Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

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Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby hermod » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:03 pm)

We all know that the Holocaust myth is mainly supported by alleged 'eyewitness testimonies'. But have 'eyewitness testimonies' any probative value if not substantiated by physical evidence?

"The consequence of the absence of any overt documentary evidence of gas chambers at these camps, coupled with the lack of archaeological evidence, means that reliance has to be placed on eye witness and circumstantial evidence." - Justice Gray, Irving-Lipstadt trial, 2000

"For the scientific historian a witness statement does not represent real history" - French historian Jacques Baynac

it is necessary to recognize that the lack of traces involves the inability to directly establish the reality of the existence of homicidal gas chambers.” - French historian Jacques Baynac

"Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable. [...] Most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders." - Professor Arno J. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken, p. 362

Here under is a short clip on belief in elves and trolls in Iceland. It's said an Icelandic scholar collected hundreds of 'testimonies' of people claiming they've seen elves and trolls with their own eyes? Should I believe in elves and trolls because of those 'eyewitness testimonies'? :lol:



And how many millions of 'eyewitness testimonies' 'proving' the existence of alien abductions, witchcraft, big foots, "Nessie", dragons, or any other imaginary things?
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby ganglere » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:39 am)

Good morning ladies and gentlemen!

I see your point, in no normal murder inquiry, would witness statements be judged sufficient, especially so if the witnesses are contradicting one another, and on occasion themselves.

"Some things are true, even if they have never happened" (Elie Weisel). :?:

As for Icelandic belief in trolls, et.cetera, I fail to see any harm in that, but with regards to the "Holocaust" it has the most dire consequences for the entire world in general, and the Palestinian people in particular .

Humbly yours,

Ganglere

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:41 pm)

It's relevant in this context, to mention also millions of eyewitnesses and statements about ufo's. Not the statements alone, but also thousands of photographs from all over the world, taken at unknown and unexpected times and places. Those witnesses have no political agenda, no financial, societal or other goals and above all, no hate.

'Gas Chamber' statements are usually selectively written down, by people who are arch enemy's of the accused, mostly under standardized and controlled circumstances (exit interviews), huge pressure and after some span of time.
'Witnesses' in Holocaust courts, were (are) usually trained and instructed in advance to tell the same stories, to be silent about others, etc., in order to bring the judges to the verdicts (and 'proofs'!) wished for.
Last but not least, not one 'gas chamber witness' is ever persecuted for perjury, notwithstanding how impossible and/or absurd their testimonies were, a fact that is pleasantly known by all so called Holocaust 'witnesses'.
To make the case of 'Gas Chamber testimonies' complete, it is (God forbid) forbidden to present any evidence against the existence of 'Gas Chambers' (Beweisverbot).

Holocaust promotors nowadays admit there exist no concrete evidence for 'Gas Chambers'. They resort to their fraudulous "convergence of evidence", which means, if more than two circumstances ('indications', not proofs) 'converge', then there is 'evidence'. :roll: Someting like 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 1, or two times acquitted is also guilty.

To be short: if there exists no concrete evidence for whatever accusation, no testimony or declaration can be taken as proof, irrespective be it one 'witness' or a hundred thousand (ufo's). If so, it's really time to reinstall the Inquisition, stakes for witch-hunting and burning heretics and "Holocaust deniers".

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby hermod » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:52 pm)

ganglere wrote:As for Icelandic belief in trolls, et.cetera, I fail to see any harm in that, but with regards to the "Holocaust" it has the most dire consequences for the entire world in general, and the Palestinian people in particular .


No harm at all. I find Icelandic belief in trolls rather charming.

Many people are very impressed by the tears of 'Holocaust survivors' and by their horrific tales. I only wanted to show that there exists many 'witnesses' of all kinds of things and that their 'testimonies' - even if numerous or very numerous - prove nothing regarding the reality of the things those 'witnesses' say they've seen with their own eyes.

Humans are very imaginative creatures and their words are only words with no probative value. Eastern jews are well-know natural-born storytellers and their words are often tales, fables. Many 'Holocaust witnesses' are patent liars. But some of them really believed in what they tell. Mix separated families, mass deportations, war casualties, titanic typhus epidemics and their great death tolls, big crematories, delousing gas chambers and the chaos of the greatest war ever seen and you're not surprised anymore if a few jewish storytellers really believed in their own stories about huge homicidal gas chambers, mass cremations, et cetera. Add the Zionist, Allied and Soviet political agendas and those stories quickly became the victors' official truth.
Last edited by hermod on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:03 am)

Friday, April 15, 2011
Holocaust "eye-witness" whoppers


The below rubbish is so patently untrue, yet if one was to declare, in
Germany, one did not believe it, one would be hurled in the slammer


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - "eyewitness" Wiernik claimed:
1200 people fit into a 7 X 7 m gas chamber, bodies of women were used for kindling, bodies burned on their own once lit, he saw a naked Jewish girl jump a 3m (9 ft.) high fence & shoot two guards, that 900,000 Jews were gassed..buried..exhumed..cremated & all traces disappeared, a Russian diesel tank engine was used for gassings. Wiernik also claimed he saw a naked Jewish girl leap over a three-meter (9 ft.) high barbed wire fence, wrench the rifle out of the hands of a pursuing guard, shoot two other guards before she was overpowered.


- in court, 3/46, Charles Bendel said groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high. When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with 'the German method'.


- Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. They also say the alleged gassings ceased 11/44. Once again, they can't keep their lies straight


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - An "eyewitness" stated that the alleged poison gas had a delayed action, it allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves - from: Repts. of the Polish Underground, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III,v.7,pp.120f.,quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - So called 'eyewitness' Daniel Bennahmias claimed the alleged gas chambers walls were PAINTED after each gassing. Well, even if true, that would simply 'lock in' the HCN in the mortar and concrete. There is no significant cyanide residue to be found which would indicate mass gassings as alleged. He also claims that he was one of the alleged 'sonderkommandos'; they were supposedly in charge of moving bodies from the alleged gas chambers. The story goes that all sonderkommandos were murdered in order to silence them. Peculiar, Daniel Bennahmias was not killed and was in fact given a choice of staying in Auschwitz to await the 'liberating' Soviets, or to leave with the SS in retreat; he chose to go with the SS.


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - According to Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - Filip Mueller, whose laughable beststeller "Sonderbehandlung" Raul Hilberg quotes no less than 20 times as a source in his standard work about the "Holocaust" - described how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - Former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he "was sent to the camp gas chamber at least six times...maybe children resist better, I don't know." Gazette, Montreal, Canada, August 5, 1993


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: - The vacuum chamber...former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that during the time he was in Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air out of death chambers. {Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.}


- 'eyewitness' Arnold Friedman's stated that he (and four others at the same time) 'survived' by breathing through a keyhole in the 'gas chamber' door at FLOSSENBERG.


:bootyshake: - Ada Bimko (now Hadassah Rosensaft of the Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC): she testified to being shown by an SS officer the huge cylinders of gas in a room above the gas chamber!


:bootyshake: - Auschwitz inmate, Regina Bialek stated: I was made to undress and taken by lorry to a gas chamber. There were seven gas chambers at Auschwitz. This particular one was underground and the lorry was able to run down the slope and straight into the chamber. Here we were tipped unceremoniously on the floor. The room was about 12 yards square and small lights on the wall dimly illuminated it. When the room was full a hissing sound was heard coming from the centre point on the floor and gas came into the room. After what seemed about ten minutes some of the victims began to bite their hands and foam at the mouth, and blood issued from their ears, eyes and mouth, and their faces went blue. I suffered from all these symptoms, together with a tight feeling at the throat. I was half conscious when my number was called out by Dr. Mengele and I was led from the chamber. I attribute my escape to the fact that the daughter of a friend of mine who was an Aryan and a doctor at Auschwitz had seen me being transported to the chamber and had told her mother, who immediately appealed to Dr. Mengele.


- In the book, 'Lest We Forget', it describes how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the purported boiler room that produced the live steam. - 'Lest We Forget', World Jewish Congress (New York: 1943), pp.4, 6-7.


- The Polish govt. "conclusively proved" the Germans operated steam death chambers. They carried out "an on site, expert examination of the steam chambers," submitting an "expert report" to the Nuremberg Tribunal.- Nuremberg Trial Document 3311-PS, IMT "blue series"/1947-1949), vol.32, pp.152-158


- Here's more real 'evidence' - Killing in vacuum chamber, with steam, or chlorine gas -----from: W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.


- "There was a blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid" (which is colorless) - R. Böck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor's Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.


- "In retreat the stationary gas chambers in the eastern part of the camp were restructured, even little turrets and other architectural embellishments were added so that they would look like innocent garages." - 'The Factory of Death at Auschwitz' Boris Polevoi, Pravda, 1945


- Communist Jew, Bruno Baum, himself a member of the 'partisans', boasted after the war: "The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates." - Bruno Baum, »Wir funken aus der Hölle« in Deutsche Volkszeitung - Zentralorgan der KPD, Berlin 31.7.1945.; cf. B. Baum


- Elan Steinberg, Executive Director of the World Jewish Congress when discussing accusations of atrocities against Germans: "The problem is, when you investigate something as serious as this, you can not rely on eyewitnesses who, even with the best of intentions, with the best of intentions, can give you misleading information".


:bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: :bootyshake: - David Greenburg, reviewing the memoirs of John Toland in the NY Times Book
Review- 10-19-97:
"It is not necessary to wonder how, technically, such mass murder was possible. It was technically possible because it took place." "It is fitting for us to simply repeat this truth: there is not and cannot be any debate on the existence of the gas chambers."



- ".It is not necessary to ask oneself how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was technically possible since it took place. Such is the point of departure required of any historical enquiry on the subject. This truth obliges us to state quite simply: there is not, there cannot be, any debate on the existence of the gas chambers." - from a declaration, published in Le Monde, feb 21, 1979. Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 "historians"

source: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.hist ... fde4?pli=1
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-arch ... ppers.html

Jerzy
http://www.polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic ... 36&t=21893

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:03 am)

If the population of the world is about 7 billion and the world's Jews account for 14m ish then the ratio is about 500/1. It is therefore amazing that so much trouble has been caused by so few people, that so few Jews have so much influence and power, and so many lies have been told by so few people, resulting in so much money per jew being extracted from the other 500 of us.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Hannover » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:06 pm)

borjastick wrote:If the population of the world is about 7 billion and the world's Jews account for 14m ish then the ratio is about 500/1. It is therefore amazing that so much trouble has been caused by so few people, that so few Jews have so much influence and power, and so many lies have been told by so few people, resulting in so much money per jew being extracted from the other 500 of us.


- Due to Jewish law, many Jews refuse to be counted.

- Many Jews do not consider themselves religious, but do consider themselves to be 'Jews', therefore they do not show up as 'Jews' in censuses which count the number of Jews via a question on religious beliefs.

- There are clearly more Jews than we are led to believe.

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 3 months ago (Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:51 pm)

Hannover, I agree there are many more Jews than we are told and therein lies a tale or two regarding the holocaust. However when I talk of such a low number having so much power and influence I am referring to those who are publicly Jewish and are well known in their own right and sphere of influence.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 3 months ago (Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:31 am)

I do wonder though amid all the claims and hot air from the holocaust how many jews of any form or background, secret or in the system there are in the world. My gut feel is that there are still comparatively few but in excess of 30m, possibly as high as 50m worldwide. Still a very low number and one which beggars belief when looking at the holohoax claims and figures pre and post war.

One thing is clear is how so many of them fled europe or at least occupied europe and changed their names to what we would consider British historical names.

A clear case is the current CEO of British Telecom who has resigned to become trade secretary to the British government. His name? Livingstone... Apparently he is very jewish and lives in a fairly strict jewish lifestyle. More undue influence and subtle manipulation on the cards me thinks along with the ex head of the British labour party's Labour Friends Of Israel who now has a very senior post within the BBC.

It's not the religion that gets me going but the influence and deceit that they use against the world.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby hermod » 7 years 3 months ago (Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:14 am)

borjastick wrote:One thing is clear is how so many of them fled europe or at least occupied europe and changed their names to what we would consider British historical names.

A clear case is the current CEO of British Telecom who has resigned to become trade secretary to the British government. His name? Livingstone... Apparently he is very jewish and lives in a fairly strict jewish lifestyle. More undue influence and subtle manipulation on the cards me thinks along with the ex head of the British labour party's Labour Friends Of Israel who now has a very senior post within the BBC.

It's not the religion that gets me going but the influence and deceit that they use against the world.


And wasn't "Israël's founding father" himself called David Grün (a Polish Jew) before he became the world-famous David Ben-Gurion? I like that symbolic example...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 7 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:48 pm)

Uncritical belief in the Holocaust in the West is an act of faith, of zealotry, even the most
outrageous lies go unchallenged. My favourite piece of Holocaust nonsense is a story that appeared in the supposedly prestigious New
York Times newspaper in 1988. According to Holocaust survivor Morris Hubert, a most
remarkable menagerie existed in Buchenwald:

"In the camp there was a cage with a bear and an eagle," he said. "Every day, they would
throw a Jew in there. The bearwould tear him apart and the eagle would pick at his bones."
"But that's unbelievable," whispered a visitor.
"It is unbelievable," said Mr. Hubert, "but it happened." (7)



This story is prima facie ludicrous; that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, of course, but as far as I know, it is a unique claim: there are no reports of the same acts of barbarism from any other source. Has anyone here heard of bears being kept in the Nazi concentration camps? And how would the Nazis or anyone keep an eagle in the
same cage as a bear without the bear tearing it to pieces? Perhaps it was a special breed of
bear, a man-eating koala trained to perform this particular task?
I don't wish to sound uncharitable, or to mock the afflicted, but it would help if newspapers such as the New York Times didn't insult my intelligence, and yours, by endorsing such nonsense.
(7) Too Painful to Remember, by Aril Goldman, published in the New York Times, November 10,
1988, (Late Edition), page A10
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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 7 years 2 months ago (Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:59 pm)

4. Treblinka: Elimination of Corpses Without a Trace
4.1. Burial Pits
According to Eliahu Rosenberg,[16] after the trap doors of the gas chambers were pulled up,
the corpses (some 850,000 altogether) were taken to pits measuring 394 ft. in length, 49 ft. in
breadth and 20 ft. in depth. Based on Rosenberg's testimony, and assuming a likely gradient of
65° in the sandy and gravelly terrain of the Treblinka area and a 1.6 ft. soil layer to cover the
mass grave, such a burial pit would have had a fillable volume of some 282,500 cu.ft.

Some witnesses have stated that the bodies were layered into the pit and that each layer was
covered with a layer of soil; others claim that the bodies were haphazardly thrown into the pit.
Both situations would allow for approximately 8 bodies per cubic meter (10 per 44 cubic ft.),
meaning that the pits described would have accommodated about 64,000 bodies each.
Interestingly enough, none of the witnesses mention the considerable amount of excavated soil,
which came to about 339,000 cubic ft. per pit, given a 20% loosening-up of the soil. The gradient of a pit dug in natural ground conditions is known to be much steeper than that of the pile of dug-up contents. If the surface area of the burial pit measured 19,300 sq.ft., as alleged, then given a gradient of approximately 30° for the excavated gravel or sand - and after subtracting approximately 35,300 cu.ft. for the material with which the corpses were covered - the area taken up by the dug-up material piled 20 ft. high along the pit would have been approximately 28,000 sq.ft.

According to the Slovenian historian Tone Ference,[84] the upper extermination area, which is
said to have been within the camp area of Treblinka II, covered an area of about 172,000 sq.ft.;
however, to forestall any objections on this score, we shall base our further considerations on
the size of the extermination area indicated by the archival plan, namely about 193,700 sq.ft.
This area held not only burial pits and the material dug up in the course of their excavation, but gas chambers and other buildings as well. If one accepts the 875,000 dead mentioned in the Jerusalem Trial of John Demjanjuk, then 14 burial pits à la Rosenberg and a total of
some 4.6 million cu.ft. of excavated earth would have been involved in the accommodation of all these bodies. Since these 14 pits would have taken up an area of 271,150 sq.ft, they could not have fit into the extermination area measuring only 193,700 sq.ft. Further, the heaps of
excavated material resulting from the 14 burial pits would have required an additional area of
more than 392,000 sq.ft.

If, on the other hand, one proceeds on the assumption that the claims of 3 million victims are correct, then 47 burial pits covering some 910,000 sq.ft. would have been needed; these would have taken up almost two-thirds of the area of Treblinka II - not even including the excavated soil going with them.

Finally, some comments on the allegedly 20-ft.-deep burial pits. First of all, it seems unlikely that the pits would have been dug that deep, as doing so would have required either complicated heavy machinery or increased expenses related to the construction of ramps. The excavators allegedly used in Treblinka would hardly have been adequate to this task.[85] At depths of 20
ft., it is also probable that ground water seepage occurs, which would have impeded or
downright prevented the construction and use of pits of such depth. However, since the camp
Treblinka I, with a large gravel pit, is said to have been located near Treblinka II, a ground
water level lower than 20 ft. is certainly conceivable. If one proceeds on the assumption of a
more realistic pit depth of approximately 10 ft., then a pit of the aforementioned surface area
would have held some 35,000 bodies, and 25 pits would have been needed, covering a total of
484,200 sq.ft. excluding the area taken up by the excavated soil. The excavated material itself
would have required an area of 570,300 sq.ft., making for a total of almost 1.1 million sq.ft. For
the alleged 3 million victims, 86 pits covering 1.67 million sq.ft. would have been needed, plus
the corresponding area for the excavated soil.
In the case of Auschwitz, quantitative considerations based on events 'attested to' by witnesses, and on the
technical and material consequences resulting from the alleged events, have brought about a constant and
ongoing reduction in the number of victims.[86] Scientific facts have always been the enemy of religious
dogma.
4.2. Elimination of the Corpses - Not Quite Without a Trace

The elimination of victims without a trace is a vital link in the chain of evidence for the Holocaust in general.

Elimination without a trace is the prerequisite for an arbitrary number of victims. This is how the numbers of
victims alleged for Treblinka come to vary from 700,000 to 3 million - a phenomenon that also appears in
other cases.[87] The casual treatment of such high numbers of victims seems questionable from the start,
and ought to prompt those concerned with the topic to gather scientifically irrefutable facts so as to prevent
the Holocaust from becoming a matter of faith. But smoke and mirrors and eyewitness testimony have been
deemed good enough. The technically unrealistic claims regarding the mass murder of human beings are
compounded by the utterly unbelievable accounts of the removal of bodies without any trace. Millions of
dead cannot simply vanish into thin air. In this context the reader is referred to the case of Katyn, where
the 4,500 Polish officers murdered by the Soviets in 1940 were discovered in 1943.[88]
According to eyewitness testimony, Himmler ordered the incineration of bodies in the extermination camp
Treblinka to eliminate any evidence of the killings; this order was allegedly given in March 1943.[89] This is said to have involved the exhumation..."

http://www.polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic.php?t=3929

"In their article on the Treblinka concentration camp, historian Mark Weber and attorney Andrew
Allen collected six pieces of evidence that point to the conclusion that Jews and others were
murdered in steam chambers at the site.13 Let us note each of them:
According to an “eyewitness” account received in November 1942 in London from the Warsaw
ghetto underground organization, Jews were supposedly exterminated in death rooms with
“steam coming out of the numerous holes in the pipes.”14

In 1943, the New York Times published more “eyewitness” testimony regarding the mass murder
of Jews in the alleged Treblinka steam chambers. This account provided readers with essential
details about the operation of these steam chambers.15

In The Black Book of Polish Jewry, a 1943 work sponsored by an array of respected dignitaries
like Albert Einstein and Eleanor Roosevelt, the Treblinka steam story was again given in detail.16

Another book, Lest We Forget, published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish Congress,
describes how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the
purported boiler room that produced the live steam.17

According to a 1944 “eyewitness” account compiled by the OSS, the principle US intelligence
agency, Jews at Treblinka “were in general killed by steam and not by gas as had been first
suspected.”18

In 1945, the Polish government “conclusively proved” the Germans operated these death
chambers. They carried out “an onsite, physical examination of the steam chambers,” submitting
an “expert report” to the Nuremberg Tribunal.19

Here we have a convergence of evidence from six sources. The eyewitness testimony is
substantiated by the onsite, hands-on investigation of the Polish authorities. This convergence of
evidence is even better than the one that Judge Gray heard because it has an onsite, expert
study of the murder weapon itself that “conclusively proves” the existence of the steam
chambers.
Therefore, the Germans must have murdered people in steam chambers at Treblinka.
Lo and behold, the pitfalls of such a conclusion! [/u
[
Historians now tell us there were no steam chambers at Treblinka. The convergence of evidence
that “proves” their existence is entirely false. Over the years, the story changed and today it is
alleged that Jews and others were murdered with carbon monoxide gas, generated from captured
Soviet diesel tank engines.20 Neither Judge Gray or Lipstadt and company’s team of world
renowned Holocaust experts have ever explained why the convergence of evidence for Treblinka
steam chambers points to a false conclusion and the convergence of evidence for the Auschwitz
gas chambers allegedly points to true conclusion.

Since most of the evidence in the convergence of evidence for the Treblinka steam chambers is
not qualitatively different from the evidence in the convergence of evidence for the Auschwitz
gas chambers; and since the convergence of evidence for the Treblinka steam chambers leads to
a false conclusion, isn’t it also possible that the convergence of evidence for the Auschwitz gas
chambers also points to a false conclusion?


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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby A.N. Field » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:51 am)

I'm looking for a transcript of David Irving's libel case. In particular, I would like to read Judge Gray's admission that he'd thought the evidence for the Holocrock was compelling. I want to be able to quote verbatim with page numbers. Any help most appreciated. I couldn't turn it up at Irving's site and haven't found it in my web searching. Old and feeble probably.
Our national peril is that we are ignoring all the vital facts of the situation. Our enemies are none the less real because their ways are hidden ways. But they are a thousand times more insidious.

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:29 pm)

The transcript is here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Legal/Penguin/transcripts/

I've seen the quote you refer to but I don't interpret it as anything other than the judge setting aside his existing belief in order to give a fair hearing.

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Re: Unsubstantiated 'eyewitness testimonies' = truth?

Postby A.N. Field » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:26 pm)

Thanks, KIngfisher, but it doesn't load from the http://wood.ccta.gov.uk/courtser/judgem ... irving.htm

I'm guessing that Gray's statement came from the last day.
Our national peril is that we are ignoring all the vital facts of the situation. Our enemies are none the less real because their ways are hidden ways. But they are a thousand times more insidious.


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