Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

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Cayer
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Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Cayer » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 7:18 am)

Hello,

The National Association of Forensic Historians ( http://www.nafcash.com ), with a subheading claiming that it is "Using skeptical inquiry and forensics to prove historical and archaeological fraud", makes the following claim:

It is a forensically proven fact that not so-much-as one actual grave has ever been located / proven to exist at
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.


Is that statement true?

I have challenged Greg Gerdes about certain statements and claims found on the N.A.F.H. site and will post parts of our email conversations here. But I would like to hear what others think about the above claim first.

Thank you for your input.

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borjastick
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 9:06 am)

Bazinga as far as Treblinka is concerned. Are you a beginner to the subject or just to this forum? Welcome in any case. There is much to read on the subject and Treblinka from the traditional point of view is a laugh a minute in crazy claims and stupid witness reports that simply fall apart.

Anyway welcome.
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 12:45 pm)

Cayer wrote:Hello,

The National Association of Forensic Historians ( http://knsl.net/23688 ), with a subheading claiming that it is "Using skeptical inquiry and forensics to prove historical and archaeological fraud", makes the following claim:

It is a forensically proven fact that not so-much-as one actual grave has ever been located / proven to exist at
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1% - of the alleged buried bodies.


Is that statement true?

I have challenged Greg Gerdes about certain statements and claims found on the N.A.F.H. site and will post parts of our email conversations here. But I would like to hear what others think about the above claim first.

Thank you for your input.

Gerdes does tend to go over the top and in doing so doesn't do Revisionism any favours. 1/1000 of 1 % is just 8 bodies as far as Treblinka is concerned.

However, as Gerdes is banned from this forum, it is perhaps a bit unfair to to criticise him where he can't defend himself.

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 1:38 pm)

Kingfisher whilst I agree that Greg is a bit OTT he makes a very strong case against all that is claimed to have happened at Treblinka. In any case your maths assume the claims of 800k deaths are correct, which they are not.
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Moderator » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 2:13 pm)

I've 'unbanned' Gerdes. Hopefully he'll be nice.

edit:
Check that, he had already been 'unbanned'.
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby hermod » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 13, 2013 7:40 pm)

Cayer wrote:Hello,

The National Association of Forensic Historians ( http://knsl.net/23688 ), with a subheading claiming that it is "Using skeptical inquiry and forensics to prove historical and archaeological fraud", makes the following claim:

It is a forensically proven fact that not so-much-as one actual grave has ever been located / proven to exist at
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.


Is that statement true?


If you can't believe the meticulous Germans would have dug such mass graves (see below), that statement is true.

Image
Plan of the 2000-2001 excavations at Sobibór

Abstract art was apparently not forbidden in all areas under German rule. :)

Anyway excavations shouldn't be needed to locate mass graves. For instance the Belsen mass graves are still perfectly visible on aerial photos today (https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=52.7578 ... .kml&hl=en).
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue May 14, 2013 2:05 am)

borjastick wrote:Kingfisher whilst I agree that Greg is a bit OTT he makes a very strong case against all that is claimed to have happened at Treblinka. In any case your maths assume the claims of 800k deaths are correct, which they are not.


It's 8 bodies based on the claims, which is what I and GG both meant. My point is finding 8 bodies shouldn't be too difficult, and we should not be prepared to stake any arguments on that not happening. It's a hostage to fortune. Thomas Kues has argued that many thousands may have died in transit and be buried there without that giving any support to the "Death Camp" thesis.

It's good to publicise GG's claims, though he would be more successful if he could present them a bit ore calmly.

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby borjastick » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue May 14, 2013 3:09 am)

Kingfisher I agree with you that there may have been some deaths in transit and they could have been buried at the camp, though I have never seen any conclusive proof of the numbers supposedly processed to or through Treblinka, have you? I doubt some figures of natural deaths there being as high as 100,000.

As discussed here on another thread the camp was most likely a transit camp, indeed there is little evidence of it being anything else. The clear proof to my tiny little mind, of a cover up in order to preserve the claims of Treblinka, is the almost blanket concreting over of the key areas on site.
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Hannover » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue May 14, 2013 9:10 am)

borjastick wrote:Kingfisher I agree with you that there may have been some deaths in transit and they could have been buried at the camp, though I have never seen any conclusive proof of the numbers supposedly processed to or through Treblinka, have you? I doubt some figures of natural deaths there being as high as 100,000.

As discussed here on another thread the camp was most likely a transit camp, indeed there is little evidence of it being anything else. The clear proof to my tiny little mind, of a cover up in order to preserve the claims of Treblinka, is the almost blanket concreting over of the key areas on site.
Borjastick has this wired, almost.
Revisionists all too frequently get weak in the knees and make concessions when concessions are not warranted. Let's call it 'throwing them a bone', But why do it when there is no excavated proof?

Kingfisher:
Thomas Kues has argued that many thousands may have died in transit and be buried there without that giving any support to the "Death Camp" thesis.
Exactly.
"May have died"? This is an alleged crime, "may" just doesn't stand up. Why throw them a bone when there is no reason to? "Many thousands"? The 'holocaust Industry' could do well with just finding "many thousands". They could allege it is just a sample, blah, blah. But guess what .... there are no "thousands" to be shown. And frankly, I doubt if there are 'hundreds'.

Insist on proof for everything, no concessions.

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 8 months ago (Tue May 14, 2013 4:37 pm)

Hannover wrote:Kingfisher:
Thomas Kues has argued that many thousands may have died in transit and be buried there without that giving any support to the "Death Camp" thesis.
Exactly.
"May have died"? This is an alleged crime, "may" just doesn't stand up. Why throw them a bone when there is no reason to? "Many thousands"? The 'holocaust Industry' could do well with just finding "many thousands". They could allege it is just a sample, blah, blah. But guess what .... there are no "thousands" to be shown. And frankly, I doubt if there are 'hundreds'.

Insist on proof for everything, no concessions.

- Hannover


There is no concession. There is no "bone". Quite the opposite. It's pre-empting the possibility they might come up with a few graves, by saying that that would in no way be evidence for mass murder. If the transit camp theory is true some deaths en route are probable and if the numbers in Korherr and Hoefle are correct (I'm not saying they are or they aren't) that number could be quite high. All consistent with transit, hence pre-emptive. We have no idea what's actually there because they won't look.

We've been through this in another thread.

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Cayer » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed May 15, 2013 8:42 am)

This thread seems to have taken off in a direction I didn't expect. I'm interested in knowing if anyone here challenges this statement found on The National Association of Forensic HIstorians webste:

It is a forensically proven fact that not so-much-as one actual grave has ever been located / proven to exist at
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies
.

I would like to add that the website is very clear that "1 / 1,000 of 1 %" corresponds to 19 bodies: http://www.nafcash.com

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby The Warden » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed May 15, 2013 3:05 pm)

Greg Gerdes has so many hoops to jump through, no one has ever even tried other than Roberto Muehlenkamp. One of the stipulations of the NAFH challenge is to have it backed by Shermer of Skeptic Magazine, who was never even approached about it, and wants nothing to do with it. The fact that Shermer won't back any of Roberto's attempts says more about Roberto than it does about Shermer or Gerdes, but the whole lot of them are one sandwich short of a picnic.
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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed May 15, 2013 3:53 pm)

I'm doing this from memory, so if anyone wants to fill in the blanks, please do.

There was a survey done by some Pole at Belzec about 10-12 years ago, but it produced so little it more or less died a death. It did claim to have found some human remains, though nothing on the scale of the orthodox story. Whether they proved their claim I can't say. The Belzec book in the Holocaust Handbooks series by Mattogno goes into it in some detail. You can download it here. http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/b/

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Cayer » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 20, 2013 7:56 am)

So no member of the codoh forum challenges this statement found on The National Association of Forensic HIstorians webste:

It is a forensically proven fact that not so-much-as one actual grave has ever been located / proven to exist at
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka that contains so-much-as - 1 / 1,000 of 1 % - of the alleged buried bodies.


My next question then is:

Are there any untrue statements made anywhere on the N.A.F.H. site?

http://www.nafcash.com

A request: Can we stay on topic here and leave the personal attacks out of this?

Thanks

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Re: Fact Checking The N.A.F.H.

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 8 months ago (Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 am)

Cayer

I referred you to Mattogno's book on Belzec for a rundown on the Polish investigation there and what Mattogno makes of it. Chapter IV: Belzec in Polish Archeological Research (1997 to 1999)....... page 71


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