Survivor demographics post 2000

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Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 3 months ago (Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:03 am)

I'm sure this must have been covered elsewhere on this forum, but the statistics of holocaust survivors are one source of estimation for the number of European Jews who survived WW2. According to these sources, the figure at the end of 2012 was 198,000 in Israel alone:
http://www.slate.fr/story/53609/pauvrete-rescapes-shoah-israel
And 13,000 died in 2012:
http://www.slate.fr/monde/76246/rescapes-shoah-vivent-plus-longtemps
I have seen the figure of 1/3 of survivors living in Israel, but you would need to be a demographer to be able to project back. There are also the problems of uncounted and falsely counted persons. Still, these are raw data from public sources that someone may be able to use.
Last edited by EtienneSC on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 3 months ago (Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:53 pm)

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/population-estimates-for-england-and-wales/mid-2012/sty-population-estimates.html

Above is a link to a visual breakdown by age of the UK population. The proportion over 70 can help with a rule of thumb estimate of the number of "survivors" from 70 years ago who are alive today. I estimate the proportion of the population over 70 at not more than 15%. 200,000 in Israel means probably at least 400,000 worldwide. So, allowing for a large margin of error, a survivor population in 1945 somewhere in the range of 2 to 5 million.

This does raise the question of who is a "survivor". Were there ever those numbers in camps?

Of course we don't know the age distribution of survivors. We can probably expect the very old and the very young to be under-represented, but these survivor numbers certainly seem to give the lie to "all the children were killed on arrival".

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:36 am)

Another guesstimate would be:

200,000 survivors in Israel in 2012; I read recently that 1/3 of survivors were in Israel, which gives 600,000 survivors worldwide; taking your proportion of 15% implies: 600,000/15*100 = 4,000,000 survivors in 1945, compared to 6,000,000 said to be at risk during the war.

Inconclusive, but interesting...

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby borjastick » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:42 am)

EtienneSC

Inconclusive it may be but whichever way we look at the survivor numbers they don't add up and never did. If you calculate bottom up or top down the figure ain't made for squaring, such is the misinformation offered by the holocaustians and their directors in the zionist state. After all 6,000,000 dead minus the 2,500,000 who weren't killed at Auschwitz still amazingly equals 6,000,000!

As for the numbers who charged across the Mediterranean sea to stake a claim in Palestine, as I have said before I have direct witness experience of this from my father. He was in the Royal Irish Fusiliers and based near Netanyha on the coast for some months at the end of the war, having been in Alexandria, Suez, Jerusalem over the previous year or so. He well remembers the view out to sea everyday being the same but different; hundreds of ships of all sizes arriving everyday to disgorge their eastern european jewish passengers before returning. Day after day they came and delivered hundreds of thousands of jews to start a new life in a land they didn't own but would soon! I don't doubt that one third of european jews caught the fast boat to Palestine.

As for my father he is still with us and celebrates his 87th birthday next month, God bless him.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby Hektor » 6 years 3 months ago (Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:40 am)

Indeed interesting stats and maths; and everything points to millions of Jews being alive in May 1945 that lived in German controlled areas during world war two.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 1 month ago (Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:43 pm)

Sorry, I'm getting hyper here, so thought I would copy the article I linked to above in case it disappears:
[Moderator1 - Google English translation follows this]
"La grande pauvreté des rescapés de la Shoah en Israël

Près de 200.000 survivants de la Shoah vivent en Israël. Mais près d’un quart d’entre eux vivent sous le seuil de pauvreté et presque la moitié souffre de solitude. Un système opaque de redistribution des aides serait la cause de cette pauvreté endémique.

sraël commémore Yom Hashoah, la journée de la Shoah, ce jeudi 19 avril, en hommage aux six millions de Juifs qui ont péri pendant la Seconde guerre mondiale. Comme chaque année, deux minutes de silence seront observées, durant lesquelles les voitures et les bus s’arrêtent et les Israéliens se figent à l’appel des sirènes qui retentissent dans tout le pays.

Parmi ceux en Israël qui honorent la mémoire des disparus, figurent 198.000 survivants de la Shoah. L’an dernier, 13.000 d’entre eux sont décédés. Le nombre de survivants devrait chuter de 30% d’ici 2015 (soit 145.000 personnes environ) pour diminuer jusqu’à 48.000 en 2025. Chaque jour, 35 d’entre eux meurent en moyenne, soit plus d’un par heure.

Les divers rapports publiés cette année par la Fondation pour le bien-être des rescapés de la Shoah sont alarmants et éloquents. Les survivants vivent certes jusqu'à un âge avancé (88% sont âgés de plus de 75 ans), mais leur qualité de vie est basse. Près d’un quart d’entre eux vit sous le seuil de pauvreté et 40% se sentent très isolés. Un tiers d’entre eux ont besoin d'une aide permanente et n'arrivent pas à couvrir leurs dépenses alimentaires. La moitié estime avoir besoin d’une aide financière plus importante.

40% des rescapés disent toute leur difficulté de quitter leur maison pour aller faire des courses et acheter à manger. Quelque 20% des survivants souffrent du froid en hiver et manque d’équipements appropriés pour chauffer leur appartement. 14% sont touchés par l’insécurité alimentaire tandis que 4 % souffrent de malnutrition.

La faiblesse des allocations

Depuis plusieurs années, le débat fait rage en Israël sur le faible montant des aides sociales allouées aux survivants pauvres. En conséquence, une dizaine d’associations réputées sérieuses et soutenues par le gouvernement israélien leur viennent en aide. Leurs activités sont nombreuses: aide alimentaire via des distributions ou des soupes populaires, assistance au financement des dépenses de santé, volontariat auprès des rescapés pour soulager leur solitude, etc…

En 2005, 23.000 rescapés avaient reçu une aide de la Fondation pour le bien-être des rescapés de la Shoah. En 2011, le chiffre a atteint 52.500 bénéficiaires, avec une augmentation de 120% de son aide financière par rapport à l’an dernier.

40% du budget de la Fondation provient du gouvernement israélien et le reste de la Claims Conference (la Conférence sur les restitutions matérielles juives). «Mais nous n’avons pas assez de ressources pour survenir aux besoins de tous les rescapés», avoue Elazar Stern, le président de la Fondation. Résultat: la situation des survivants se détériore car leurs besoins augmentent avec l’âge.


«J'appelle les responsables, et à leur tête le ministre des Finances, à satisfaire de suite les besoins nécessaires.»

Mais d’autres organismes ont vu leur budget diminué drastiquement. Le quotidien israélien Ynet a révélé que la Société pour la localisation et la restitution des biens des victimes de la Shoah, l’agence officielle de restitution de l’Etat d’Israël, a été contrainte de réduire ses allocations mensuelles pour 10.000 de ses bénéficiaires.

Par manque de fonds disponibles, l’allocation est passée de 400 à 80 dollars par mois. «C’est inacceptable que tant de survivants de l’Holocauste ne reçoivent même pas l’aide nécessaire pour leur permettre de vivre dignement», a commenté Aviva Silberman, responsable de l’association israélienne The Aviv LeNitzolei Hasoah.

A l’occasion de la journée de la Shoah, le gouvernement israélien a annoncé cette semaine une augmentation de son budget consacré aux rescapés de 60 millions de dollars (plus de 45 millions d’euros), soit une hausse de 13% par rapport à 2011. Les survivants particulièrement démunis qui touchent seulement entre 700 et 2000 shekels par mois (entre 120 à 400 euros), soit environ 8.500 personnes, verront leur allocation mensuelle augmentée de 580 shekels (environ 116 euros).

Le budget du ministère israélien des Finances pour les droits des survivants de l’Holocauste est actuellement de 772 millions de dollars et il touche presque 90.000 personnes. En 2005, il s’élevait à 399 millions de dollars pour environ 51.000 rescapés.

Une redistribution opaque

Malgré ces ressources et les aides de l’Etat, un large pourcentage de survivants ne perçoit pas l'aide sociale à laquelle ils ont droit, d’autres ne sont éligibles par aucune association ou gouvernement, ce qui se traduit par un appauvrissement continu.

Pour l’ancien responsable des retraites au ministère israélien des Affaires sociales, Avi Bitsour, «le fait que près de 50.000 rescapés de la Shoah vivent sous le seuil de pauvreté est insupportable alors que les caisses de la Claims Conference disposent d'un milliard de dollars qui devraient être utilisés au profit des survivants».

Avi Bitsour a appelé le gouvernement israélien à trouver «immédiatement» un accord avec la Claims Conference pour le transfert de fonds en faveur des rescapés. Si les aides sont diverses (allocations et pensions de divers gouvernements, la Claim Conference, les associations, etc…), les critères d’éligibilité sont «assez obscures», constate Gilles Darmon, président et fondateur de l’association humanitaire israélienne Latet.

L’attribution et le montant des allocations dépendent entre autre de l’année de naissance du rescapé, du pays où il se trouvait pendant la Seconde guerre mondiale, mais aussi de l’année à laquelle il est arrivé en Israël.


«Il existe encore des dizaines de milliers de survivants qui ne touchent aucune aide. C’est le vrai problème de ces 50.000 rescapés qui vivent sous le seuil de pauvreté, déplore Gilles Darmon. A cause de ce système opaque, ils sont passés entre les mailles du filet. Certains n’ont même pas conscience des droits auxquels ils ont droit. »

Les rescapés en provenance d’Europe de l’Est sont les plus touchés par la misère, notamment ceux qui sont arrivés dans les années 1990 et qui n’ont pas su faire reconnaître pleinement leur statut de rescapé auprès de l’Etat d’Israël.


«Il existe aussi un réel problème sur la gestion de l’argent car les ressources existent, mais elles arrivent partiellement en bas de l’échelle, analyse Gilles Darmon. Il existe une marge significative entre l’ensemble des sommes d’argent distribuées et le montant qui arrive réellement dans le porte-monnaie du survivant. On a affaire à la lourdeur bureaucratique, à des frais énormes et à un excès de contrôle. Le gouvernement israélien est trop faible pour agir efficacement face à la bureaucratie des divers organismes.»

Cette semaine, des survivants de la Shoah se sont plaints auprès du gouvernement israélien. Ils accusent le Fonds d'aide censé les subventionner d’ériger une série d'obstacles bureaucratiques. L'Autorité en charge des droits des rescapés de la Shoah «nous sort les tripes avec la bureaucratie, porte atteinte aux rescapés les plus en détresse dans la dernière ligne droite de leur vie», accusent des proches des survivants, des membres du personnel soignant et assistants sociaux.

Le Trésor public «a certes de bonnes intentions, mais les rescapés sont affectés par le regain de vérification». Pour sa part, la direction générale du Trésor nie ces accusations, et atteste allouer des soins immédiats à la demande des rescapés.

Réformer la politique de redistribution

Alors à qui imputer la responsabilité de cette situation alarmante? Dans l’ensemble, les acteurs sociaux ne pointent personne du doigt. Selon eux, la faute revient à une multitude de facteurs: le manque d’aides sociales, l’argent mal redistribué ainsi que la dilution des responsabilités entre associations et gouvernements.


«On ne peut pas dire qu’il y a une volonté de bloquer ou freiner l’argent qui revient aux rescapés, insiste Gilles Darmon. Mais le constat est là: le protocole de travail est très lourd et l’argent met trop de temps à arriver jusqu’aux bénéficiaires. Or, c’est maintenant que les rescapés ont besoin d’aide. Il faut distribuer l’argent directement. Il y a urgence à réformer la politique de redistribution de l’aide partout dans le monde.»

La corruption est aussi venue altérer la bonne volonté du secteur associatif. Au début du mois d’avril, dix membres d'une association israélienne qui percevait des fonds de la Claims Conference afin de fournir des milliers de repas aux survivants de la Shoah ont été arrêtés en Israël.

Ils sont suspectés de détournements de plusieurs dizaines de millions de shekels pour leur profit personnel et blanchiment d'argent. Ils sont accusés d’avoir revendu de la nourriture, à la communauté ultra-orthodoxe haredi, alors que ces repas étaient destinés aux survivants.

Selon une étude interne menée en Israël par la Fondation pour le bien-être des rescapés de la Shoah, plus de 110.000 survivants sont définis comme «solitaires» c’est-à-dire vivant seuls dans leur maison (veufs, divorcés, célibataires ou sans enfants).

Pour la première fois, plus de la moitié du total des rescapés en Israël se classent dans cette catégorie. «La jeune génération ne nous pardonnera pas de ne pas s'être occupé d'eux avec le respect qui leur revient», conclut Elazar Stern, le président de la Fondation. "

[Moderator1 - Google translation]:
Extreme poverty of Holocaust survivors in Israel

Nearly 200,000 Holocaust survivors live in Israel . But nearly a quarter of them live below the poverty line and almost half suffer from loneliness. An opaque system of redistribution of aid would cause this endemic poverty.

srael commemorate Yom HaShoah , the day of the Holocaust, this Thursday, April 19 , in honor of the six million Jews who perished during the Second World War. As every year, two minutes of silence will be observed , during which cars and buses stop and the Israelis to freeze the siren call that rang throughout the country .

Among those in Israel who honor the memory of the dead , are 198,000 survivors of the Holocaust. Last year, 13,000 of them died. The number of survivors expected to fall by 30 % by 2015 (about 145,000 people) to decrease to 48,000 in 2025. Every day , 35 of them die on average more than one per hour.

The various reports published this year by the Foundation for the welfare of Holocaust survivors are alarming and eloquent . While the survivors live to old age (88% are aged over 75 years), but their quality of life is low. Nearly a quarter of them live below the poverty line and 40% feel very isolated . A third of them need ongoing assistance and are unable to cover their food expenses. Half feels they need more financial aid.

40% of all survivors say their difficulty leaving their home to go shopping and buy food. Approximately 20% of survivors suffer from cold in winter and lack of appropriate equipment to heat their apartment. 14% are affected by food insecurity, while 4% are malnourished.

The low allocations

For several years, the debate rages in Israel on the small amount of social aid granted to poor survivors. As a result, ten deemed serious and supported by the Israeli government associations come to their aid. Their activities are numerous: food aid distributions or through soup kitchens , assistance to finance health expenditure , volunteering with survivors to relieve their loneliness , etc ...

In 2005, 23,000 survivors had received assistance from the Foundation for the welfare of Holocaust survivors . In 2011, the figure reached 52,500 beneficiaries, with an increase of 120 % of its funding compared to last year.

40% of the Foundation's budget comes from the Israeli government and the rest of the Claims Conference ( Conference on Jewish Material refunds ) . "But we do not have enough resources to occur to the needs of all survivors ," says Elazar Stern , president of the Foundation. Result: the deteriorating situation of the survivors as their needs increase with age .


" I call on the leaders, and led by the Minister of Finance, to meet on the necessary requirements. "

But other agencies have seen their budgets drastically reduced . The Israeli daily Ynet revealed that the Society for the location and restitution for victims of the Holocaust , the official news agency of restitution from the State of Israel was forced to reduce its monthly allowances for 10,000 beneficiaries .

For lack of funds , the allocation increased to $ 80 400 per month. "It is unacceptable that so many Holocaust survivors do not even receive the necessary support to enable them to live with dignity ," said Aviva Silberman , head of the Israeli Association The LeNitzolei Hasoah Aviv .

On the occasion of the Day of the Holocaust , the Israeli government this week announced an increase in its budget for survivors of $ 60 million (over 45 million) , an increase of 13 % compared to 2011. Particularly needy survivors only affect between 700 and 2000 shekels a month ( between 120 to 400 euros) , or about 8,500 people , will see their monthly allowance increased from 580 shekels (about 116 euros) .

The budget of the Israeli Ministry of Finance for the rights of Holocaust survivors is currently $ 772 million and affects almost 90,000 people. In 2005, it amounted to $ 399 million for about 51,000 survivors.

An opaque redistribution

Despite these resources and state aid , a large percentage of survivors do not perceive that they are entitled to social assistance , others are not eligible for any organization or government, which results in a continuous loss .

For the former head of pensions at the Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs, Avi Bitsour , "the fact that nearly 50,000 Holocaust survivors live below the poverty line is unbearable while the Claims Conference funds have a billion dollars should be used for the benefit of survivors . "

Avi Bitsour called on the Israeli government to find "immediately" an agreement with the Claims Conference for the transfer of funds for the survivors. If the aid is different ( allowances and pensions of various governments , the Claim Conference , associations, etc ...) , the eligibility criteria are " quite obscure " says Gilles Darmon, president and founder of the Israeli humanitarian organization Latet .

The allocation and allocations depend, among other birth year of the survivor , the country where he was during the Second World War, but also the year in which he arrived in Israel.


"There are still tens of thousands of survivors who receive no help. This is the real problem of the 50,000 survivors who live below the poverty line, deplores Gilles Darmon . Because of this opaque system, they are passed between the cracks . Some do not even have awareness of the rights they are entitled . "

Survivors from Eastern Europe are most affected by poverty , especially those who arrived in the 1990s and failed to fully recognize their status as a survivor from the State of Israel .


"There is also a real problem on money management because resources exist, but they come partially down the ladder, Gilles Darmon analysis. There is a significant margin between the total amounts of money distributed and the amount actually happens in the wallet of the survivor. We are dealing with the bureaucracy , with huge costs and excessive control. The Israeli government is too weak to act effectively deal with the bureaucracy of the various agencies . "

This week, Holocaust survivors complained to the Israeli government. They accuse the supposed subsidize erect a series of bureaucratic obstacles Aid Fund. The Authority supports the rights of Holocaust survivors ' us out the guts with the bureaucracy affect the survivors most in need in the final stretch of their lives, " accuse relatives of survivors, caregivers and social workers.

The Treasury " certainly has good intentions , but the survivors are affected by the renewed audit." For its part, the Treasury Department denies the charges , and warrants immediate attention allocated to the request of the survivors.

Reforming redistribution policy

So who blame for this alarming situation? Overall , social actors do not point the finger at anyone . According to them, the fault lies with a multitude of factors : lack of social support , money poorly distributed and the dilution of responsibilities between governments and associations .


"We can not say that there is a desire to stop or slow down the money that goes to survivors insists Gilles Darmon . But the fact is this: the protocol work is very heavy and money takes too long to get to the beneficiaries . But it is now that the survivors need help . Must distribute the money directly . It is urgent to reform the policy of redistribution of support around the world . "

Corruption also came alter the willingness of the voluntary sector . At the beginning of April , ten members of an Israeli organization that was receiving funds from the Claims Conference to provide thousands of meals to survivors of the Holocaust were arrested in Israel.

They are suspected of embezzlement of tens of millions of shekels for their own profit and money laundering . They are accused of having sold the food, the Haredi ultra- Orthodox community, while the meals were for survivors .

According to an internal study conducted in Israel by the Foundation for the welfare of Holocaust survivors , more than 110,000 survivors are defined as "loners " that is to say , living alone in their house ( widowed, divorced , single or without children).

For the first time , more than half of all survivors in Israel fall into this category. " The younger generation will not forgive us for not having dealt with them with the respect they deserve ," says Elazar Stern , president of the Foundation.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 1 month ago (Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:08 am)

Here is an 02 October 2015 update from the Times of Israel on holocaust survivor numbers in the USA:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-administration-earmarks-12m-for-holocaust-survivors/
Obama administration earmarks $12m for Holocaust survivorsFunds to be distributed over five years; one-quarter of 130,000 US victims of Nazi persecution live under poverty line

The allocation from the Department of Health and Human Services to the Jewish Federations of North America, to be disbursed over five years, is part of an initiative launched in late 2013 by Vice President Joe Biden to address the needs of survivors in the United States, a quarter of whom live below the poverty line.

Combined with matching private funds, the approximately $2.5 million per year over the five years “will support $4.1 million in programming annually for organizations that help Holocaust survivors,” the JFNA said. According to JFNA, the funds will be used to advance “innovations in person-centered, trauma-informed supportive services for Holocaust survivors.”

“With this award, we will be able to advance our efforts to provide crucial services to vulnerable survivors, including those living in poverty, those in the Orthodox Jewish community and those from the former Soviet Union,” Mark Wilf, the chairman of the JFNA’s National Holocaust Survivor Initiative, said in a statement.

“These are our mothers and our fathers, our teachers and our mentors,” he said. “They deserve to live their remaining years in dignity, and this award will help make that hope a reality.”

The JFNA statement also thanked congressional sponsors of the funding, including U.S. Reps. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Fla., and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., and Sens. Ben Cardin, D-Md., and Mark Kirk, R-Ill.

After Biden launched the initiative in December 2013, the White House in 2014 named a special envoy to the community to coordinate volunteer activities to assist the survivors.

Some 130,000 Holocaust survivors are living in the United States, according to US government estimates.

Wilf, a co-owner of the Minnesota Vikings, helped organize the distribution this week of hearing aids to about 100 people in the New York area — more than 20 of them Holocaust survivors — at Yankee Stadium in New York.

The hearing aids, USA Today reported, were provided by the Starkey Hearing Foundation, with backing from JFNA, the Wilf Family Foundations, the NFL’s Vikings and the New York Yankees.

In other words, there are 130,000 survivors in the USA in 2015. THE USA may represent around 1/3 of the total world Jewish population. This is a little over 70 years after the close of WW2. If it be true that 1/4 are living in poverty, that would decrease their life expectancy, though life expectancy in general has been increasing in recent decades. The basis of the estimate is not clear from the article.

You would need to be a demographic expert and perhaps have additional information to know what this means for inferring population in 1945. However, using the method above, survivors over 70 would be 15% of the original number in 1945, giving 866,667 (=130,000/.15) in 1945.

Adding survivors in Israel (198,000 - 36,000 [3 years at 12,000 deaths per year] = 162,000/.15) = 1,080,000, plus say as many again as in the USA for other countries gives 2,813,333 Jews surviving from within German controlled areas of Europe in 1945.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:29 am)

I have consulted the tables in Walter Sanning's book The Dissolution of European Jewry (IHR, 1983). I have to admit that some of these contain significantly larger numbers of Jews in German controlled Europe from the 1930s to 1945 than in my calculation above. This calculation itself needs to be revised: on another basis using an Excel spreadsheet, I get 4.47 million survivors in 1945 for example.

But let's look at Sanning's data, assuming as a definition of survivor a Jew who lived in a German controlled area between 1933 and 1945. For example:

Page 187: Jews in Europe in 1930s 6,171,502, plus USSR in 1939 3,020,141; total = 9,191,643. So a major problem here for revisionists - 4.5 million to over 6,000,000 alleged Jewish survivors unaccounted for. [Source: census data, various dates.]

Page 191: German sphere of influence contained 5,999,000 Jews in 1939; add 3,275,000 in Soviet Union and Baltic states, total 9,274,000 total. So a major problem for revisionism - up in the Hilberg/Nuremberg region of over 5 million unaccounted for. [Source: Jewish Year book.]

Page 197: German controlled Europe contained 2,738,000 Jews in 1941, excluding the USSR, 3,375,000 Soviet Jews lived in areas later occupied by German troops; total 6,113,000. So around 1.5 million to 3 million Jews are unaccounted for, plus those emigrated since 1933. [Source: "results of this analysis".]

Page 199: German controlled Europe contained 2,738,000 Jews in 1941 excluding the USSR, plus 700,000 Soviet Jews. This would give 3,438,000. Not a problem for revisionists. [Source: not given.]

I have not looked at the basis of Sanning's tables, which are obviously widely at variance with each other. However, I conclude that the matter remains inconclusive on the basis of my calculations, despite the presumable millions of survivors in 1945.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby borjastick » 4 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:37 am)

The search for proof of how many jews were in Europe and thus under German control and potential threat has been around for decades and frankly no matter what figure you start with, within a fairly wide range, you would likely be wrong.

As you have shown above the figure could be anywhere between 2.7m and 6.2m or perhaps none of the above. When I see figures as precise as 'Jews in Europe in 1930s 6,171,502' I am left gobsmacked. How on earth could that figure possibly be accurate?? Was there a central european jewish data bank? No. Was there a central jewish body such as exists for Catholicism? No. And of course we have the age old premise that jews never wanted to be on any list to be counted.

However I would immediately discount all of the so called jews on the Russian list. They were never in much danger if any and we also know that in places such as Kiev many many jews were moved by the Russians ahead of the main conflict.

The only reason for understanding how many jews survived the war period is to come to some understanding or start point as to how many could possibly have perished. Your assumption that about 2.8m jews were around after the end of the war, if I understand you correctly, may not include those in UK and those who were counted pre war in Poland but were not available to be counted or didn't want to be so afterwards.

My view, as shown clearly by my personal sign off, is that 2.8m is a fair amount. I start from the 4m under German control starting point and that about 250,000 - 500,000 perished. The balance were alive and reasonably well but on the move, or in Russia and certainly behind the iron curtain and thus unaccounted for. Thus we get back to a figure of about 4m, but these figures can at best be loose.

What I do know and am very comfortable with, is that there were never 6m killed and never anywhere near 6m in the hands of German forces.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:58 am)

Re the 3,375,000 Jews in the area later occupied by the Germans, Sanning says that well over half were evacuated in front of the German advance. He gives city by city figures with sources. This would explain the apparent contradiction between page 197 and page 299.

I believe, though it's a while since I read him, that he speculates that many of the evacuees would not have survived in Russia, due to poor conditions and deaths in the Soviet army, giving us a Holocaust Made in Russia, though in a rather different sense than Carlos Porter intended.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby EtienneSC » 4 years 1 month ago (Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:10 am)

borjastick wrote:What I do know and am very comfortable with, is that there were never 6m killed and never anywhere near 6m in the hands of German forces.

I think the difference in starting figures depends partly on the definition of "holocaust survivor" used in the 2015 figures. For example, suppose I was a Jew who moved from Warsaw to Minsk on 1 September 1939, then from Minsk to behind the Urals in June 1941. Hence I was never under German control, though I had lived in areas subsequently under German control. Does that make me a holocaust survivor or not?

Something like this story would apply to many Polish Jews, and the second move to many Soviet Jews, according to Sanning - and these are six of his maximum of nine million.

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Re: Survivor demographics post 2000

Postby Tomt » 4 years 1 month ago (Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:46 pm)

So I am assuming that they are basing the 6 million figure between the fact that there was 9.5 Jews in Europe in 1939 and about 4 million afterwards in 1945. So they are basically saying that no immigration occurred between those years. I imagine that a lot of Jews who landed in a new country didn't exactly pronounce their arrival. Apparently we can't trust statistics on immigration.


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