Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

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red
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Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby red » 7 years 4 months ago (Sun May 26, 2013 3:49 am)

Ok I am not and expert of photography but I think this photo is fake.

I just put it through some fake photo detection software to see what would happen.

It shows the outline of a lot of soldiers watching some other germans shoot at some type of shooting practise. It does not show the woman and child getting shot? They look to be doctored out but the light effects are still there. The soldiers have the same hats in the shadows as the guy shooting...

Have a look yourselves. Maybe this is known?

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?i ... e3b6.17179

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 4 months ago (Sun May 26, 2013 10:06 pm)

According to the Error level Analysis (ELA) section, the technology is designed to detect digital manipulation through different compression levels, which is different from the collage techniques that Udo Walendy claims were used to create the original image. If collage were used to create the original (or originals), it follows that by the time the image was digitalized for the first time, the alleged fakery would already be there. Hence the software would probably not detect it.

Frankly I am not sure what the second image below the sepia one is supposed to convey. I think the image is fake though. The woman and soldier cast no shadows and the woman's feet don't touch the ground. Walendy considers it in Forged War Crimes Malign the German Nation and there is a cropped version in Goldhagen's Willing Executioners (page 407).

[CORRECTION: On checking, I find that this Is not one of the purported photos dealt with in Walendy's book. However, the analytic techniques he discusses are highly relevant to it and to the general class of images to which it belongs. Apologies. - EtienneSC]
Last edited by EtienneSC on Mon May 27, 2013 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Breker » 7 years 4 months ago (Sun May 26, 2013 10:49 pm)

Lovely discussion about this one and others in this thread.
link: On a Selection of Powerful East European Holocaust Photograp

Fully cropped, used frequently.
Image
Left side is cropped.
Image
Left side is uncropped.
Image
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 5:02 am)

I've read a lot of the discussion round this and I think there is a good chance it is a fake, but what does it matter? Even if if it's 100% genuine and the soldier really did shoot the woman, what does it say about the Holocaust? Does anyone seriously suggest that at no time throughout the entire war did a soldier in German uniform (or any other uniform) kill a civilian?

It's not worth wasting your time on things that prove nothing anyway and distract from the issue.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby sweetie pie » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 11:12 am)

I couldn't disagree more with kingfisher. A "good chance" it is fake? It is so obvious that all the figures are too sharply outlined in the landscape--like cut-outs--for this to be an authentic photograph. Plus the whole scene is ludicrous. Further, saying it does not matter and that it is a waste of time and distraction to discuss photo-fakery is--to me--the same as saying let's leave in place all the Nazi-brutality images and stories, and just try to get rid of gas chambers and reduce the 6 million number. After that, revisionism is done.

[Irrelevant, accusatory text removed by Moderator, main body of post was not edited, if the originator disapproves I will remove the entire post. M1]

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Hannover » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 11:21 am)

I agree with sweetie pie. These fakes are part & parcel to the absurd and impossible story line. They have become icons for the Big Lie. It's important to expose each and every one of them.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby sweetie pie » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 11:55 am)

Thanks, Hannover. And to M1, I don't mind that you removed the last part of my post. What is there is fine.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Turpitz » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 12:03 pm)

When you have no bodies or physical evidence to supplement a lie, there is no other option than to churn out hastily conceived paperwork. The fundamentals of the lie simply cannot be forged, only the superficial aspects. Of course, this is all well and good for those that are of a docile and impressionable persuasion amongst the mass. Those that are more inclined to persevere for evidence and not be bought off by this paper fodder, must then be persecuted and physically assaulted as a drastic, final measure.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby friedrichjansson » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 12:34 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:I've read a lot of the discussion round this and I think there is a good chance it is a fake, but what does it matter? Even if if it's 100% genuine and the soldier really did shoot the woman, what does it say about the Holocaust? Does anyone seriously suggest that at no time throughout the entire war did a soldier in German uniform (or any other uniform) kill a civilian?

It's not worth wasting your time on things that prove nothing anyway and distract from the issue.


This might be correct were the holocaust merely a collection of propositions, whose truth was to be determined in the logical sphere alone. It is not. It is first and foremost a Sorelian myth; a mechanism of power. Unmasking such forgeries is not primarily a matter of the logical refutation of a factual assertion. More centrally, it is a desacralization and desecration of religious symbols. It is a holding up to ridicule of the idols of the holocaust, and it is enormously powerful in terms of its symbolism. According to the enlightenment conception of rational man this kind of thing might be a distraction, but the enlightenment conception of rational man is wrong, and this kind of thing has a necessary part to play in the destruction of the holocaust myth.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 1:59 pm)

sweetie pie wrote:I couldn't disagree more with kingfisher. A "good chance" it is fake? It is so obvious that all the figures are too sharply outlined in the landscape--like cut-outs--for this to be an authentic photograph. Plus the whole scene is ludicrous. Further, saying it does not matter and that it is a waste of time and distraction to discuss photo-fakery is--to me--the same as saying let's leave in place all the Nazi-brutality images and stories, and just try to get rid of gas chambers and reduce the 6 million number. After that, revisionism is done.

[Irrelevant, accusatory text removed by Moderator, main body of post was not edited, if the originator disapproves I will remove the entire post. M1]


I don't know why I should bother to answer someone who includes "irrelevant, accusatory text", but here goes anyway.

On the first point, I think it looks like a fake for much the same reasons as you,s o there's no real disagreement. Your certainty and my probability.

On the second, I didn't say it's a waste of time to discuss photo-fakery, but I don't regard this picture as particularly fruitful as it would prove nothing if it were true. It's a diversion of effort and attention from the essentials.

You'll probably disagree with me on this too, but I see a parallel with the Ann Frank diary. So much Revisionist effort into proving it's a fake (which it probably is) doesnt get through to the public who hold the accusation against Revisionists. Ann Frank's life and death however, along with those of her family members, fit perfectly with a Revisionist interpretation of events and zilch to support the official legend. Most of the general public even think she was gassed at Auschwitz.

If you are interested in continuing this discussion in a friendly manner with a view to improving understanding then so am I. But argument that generates more heat than light I can find aplenty on YouTube. It's not what I come here for.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 2:18 pm)

friedrichjansson wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:I've read a lot of the discussion round this and I think there is a good chance it is a fake, but what does it matter? Even if if it's 100% genuine and the soldier really did shoot the woman, what does it say about the Holocaust? Does anyone seriously suggest that at no time throughout the entire war did a soldier in German uniform (or any other uniform) kill a civilian?

It's not worth wasting your time on things that prove nothing anyway and distract from the issue.


This might be correct were the holocaust merely a collection of propositions, whose truth was to be determined in the logical sphere alone. It is not. It is first and foremost a Sorelian myth; a mechanism of power. Unmasking such forgeries is not primarily a matter of the logical refutation of a factual assertion. More centrally, it is a desacralization and desecration of religious symbols. It is a holding up to ridicule of the idols of the holocaust, and it is enormously powerful in terms of its symbolism. According to the enlightenment conception of rational man this kind of thing might be a distraction, but the enlightenment conception of rational man is wrong, and this kind of thing has a necessary part to play in the destruction of the holocaust myth.

I can see your point, Friedrich, and I accept it to a large extent. But precisely because the public become emotionally, religiously, attached to these pictures that become iconic images, it can be counter-productive to attack them unless your debunking is totally convincing, in which case it can change minds. There is precisely the same religious attachment to them as there is to the Big H. If you do not succeed in totally convincing them (Joe Public, not fellow-revisionists) you can reinforce their prejudices and their negative image of Revisionists as people who sully their holy symbols. That's my concern.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 2:22 pm)

Hannover wrote:I agree with sweetie pie. These fakes are part & parcel to the absurd and impossible story line. They have become icons for the Big Lie. It's important to expose each and every one of them.

- Hannover

See my reply to Friedrich. We are agreed on the religious attachment.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby sweetie pie » 7 years 4 months ago (Mon May 27, 2013 2:57 pm)

I don't know why I should bother to answer someone who includes "irrelevant, accusatory text", but here goes anyway.


In the opinion of the moderator only. I did not think it to be either irrelevant or accusatory or I wouldn't have put it there. But there's no arguing with the Mod. Now, I think your reply to me has plenty of irrelevant and accusatory prose, but it passed. So it goes on forums.

On the first point, I think it looks like a fake for much the same reasons as you,s o there's no real disagreement. Your certainty and my probability.

If you are interested in continuing this discussion in a friendly manner with a view to improving understanding then so am I. But argument that generates more heat than light I can find aplenty on YouTube. It's not what I come here for.


I think there is disagreement. How things are worded is very important, psychologically. I have nothing further to add to what I already said.

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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby borjastick » 7 years 4 months ago (Tue May 28, 2013 1:22 am)

What Kingfisher is saying here makes sense in as much as we should choose which battles to fight very carefully. Why argue endlessly about a picture, in this case, which furthers the revisionist cause perhaps only a step or two.

The particular photo in question can be interpreted a number of ways but on balance it is almost certainly a fake.

We are all free to choose which aspects of the holocaust we focus on and direct our activity towards, I like to learn and read here and then apply logic and reason to the education of the traditionalists on youtube, where it can be fun as well.
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Re: Famous Atrocity Photo a Fake - Detected by Software

Postby sweetie pie » 7 years 4 months ago (Tue May 28, 2013 8:40 am)

borjastick wrote:What Kingfisher is saying here makes sense in as much as we should choose which battles to fight very carefully. Why argue endlessly about a picture, in this case, which furthers the revisionist cause perhaps only a step or two.

The particular photo in question can be interpreted a number of ways but on balance it is almost certainly a fake.

We are all free to choose which aspects of the holocaust we focus on and direct our activity towards, I like to learn and read here and then apply logic and reason to the education of the traditionalists on youtube, where it can be fun as well.


Argue endlessly, borjastick? There is actually no argument that it is fake, only how helpful it is to reveal fakes. Is that not an important question to clarify?

You say "We should choose which battles to fight very carefully." Who is "we?" AFAIK, there is no "we" deciding how to do this. (I almost wish there was a more concerted, agreed-upon approach.) Then you say "We are all free to choose which aspects we want to focus on." These seem to be mutually exclusive statements.


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