuous corpse
cremation furnace"
applied for on 4th November 1942 by
Fritz Sander, a
Topf engineer, and a patent for "air-
cooled grate plates for
mechanical grate firing" applied for on
16th November 1942.
These documents were received by the
Auschwitz Museum on
17th January 1985 and came from the
Justice Ministry in Bonn.
The patent applications have nothing to do
with the Birkenau
Krematorien
but are very relevant to a
study of the firm of
Topf & Sons of Erfurt.


In order to make a continuous cremation
furnace the first idea that comes to mind is
based on the production line principle: the
corpses are put on a conveyor, pass through
a cremation furnace and emerge as ashes at
the other end. But such a system would
require moving parts operating under harsh
conditions, thus subject to rapid
deterioration. The advantage of Sander's
design is that everything takes place INSIDE
the furnace itself. The firebox is at the
bottom. The corpses are introduced at the
top, one at a time, and slowly slide down
three inclined refractory grids under their
own weight, arriving at the bottom as ashes.
No moving parts, subject to wear, for it is
the corpses themselves that move. On Figure
I, corpses are introduced at i, and slide
down inclined grids a , a1 and a2 , gradually
being consumed by the fire of the firebox n .
The ashes are collected in m and the smoke
is evacuated through p.

This patent application, which is very
generalized, concerning only the principle
of continuous cremation, may be
summarized as follows:

The dimensions of the furnace are lacking,
but it may be estimated as being about 2 m
wide, 2.5 m deep at the top and 3 m at the
base and 6 m high. If this furnace had ever
been built, there would have been serious
problems with the refractory slides q,
which could be used to stop corpses from
descending, and the inadequate number of
inspection and intervention apertures for
dealing with blockages. The scheme was
never put into practice
, one possible reason
being that such a furnace would have been
in direct competition with the creations of
Prüfer, Sander's superior.


Edit: Sorry moderator, I bolded the relevant parts in the quotations. Even Pressac admits this has never been put into practice and that it has nothing to do with Auschwitz.
Last edited by Sargeist on Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Engel » 6 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:28 am)

hermod wrote:I suppose your opponent was talking about Sander's 'testimony'. If so there are inconsistencies in that 'testimony'.


Yes, that's exactly the person, specifically, he referred to this testimony:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... _test.html

Engineer Fritz Sander testifying on March 7 1946.
Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993:

I decided to design and build a crematorium with a higher capacity. I completed this project of a new crematorium in November 1942--a crematorium for mass incineration, and I submitted this project to a State Patent Commission in Berlin.

This "Krema" was to be built on the conveyor belt principle. That is to say, the corpses must be brought to the incineration furnaces without interruption. When the corpses are pushed into the furnaces, they fall onto a grate, and then slide into the furnace and are incinerated. The corpses serve at the same time as fuel for heating of the furnaces. This patent could not yet be approved by the Main Patent Office in Berlin, because of its classification (as a state secret).

Q. Although you knew about the mass liquidation of innocent human beings in crematoriums, you devoted yourself to designing and creating higher capacity incineration furnaces for crematoriums - and on your own initiative.

A. I was a German engineer and key member of the Topf works and I saw it as my duty to apply my specialist knowledge in this way to help Germany win the war, just as an aircraft construction engineer builds airplanes in wartime, which are also connected with the destruction of human beings.


When I pointed out that it nowhere mentioned that the furnace was installed, but only designed and patented, he simply ingored the point and said I was backpedaling.

hermod wrote:Or in other words, that blueprint coming from nowhere is nowhere else to be found (even not in Topf and Sons' archives). It seems we'll just have to believe Sander's words without any evidence of the existence of that magic technology using human corpses as fuel... :o


I'm not sure if this is entirely true, because according to this Topf (exhibit?) website, the design was mentioned by in a letter from Sander to Topf.

http://www.topfundsoehne.de/cms-www/ind ... id=120&l=1

"The high demand for incineration ovens for concentration camps – which has recently become particularly apparent in the case of Auschwitz ... – has prompted me to examine the issue of whether the present oven system with muffles is suitable for locations such as the abovementioned ... In my opinion, with regard to the design of an incineration oven for the purposes of a concentration camp, the ideal solution would be an oven that could be continuously loaded and likewise operated ..., i.e. the corpses for burning would be loaded on at respective intervals – without interrupting the incineration process – and on their way through the oven would catch fire, burn, burn out and reduce to ash, and then land in the ash-chamber beneath the grate in the form of burnt-out ash. Here I am quite aware that such an oven must be regarded purely as a facility for extermination, so that concepts of reverence, the separation of ashes and emotions of any kind must be dispensed with entirely. All of this is probably the case already, however, with the operation of numerous muffle furnaces. Special war-related circumstances prevail in the concentration camps, making such methods indispensable. ... Bearing in mind the remarks I made above, it must be assumed that the authorities in question are also approaching other oven construction companies with regard to the supply of efficient, fast-functioning cremation ovens. In these companies, the question of the cheapest method of constructing such ovens for the abovementioned purposes will be examined as well. ... For this reason I consider it urgently necessary to have my suggestion patented, so that we can secure priority." (Excerpt of a letter from Fritz Sander to the Topf brothers,
14 September, 1942)


If I'm correct, the summer of '42 was also the height of the typhus epidemic, so used in context the request for a higher-capacity cremation oven would not be so far-fetched. And if I'm correct, I also notice that the letter says nothing of the ridiculous "human fuel" that Sander mentioned later. :lol:

8e22a3625f.jpg
The letter from Sander to Topf
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby hermod » 6 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:13 am)

I'm not sure if this is entirely true, because according to this Topf (exhibit?) website, the design was mentioned by in a letter from Sander to Topf.

http://www.topfundsoehne.de/cms-www/ind ... id=120&l=1

"The high demand for incineration ovens for concentration camps – which has recently become particularly apparent in the case of Auschwitz ... – has prompted me to examine the issue of whether the present oven system with muffles is suitable for locations such as the abovementioned ... In my opinion, with regard to the design of an incineration oven for the purposes of a concentration camp, the ideal solution would be an oven that could be continuously loaded and likewise operated ..., i.e. the corpses for burning would be loaded on at respective intervals – without interrupting the incineration process – and on their way through the oven would catch fire, burn, burn out and reduce to ash, and then land in the ash-chamber beneath the grate in the form of burnt-out ash. Here I am quite aware that such an oven must be regarded purely as a facility for extermination, so that concepts of reverence, the separation of ashes and emotions of any kind must be dispensed with entirely. All of this is probably the case already, however, with the operation of numerous muffle furnaces. Special war-related circumstances prevail in the concentration camps, making such methods indispensable. ... Bearing in mind the remarks I made above, it must be assumed that the authorities in question are also approaching other oven construction companies with regard to the supply of efficient, fast-functioning cremation ovens. In these companies, the question of the cheapest method of constructing such ovens for the abovementioned purposes will be examined as well. ... For this reason I consider it urgently necessary to have my suggestion patented, so that we can secure priority." (Excerpt of a letter from Fritz Sander to the Topf brothers,
14 September, 1942)


If I'm correct, the summer of '42 was also the height of the typhus epidemic, so used in context the request for a higher-capacity cremation oven would not be so far-fetched. And if I'm correct, I also notice that the letter says nothing of the ridiculous "human fuel" that Sander mentioned later. :lol:


Can we rely on that translation? I haven't found the words "Ausrottungseinrichtung", "Vernichtungsanlage" or "Anlage zur Vernichtung" for "facility for extermination" in the linked letter.

Assuming that letter is not a forgery (something very easy to make when you capture your enemy's headed papers, typewriters, stamps, etc.), anyway it looks like a simple request for more efficient ovens. Nothing indicates that request was agreed by the Topf brothers and even less patented and implemented. We don't even know where that extraordinary oven was supposed to be located. The Soviets liberated 8,000 'witnesses' but none of them was apparently impressed enough by that facility to indicate its precise location in the camp. Weird. :?
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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Engel » 6 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:03 am)

hermod wrote:Assuming that letter is not a forgery (something very easy to make when you capture your enemy's headed papers, typewriters, stamps, etc.), anyway it looks like a simple request for more efficient ovens. Nothing indicates that request was agreed by the Topf brothers and even less patented and implemented. We don't even know where that extraordinary oven was supposed to be located. The Soviets liberated 8,000 'witnesses' but none of them was apparently impressed enough by that facility to indicate its precise location in the camp. Weird. :?


This is more or less what I believe, there isn't a single document or even witness to these incinerators, and all the photos show the front-loaded ovens, but I'm sure the inmates were far to transfixed with the 6-foot flames shooting out of the chimneys :) . I must be naive though, I really didn't expect Exterminationists to pull nonsense "facts" out of thin air, completely contrary to what little "evidence" they have. I am curious however, as to how an animal-corpse incinerator manages to process 500kg of flesh in an hour. I would assume that the process would be similar to human cremation as far as function, and the variables such as moisture would remain the same, but I'm by-far no expert on the subject and gladly welcome an informed opinion.

http://www.inciner8.com/IncineratorA2600.htm

Model A2600 Incinerator

NEW - Burn rates up to 500kgs per hour

Ease of Use

Auto ignition. No pilots to light. Set the timer and walk away.

Built-in skid facilitates placement
Fuel Efficiency

Rapid incineration means low fuel consumption.

Higher burn rate than smaller models.

Thick refractory lining in main chamber retains heat, increasing efficiency.
Quality Built to Last

Heat resistant aluminized steel.

Stainless steel stack.
The Benefits of Incineration...

SANITARY - Waste can be destroyed as fast as it accumulates. Nothing is left to spread disease or to attract rodents and flies.

CONVENIENT - Fill the chamber and turn on the burner. No watching required since timer automatically shuts down burner. Alternative methods frequently require more time to manage and maintain.

THOROUGH - Leaves only sterile white ash and brittle bone fragments. Reduces up to 1200kg of waste to approximately 35kg of sterile residue.


A2600+_cleansm.jpg
Model A2600 Incinerator


It seems like a possible counter-claim to the impossibility of cremating 400lbs in 30-minutes. If I'm correct, Ivan Legace testified during the second Zundel trial that his crematory, the hottest in North America, could cremate a body in an hour-and-a-half, so I'm a little confused on the matter.
"The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us." - Joseph Goebbels

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby hermod » 6 years 5 months ago (Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:11 pm)

Engel wrote:
hermod wrote:It seems like a possible counter-claim to the impossibility of cremating 400lbs in 30-minutes. If I'm correct, Ivan Legace testified during the second Zundel trial that his crematory, the hottest in North America, could cremate a body in an hour-and-a-half, so I'm a little confused on the matter.


Ivan Lagace talked about crematories for human corpses. Crematory ovens for human corpses operate at about 850°C. The incinerator you've mentionned operates at about 1,100 or 1,200°C (min: 950°c - max: 1,320°c). The higher the operating temperature, the faster the incineration. Nothing suprising. Think about nuclear bombs: millions of degrees Celsius, nearly instant cremation.



"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby ginger » 6 years 5 months ago (Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:44 pm)

Thanks for the information on this topic. I was first made aware of this sophistry after watching NOVA the Holocaust on Trial on YouTube.

At about 40 minutes into the film we hear David Irving assert that large numbers of corpses would require mountains of fuel to cremate. We then hear Van Pelt read from a patent application saying that a glass-full of fuel could dispose of a corpse. Van Pelt's argument was persuasive; however, It was not made clear that Van Pelt was talking about incinerating bodies, not cremating. them.

I'm glad for this film NOVA the Holocaust on Trial. It stands as a good example of the poor thinking of historians like Van Pelt, and perhaps the intentional misrepresenting of the facts. The film is an easy target for revisionists.

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Engel » 6 years 5 months ago (Sat May 04, 2013 10:18 am)

hermod wrote:Ivan Lagace talked about crematories for human corpses. Crematory ovens for human corpses operate at about 850°C. The incinerator you've mentionned operates at about 1,100 or 1,200°C (min: 950°c - max: 1,320°c). The higher the operating temperature, the faster the incineration. Nothing suprising. Think about nuclear bombs: millions of degrees Celsius, nearly instant cremation.


Definitely makes sense, I also assume that human crematories are unable to reach certain extreme temperatures die to their designs; namely, brick and mortar. I'm sure an aluminum incinerator is capable of higher temperatures before being damaged than a brick oven.

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know where I can find photocopies of the original blueprints for the ovens/crematoria for future reference? It'd be much appreciated, thanks.
"The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us." - Joseph Goebbels

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby hermod » 6 years 5 months ago (Sat May 04, 2013 6:24 pm)

Engel wrote:Definitely makes sense, I also assume that human crematories are unable to reach certain extreme temperatures die to their designs; namely, brick and mortar. I'm sure an aluminum incinerator is capable of higher temperatures before being damaged than a brick oven.


That's right. The fragile refractory bricks of the human crematories would be severely damaged by too high temperatures and the crematory ovens should be stopped in order to replace those damaged refractory bricks.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: The Ovens in the Camps are Incinerators Now

Postby Hannover » 6 years 5 months ago (Sat May 04, 2013 10:11 pm)

Not to get away from the 'incinerator' canard discussed in the OP, but here is some cutting information from another thread which is relevant.

- Hannover

from:
Hannover @ A fellow revisonists article about cremation
Hannover wrote: As for cremation capacity, SS Prufer, who was the builder of the typhus abatement ovens at Auschwitz which were heavily used during the well known huge epidemics, stated:
I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain.
So there goes the multiple cremations per muffle.
and:
There is a genuine, original document from the Nuremberg trials.
It stated that 840,000 Russian POW's where killed in Sachenhausen and then the Germans cremated them in 4 portable ovens.
calculation :
Experts in the business say it takes at least 1.5 hour to cremate one body today. Then it's 840,000 bodies x 1.5 hour =1,260,000 hours / 24 hours = 52,200 days / 365 days = 143.8 years / 4 ovens = 35.95 years, if the Germans where running it 24 hours per day. And people wonder why there's questions about the so called 'holocau$t'!! -Ref: IMT VII page 586
and:
The Auschwitz ‘witnesses’ Dov Paisikovic, states that the cremation of one body took about four minutes!
-Léon Poliakov, Auschwitz, René Julliard, Paris 1964, p. 159 ff. Is he a liar?
and:
Henryk Tauber, an alleged crematorium worker is considered vital to the standard 'holocaust' story. Here are a few of his assertions:
- Tauber testified to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945 that 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau. An utter impossibility given the crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau.

- Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 7-9 minutes, an impossibility today, let alone with 1940s technology.

- Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from open air cremations. Impossible, the fat would have ignited.

- Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with this human fat that flowed from the burning corpses. (same as above)

- Tauber testified that he inserted & cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke . Physically impossible.

- Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle." A lie, there were no "calculations and plans" in the records which would have reflected this.
and:
Prufer again:
SS Kurt Prufer, told the officers of SMERSCH (according to documents found in the Moscow archives) that only one body at a time could be cremated per muffle and that the cremation time took 60 minutes, and that they tried to cremate 2 bodies at a time; but the temperature inside the muffle went so high that it damaged the oven.
and:
- There was a total 52 muffles of Auschwitz, never used simultaneously.

- 38 is the most that were ever online simultaneously.

- The 6 at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau came online. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

- If there was a program of mass extermination, the desperate need for cremation capacity is obvious. Why then put six muffles out of action?

- In August 1942, at the main camp, 9000 prisoners died. According to Believer & profiteer John Zimmerman, Auschwitz I would have had a cremation capacity of about 4,680 per month (26 per muffle daily on average, as at Gusen).
So the cremation capacity was about half of what it needed to be during the typhus epidemic.
At the same time, the camp was planned to hold an eventual inmate population of 200,000 (a seven-fold increase from August 1942, at less than 30,000).
Therefore, in August 1942, the very month that 'Auschwitz expert' van Pelt claims the homicidal adaptation of the crematoria was initiated, the Auschwitz Bauleitung authorities should have requested a crematoria construction program which should have produced capacities almost 14 times greater than the 6 muffles of Auschwitz I at the time. In 1943, when the camp population reached about 140,000, the number of muffles was just over 6 times greater than August 1942, because Crematorium IV broke down and was not repaired (mothballed) and Crematorium I at the main camp was converted into an air-raid shelter. There were 38 muffles.

- Why use exactly the same cremation techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution? More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used for years in many countries, including my own. For the purpose the SS should naturally have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find.

- If the extermination myth was true, the SS must from the start have had some idea of how many victims were to be gassed and burned. It's a simple matter of math, and then naturally founded on estimates made by the constructors, in this case Topf & Söhne. Why then not build the installations required. It doesn't make sense.

- There are no human remains to support the storyline.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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