The David Irving Phenomenon

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borjastick
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The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby borjastick » 6 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:53 pm)

Each and every one of us has heard of David Irving. We have been exposed to his writings, films and perhaps even seen him in action in a live appearance. He is almost the living embodiment of revisionism and historical review of the holocaust. I would of course refer to him as a holocaust denier, but that would be wrong as he firmly denies that title applies to him. He announces himself as a professional historian; unfettered by the cloak and control of academia.

I have read some of his stuff and seen some of his work on his trip to Auschwitz. He is a worker, a grafter and has walked the miles and miles of hard research.

However I have never until today sat and watched his presentations on youtube.com.

He speaks with gusto, enthusiasm leaps from almost every sentence and is surprisingly witty. This speech is an absolute must for anyone interested in the truth of the holocaust http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcLzTlfJ ... 9F34CC0730.

He is fundamental in my opinion to the whole revisionist journey, together with Zundel, Rudolf and of course many more.

Yes he has paid a very heavy price for his work and the results of it. So why is he targeted by some revisionists? Why has his work or later position on things led to his being almost ridiculed and is this fair?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:06 pm)

Irving is understandably unpopular with many revisionists because, after coming out of his Austrian imprisonment he appears to have gone back on his Revisionist position, even arguing for a higher number of deaths in the Reinhardt camps than orthodoxy does. I agree his current position is difficult to take.

But, for me that does not detract from the brilliancy of his presentations, mainly at the IHR, to be found on YouTube. I just recently watched his The Faking of Adolf Hitler that Jerzy has linked to in another thread. His Churchill's War presentation summarises the 3 volume book that, for me at least, is impossibly long, and is a complete demolition of the pompous, narcissistic old fraud. he also has one dealing with the Big H, mainly Auschwitz. These are mostly quite old by now.

And, of course, as he never ceases to remind us, he is a historian who goes to the sources and does not just repeat what others say, which appears to be what most academic history consists of.

Recognise the problems with Irving but give him his due. At his best, and in his chosen fields he is brilliant.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Hannover » 6 years 4 months ago (Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:38 pm)

I have seen / heard Irving speak on two occasions ... sponsored by the IHR, On the second occasion I even sat outside on the patio area of his hotel and drank wine with him. While pleasant enough, he also has a superiority complex and is boastful; all of which do not serve him well. Ernst Zundel referred to Irving as having a dual personality, Could be.

Irving is entertaining in his talks, to be sure, and there is no doubt he has done some good work. I own numerous works by him. Having said that, I can also say he has done some poor work. For one, his Goebbels book is utterly awful.

He was at one time a leading figure in the Revisionist 'movement', if you will. He has certainly gone downhill and lost that position to the likes of Germar Rudolf and others.

Speaking of Irving's recent poor efforts, have a look at these. They shine light on Irving and his recent and easily refuted 'holocaust lite' backtracking.

'The Razor and the Ring, by John Weir'
http://codoh.com/library/document/364

Hannover @ Grubach's Letters to David Irving on the Hoefle telegram

Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?

The Warden @ Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby RJJJr » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:01 pm)

I can understand why he flipped flopped, a pity he embroiled himself in needless controversey, he did have some skill as a historian.
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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Hannover » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:11 pm)

RJJJr wrote:I can understand why he flipped flopped, a pity he embroiled himself in needless controversey, he did have some skill as a historian.

Please explain what you mean when you said "I can understand why he flipped flopped..." Do you believe the Hofle telegram refers to 'extermination of Jews'?

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby RJJJr » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:49 pm)

Hannover,
What I mean is that I can understand why he flip=flopped, based upon the financial burdens put upon him resulting from his numerous legal battles.. I wasn't referring to the Hofle telegram
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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:49 pm)

To understand Irving, I suggest that people compare, for example, what Irving had to say about the Hungarian uprising in 1956 in the YouTube video referred to in Borjastick's OP to what Irving actually wrote in his book Uprising which I no longer have in my possession.

In the video he said that the uprising for the first few days was essentially an anti-Jewish pogrom against Hungary's all-Jewish leadership. In the book as I recall, he makes absolutely NO MENTION of anything like that. I could be wrong--and I will not bother to check--because I gave away all my Irving books long ago.

Irving tailors every statement he makes to his audience. He is a great chameleon and a shameless self-promoter. It seemed that every sentence in his speech, typical of all his speeches, was basically about himself.

His insistence in the video that about ten thousand Jews were murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau is typical Irving rubbish. Shame on David Irving for pandering to the Jews once again. He continuously talks out of all sides of his mouth. If he exonerates the Germans of some heinous charge--he always makes up for that by adding some foul accusation later on.

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Last edited by Friedrich Paul Berg on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:01 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:To understand Irving, I suggest that people compare, for example, what Irving had to say about the Hungarian uprising in 1956 in the YouTube video referred to in Borjastick's OP to what Irving actually wrote in his book Uprising which I no longer have in my possession.

In the video he said that the uprising for the first few days was essentially an anti-Jewish pogrom against Hungary's all-Jewish leadership. In the book as I recall, he makes absolutely NO MENTION of anything like that. I could be wrong--and I will not bother to check--because I gave away all my Irving books long ago.


You are indeed mistaken here. It is a major feature of the book. He explains in the introduction that he was quite unaware of this before he began researching the topic. He also comments on the amount of criticism he had received for this.

I, too, am working from memory so I can't give chapter and verse.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:40 pm)

Someone should check the book Uprising. As I recall, when I read it I could find no mention of anyone in Hungary's leadership even being Jewish. I was disappointed by the book which in no way matched the juicy story he had given at the IHR.

Irving gave a talk at the IHR, just after I spoke there in 1983, in which he gave the same message about the Hungarian uprising--but two weeks later the British publication "Books and Bookmen" published an Irving letter about his speech to the IHR in which he also made no mention of anything like an anti-Jewish uprising in Hungary.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby JoFo » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:00 am)

I have to give Irving credit with turning me on to the revisionist movement in the first place. I had always been an avid student of World War II--particularly the European theater--and it was in researching this subject that I stumbled across his YouTube video "The Holocaust Lie". Prior to that, I had not questioned the veracity of the holocaust story. From Irving I moved on to Zündel, Faurisson , Leuchter, Rudolf, Butz, (yes, and you too, Mr. Berg!) and I was hooked!

So whatever his shortcomings, I think David Irving is useful to some degree in providing eine Eingang to the topic.

Jofo

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby borjastick » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:22 am)

I watched the youtube video of Irving's speech twice and found it totally absorbing. Yes he may tailor every speech to the angle of the audience but isn't that normal? Politicians and leaders do it as a matter of course, it doesn't negate the content of their words or message. Irving's speech was very good on a number of levels including the fact that he is able to precisely deliver key facts, with back up, in an easy to digest segment. If one didn't read anything else about revisionism but watched the video it would serve to educate and convince.

The part about the Hungarian uprising was a surprise to me and a welcome one at that. The issue of the local populations taking care of the Jewish issue in Latvia etc was again very interesting as was his incisive illumination of the lack of HCN residue in the so called gas chambers. I think he has paid a heavy price for being as he calls it 'a professional Historian'. That statement alone kicks people like Terry into touch.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:07 am)

The introduction to Uprising doesn't go into quite the depth I thought but it has some mention of Jewish backgrounds. I knew about this aspect before I started reading the book so I think it must have come from the video Borjastick refers to.

I do know that somewhere he says he got a lot of stick for pointing out who was Jewish in his list of important personalities at the beginning of the book, and there are a lot.
Who Was Who In Hungary
The ages are as at the time of the 1956 uprising. As in the bulk of the narra-
tive, forenames have been anglicised where practicable. In the Source Notes,
Hungarian forenames are also used.
Áczel, Thomas – 35, Jewish, Stalin prize-winning author, journalist and Com-
munist Party secretary to the Writers’ Union; escaped to USA.
Andics, Elizabeth – 54, Jewish, dialectician, director of the Party School, mar-
ried to Andrew Berei, 56, Jewish, economist, chairman of the Planning Office.
Both alive in Budapest.
Apró, Antal – 43, Jewish, Communist trades unionist who became deputy prime
minister. One of Hungary’s most durable politicians. Still serving.
Bata, Stephen – 46, former bus conductor, chief of the general staff from Octo-
ber 1950 to July 1953 when he became minister of defence.
Benke, Valéria – 36, Jewish, director of Hungarian radio broadcasting; now
Politburo member, Budapest.
Benjámin, Ladislas – 41, Jewish, former factory worker, poet.
Bibó, Stephen – 45, professor of law, member of National Peasant Party, minis-
ter of state for one day in Imre Nagy’s final Cabinet, the only member who
refused to flee when the Russians invaded Parliament. Sentence: life impris-
onment. Amnestied in 1963, died in Budapest, 1979.
Boldizsár, Ivan – 44, Jewish, diplomatist, professional journalist, editor of Mon-
day News and other Party journals. Born survivor, still writing in Budapest.
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errors18
UPRISING!
Brankov, Lazarus – Yugoslav chargé d’affaires, framed, tried with Rajk in 1949
and sentenced to imprisonment.
Déry, Tibor – 50, Jewish, prize-winning novelist and long-serving Communist.
Sentence: nine years.
Dobi, Stephen – 64, fellow-travelling Smallholder politician, appointed chair-
man of the presidium (President) in 1952.
Donáth, Francis – 41, long term member (and prisoner) of the Party. Sentence:
twelve years.
Dudás, Joseph – rebel commander, editor of rebel Hungarian Independence.
Hanged.
Erdei, Francis – 45, Jewish, a deputy prime minister under Nagy; briefly kid-
napped by Soviets at Tököl when uprising was crushed, then released. Street
named after him now. Died in bed, 1971.
ErdŒs, Peter – Jewish, radio journalist, now prosperous Budapest manager.
Faludy, George – 45, Jewish, poet, once Rákosi’s prisoner, escaped after upris-
ing to Toronto.
Farkas, Michael – 52, Jewish, Stalinist minister of defence under Rákosi.
Fazekas, George – Jewish, leading former Soviet partisan, Party journalist, lives
in Budapest.
Fekete, Alexander – 29, journalist on Free People, member of PetŒfi Circle.
Four years served in prison.
GerŒ, Ernest – 58, Jewish, many years in Soviet exile, machinations in Spanish
Civil War, ministerial posts in Hungary after the Second World War, deputy
This PDF version: © Parforce UK Ltd 2001
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errorsOne Nation’s Nightmare: Hungary 1956
19
prime minister 1955 to 1956, succeeded Rákosi in July 1956 as general sec-
retary (leader) of the Hungarian Communist Party. Escaped during uprising
to Moscow, returned in disgrace in 1960. Died in reduced circumstances in
Budapest, 1980.
Gimes, Nicholas – Jewish, young journalist on Free People, saw the light, be-
came leading agitator in Imre Nagy group. Hanged.
Haraszti, Alexander – 59, journalist, long time Party member, imprisoned under
Rákosi. Joined the Imre Nagy “conspiracy”. Sentence: eight years.
Háy, Julius – Jewish, Communist playwright, spent wartime exile in Moscow,
repented rather late, became a vocal motor behind the popular discontent in
1956. Sentence: six years. Died in Switzerland 1975.
Hegedüs, Andrew – 34, sociologist, well-educated, Politburo member since 1951,
one of Rákosi’s closest circle, became deputy minister of agriculture then
prime minister in 1955 under GerŒ, still holding that post at the time of the
1956 uprising. Escaped during the uprising to Moscow, returned in 1958 to
Budapest and still lives there.
Heltai, George – Jewish, a local Party branch secretary in Budapest; later offi-
cial of the foreign ministry, acted as Nagy’s unofficial foreign minister during
the uprising, after which his path to the United States was smoothed by
Kádár’s Party, glad to get rid of him.
Horváth, Martin – 50, Jewish, editor-in-chief of Free People.
Illyes, Julius – 53, poet, playwright.
Jánosi, Francis – Calvinist, former head of army political commissars; Imre
Nagy’s son-in-law, friend and adviser.
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UPRISING!
Kádár, János – 44, engine fitter, leader of underground Party in wartime Hun-
gary, Rákosi’s minister of the interior 1948 to 1951, and inspector general of
the ÁVO, then Rákosi’s prisoner, freed by Imre Nagy in 1954; became chief
of a Budapest Party branch, joined Nagy’s rebel government, abandoned it
on November lst, 1956, and returned three days later with Soviet fire-power
to take over Nagy’s post himself. Now widely respected as Party leader in
Hungary.
Karinthy, Francis – 45, writer.
Kende, Peter – 39, one time columnist on Free People; escaped to Paris.
Kiss, Karl – 53, Jewish, undercover Communist activist, leading Party organ-
iser, Politburo member and minister and deputy prime minister under Rákosi.
Kopácsi, Alexander – former Soviet partisan, Budapest police chief 1952 to
1956, effectively joined Imre Nagy’s cause. Sentence: life imprisonment.
Amnestied in 1963, now lives in Toronto.
Kovács, Stephen – chief of the general staff in Imre Nagy’s rebel government.
Kidnapped by Soviets at Tököl, sentenced to prison. Lives in Budapest.
Losonczy, Géza – Party member, journalist, imprisoned under Rákosi. Polit-
buro member under Imre Nagy, arrested, died in 1957 in captivity, allegedly
as a result of force-feeding.
Lukács, George – 59, Jewish, Marxist philosopher; became Nagy’s minister of
culture, kidnapped to Romania with the Nagy group, but returned early to
position of moderate prominence under Kádár. Died 1971.
Maléter, Paul – former Soviet partisan, colonel in Hungarian army, appointed
by Nagy as minister of defence. Kidnapped at Tököl by the Soviets, impris-
oned by Kádár, tried, and hanged.
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errorsOne Nation’s Nightmare: Hungary 1956
21
Marosán, George – 48, Social Democratic leader, sold out his party to Rákosi
and the Communists, was soon afterwards jailed by Rákosi, reinstated to the
Politburo in 1956 and became Kádár’s strongman. Lives in Budapest.
Márton, Ladislas – 22, Jewish, student leader, escaped to England. Lives in
Paris.
Méray, Tibor – 42, Jewish, staff journalist on Free People for nine years from
1947. Escaped to Paris, still lives there.
Molnár, Nicholas – 38, Jewish, journalist, drama critic of Free People, editor of
Literary Gazette. Lives in Geneva.
Mindszenty, Cardinal Joseph – leader of Hungary’s huge Catholic population,
deputy head of State until his incarceration in 1949.
Münnich, Francis – top-ranking NKVD agent, Hungarian ambassador to Mos-
cow, then to Belgrade; appointed minister of interior in Nagy government,
then of armed forces in the Kádár government which suppressed the upris-
ing.
Nagy, Imre – 60, Calvinist, old guard Communist; wartime exile in Moscow,
first post-war minister of land reform, then briefly minister of the interior;
became prime minister 1953 to 1955, then again during the uprising of Oc-
tober-November 1956. Kidnapped by the Russians, deported to Romania,
tried by Kádár government, sentenced to death.
Oberszovsky, Julius – editor, rebel newspaper Truth. Sentence: death, later com-
muted.
Péter, Gábor – 50, Jewish, chief of ÁVO, Communist secret police.
Piros, Ladislas – 39, Jewish, minister of the interior.
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UPRISING!
Rajk, Ladislas – born 1909, minister of the interior under Rákosi, hanged after a
notorious show trial in 1949, rehabilitated just before the October 1956 up-
rising with a state funeral.
Rákosi, Matthias – 64, Jewish, leader of Hungarian émigrés in Moscow 1940 to
1944; general secretary (leader) of Hungarian Communist Party 1944 to 1956;
prime minister 1947 to 1953.
Révai, Joseph – 58, Jewish, wartime exile in Moscow, editor-in-chief of Free
People from 1945 to 1951, then propaganda minister; chief theoretician dur-
ing the Rákosi administration.
Révész, Géza – Communist partisan.
Szilágyi, Joseph – police colonel in Budapest, then leading rebel on Imre Nagy’s
staff. Hanged after separate trial, before Nagy trial.
Tildy, Zoltán – Calvinist, former president of Hungary, imprisoned by Rákosi,
joined Imre Nagy’s Cabinet. Sentence: six years.
Vas, Zoltán – 56, Jewish, exile in Moscow during the war, directed Hungarian
partisan school.
Vásárhelyi, Nicholas – journalist; Imre Nagy’s press chief during 1953 to 1955
New Course, then again during the uprising. Sentence: five years.
Zelk, Zoltán – Jewish, poet.


He relates anti-Communism to anti-Semitism dating back to Bela Kun:
The country would not easily forget the 133 days of Kun’s “Soviet repub-
lic”. Organised murder gangs, of which a later Reinhard Heydrich or Adolf
Eichmann would have been proud, prowled the country on the orders of Otto
Korvin and Tibor Szamuely, liquidating “counter-revolutionaries” without trial.
In the same year Kun and his followers fled to Moscow, where they split into
several rival factions. Rákosi, who had been one of Kun’s officials, opted for
Austria; he outlived his welcome there in 1920 and returned to Moscow. The
new regime, led by Admiral Horthy, liquidated the rest of the Communist lead-
ers in what came to be known as the White Terror. Since Kun and all his cronies
had been Jews, the pogrom had unmistakably anti-Semitic overtones.


He later refers to
the perception that Rákosi’s leading henchmen returning from Moscow were Jews.


Of course it's not on every page, but it is very clear once you are aware of it.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby borjastick » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:15 am)

Kingfisher you have clearly shown the jewishness of a good deal of the politicians who were involved but a) were these people involved in any way in the holocaust and b) what were they doing at the time to the non jews in Hungary that made them the target of the uprising? I don't see a connection as yet, though I don't doubt there was something going on. IOW how were the jewish political elite at the time riding roughshod over the non jewish people?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:49 am)

Kingfisher quotes Irving above as follows:
Organised murder gangs, of which a later Reinhard Heydrich or Adolf
Eichmann would have been proud
, prowled the country on the orders of Otto
Korvin and Tibor Szamuely, liquidating “counter-revolutionaries” without trial.
Did Eichmann or Heydrich or any of their "murder gangs" ever "prowl" any countryside like that? I doubt it. So , why put it in without any more information if Irving is not simply trying to pander to Jews? If he criticizes some Jews at some point for something really heinous, he seems compelled to make up for that by dropping in some foul accusation against the Germans as well. And this is so typical of Irving. Is that " R-E-A-L " history? Of course, not.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: The David Irving Phenomenon

Postby Marcy Fleming » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:20 pm)

I have never trusted Irving. His one consistent theme since Hitler's War (1977) has been that there was a mass murder of millions of Jews by the Germans but that Hitler wasn't aware of it ! Utter rubbish. In a tightly controlled from the top state like National Socialist Germany there was a Himmler off the shelf operation that committed huge large scale mass murders and Hitler never knew ? This is even more untenable than the standard Shoah Business nonsense, which even my Mom as a fourth generation Communist Jew, has always been very doubtful about.

One other thing that finally forced me to stop reading Irving altogether was his Piers Morgan like hysteria at US gun owners after Newtown. He even savagely attacked the killer's first victim, his Mom, because she was a peaceful gun collector.
Organized Jewry is the biggest proponent of government grabs in the USA and Irving has managed to alienate most of his own US supporters. I will never read anything of his again. EVER. NEVER.


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