A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal canard

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Hannover
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A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal canard

Postby Hannover » 6 years 4 months ago (Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:26 pm)

In a PM from forum participant borjastick to me, we see this response from Andy Mathis. Mathis is responding to the debunking of Emil Karlsson, here:
Believer Emil Karlsson shoots self in foot & more
I made a separate thread to better expose the feeble attempts by Irrational, unthinking Believers such as Mathis.
Andy Mathis said:
Please tell your little friend,
Please tell your little friend Hannover the following.
Regarding his post mentioning me by name ...
Andy Mathis, completely obsessed with Hannover. Perhaps he's in love with me.

Andy continues:
Actually, two mistakes here. Breitwieser (note the spelling) was charged but acquitted at Frankfurt. BUT, he was tried and CONVICTED at Cracow in 1946.
Acquitted at Frankfurt! Well hellooo & thank you, After Karlsson, Mathis is next at shooting himself in the foot.

Cracow, 1946? Does Mathis have the verbatim transcripts of the trial, complete with defense cross examinations? Nope. If the Communists at Krakow Show Trial really believed Bretwieser was involved in alleged mass murder, then why was he out of jail at the time of the Frankfurt trial?
If convicted at Kracow, why would anyone accept a notorious Communist Show Trial as proof of anything. Only the desperate, that's who.

And he said:
Second, if it was the decision of DEGESCH to remove the warning odor from Zyklon-B, then why did they complain to the SS about the order, noting that without the indicator, they had no patent on the product?
Really? What order? Show us the genuine order.

It is noted that Mathis avoids the real meat of the Karlsson thread, of course. Comments invited.

Also, witness additional routs of Andy Mathis, read these threads:

Believer org. spokesman, Andrew Mathis, demolished in debate

'holocaust' denial article by Andrew Mathis debunked here

Prof. Mc Nally dissects HHP's Andrew Mathis' bogus article

Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis on Zyklon scent removal

Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis attempts damage control

Email from Andrew Mathis (The Holocaust History Project)

Andy Mathis / 'holocaust Hist. Project' Treblinka section

Andy Mathis demolished yet again / his Eichmann challenge

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby hermod » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:09 am)

What [Polish Judge] Sehn omitted from his manuscript was the testimony of the Head of Fumigation at Auschwitz, Artur Breitweiser, who testified that the warning agent in Zyklon had been removed, not at the request of the SS, but at the discretion of the manufacturer, which issued appropriate advisories to the SS fumigation teams to that effect. Thus, here Sehn can be seen as clearly espousing Soviet propaganda relating to the deletion of a warning ingredient in the manufacture of Zyklon, which had absolutely nothing to do with exterminating people.

http://www.cwporter.com/jansehn.htm


Breitweiser emphatically denied that any gassings of human beings had ever taken place at Auschwitz. He steadfastly maintained that only clothing and barracks were disinfected with the gas.

When asked by the presiding Judge to describe the Zyklon, Breitweiser replied: "The Zyklon B was in small, Kilogram weight tins. Upon opening, they were similar in appearance to a crystal substance...always light and gray...later they appeared bluish white. The barracks to be disinfected were first sealed up, windows tightly sealed as well, and then we prepared the room for fumigation with the gas. The tins were opened with a flat chisel and hammer. Then a rubber cap was placed over the can, because otherwise the gas escaped and then one had to open more tins. Then we went into the room and scattered the material around." When queried by the judge whether the gas was mixed with a pungent smelling additive to prevent accidental inhalation by staff, Breitweiser responded: "No, nothing was mixed in. The gas worked terribly fast. I can remember that Unterscharfuehrer Theurer once entered a house which had already been fumigated. (The day before) In the evening it had been ventilated, below in the ground floor, and the next morning Theurer wanted to open the windows on the second floor. He must have breathed in some lingering fumes because he immediately fell over unconcious and tumbled down the stairs, (To the bottom level) where there was fresh air. Had he fallen differently, he would never have come out alive."

This incident definitely proves the fraudulent nature of many 'eyewitness' testimonies which are liberally quoted over and over again, claiming that the Jewish Sonderkommandos would enter the gas chamber only MINUTES after the gas had allegedly done its work. It is even claimed that they were eating and smoking cigarettes!

The incident described by Mr. Breitweiser led to the issuance of a special order by the camp Commandant to the crews assigned to delousing and working with Zyklon. The order apparently was in response to a series of incidents and accidents similar to the one described above. The order itself was reprinted in the Journal of Historical Review, Volume 11, Number 1, pages 69, 70. Dated August 12, 1942, forty copies were distributed to officials throughout the camp. The Commandant warns them to be particularly cautious when entering rooms which have been fumigated with Zyklon B. He also reminds them that "the gas now being used contains less (protective) odor additive, and is therefore especially dangerous."

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Artur-Breitweiser/80989757


Ironically the Polish judges of the Krakow communist show trial would now be sent to jail for "Holocaust denial" in many countries because they stated that 300,000 people, not 1.1 million, died at Auschwitz during WW2. :)

"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby borjastick » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:34 am)

It is me who Mathis is trying to use as his little post box, his access all areas pass to this forum. Why? Because he is scared to come here and debate. Why? Because there are rules and standards to adhere to here and he doesn't want to conform to normality or be confined by decency or even backing up wild claims with er evidence.

The problem with many believers like Mathis is that they cannot step back and allow the truth to seep in to their addled indoctrinated brains. It really is free of charge and liberating to have an open mind on a subject hitherto so entrenched in one's own mind. He should try it. I did.

However as far as my access to him and this conduit is concerned, via my regular activity on youtube (more revisionists should use it as a way of counteracting the lies that abound there), that door dear Andrew is now closed.

Man up and grow some thus enabling you to come here put your theories to the test.

Watermelon or Quiche Andrew?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby Kageki » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:17 am)

It seems like this comes from Joseph Borkin's book:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/zyklon.shtml
There was still another episode that gave the officials of Degesch more than a hint of the dread purpose to which their Zyklon B was being put by the S.S. When manufactured as a pesticide Zyklon B contained a special odor or indicator to warn human beings of its lethal presence. The inclusion of such a warning odor was required by German Law. When the S.S. demanded that the new large order of Zyklon B omit the indicator, no one familiar with the workings of the S.S. could have failed to realize the purpose behind the strange request. The Degesch executives at first were unwilling to comply. But compassion was not behind their refusal. What troubled them was the fact that the S.S. request endangered Degesch's monopoly position. The patent on Zyklon B had long ago expired. However Degesch retained its monopoly by a patent on the warning odor. To remove the indicator was bad business, opening up the possibility of unwelcome competition [FN50). The S.S. made short shrift of this objection and the company removed the warning odor. Now the doomed wouldn't even know it was Degesch's Zyklon B.

"[FN50] NI-1210, memorandum from Dr. Heinrich to Mr. Amend, dated June 21, 1944."

The source being this memorandum from a Dr. Heinrich.

This is the document about how SS warned about the odorless gas to themselves:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p-67_Weber.html
"Zyklon" (hydrocyanic acid gas), a widely available commercial insecticide and rodent killer, was used extensively at Auschwitz to kill typhus-bearing lice. It was used, for example, to fumigate clothes in delousing gas chambers, and to kill vermin in barracks and other buildings.
Commandant Rudolf Höss emphasized its deadliness when not used properly in this “special order” of August 12, 1942. (p. 201) Forty copies were distributed to officials throughout the camp. Höss warned:
"Today there was a case of illness due to slight symptoms of poisoning with Prussic acid [Zyklon]. This makes it necessary to warn all those involved with gassings, as well as all other SS personnel, that especially when opening gassed rooms, SS personnel not wearing gas masks must wait at least five hours and keep a distance of 15 meters from the chamber. In this regard, particular attention should be paid to the wind direction.
"The gas now being used contains less [protective] odor additive, and is therefore especially dangerous.
"The SS garrison physician refuses to accept responsibility for accidents that may occur in cases where SS personnel do not obey these guidelines."



Because of this other order where the SS endangered themselves using the same odorless gas, Bartlett argues that the removal was not for a sinister purpose, but doesn't the question still remain why they did/ask for it to be removed? I guess it hinges on this memorandum by Dr. Heinrich that's locked away in those trial books, but it is interesting. Couldn't the SS have ordered two kinds of gas? One with and one without? Or was there a perfectly benign reason such as for economic reasons (cheaper)?

They did and still used the gas for fumigation after all and Pressac admitted that the vast majority was used for fumigation so one can argue the SS went out of their way to kill people when most of the same odorless gas was still used for fumigation and endangering themselves. Maybe Bartlett does have a point unless Mr. Mathis would like to make a rebuttal.

As for the SS order, since Borkin didn't reference it and rather an indirect source, it's possible it doesn't exist as in destroyed which is plausible so we only have this memorandum from a Dr. Heinrich to work with.

Roger Bartlett
http://codoh.com/library/document/704

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby borjastick » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:10 am)

All well and good but I am guessing that the answers to these questions are in fact very dull and boring. In essence my guess is that the non odour carrying ZyklonB was cheaper to produce and probably quicker to supply. As for the patent exposure mentioned by Degesch this is, in my opinion, laughable. There was a war on, the fact that the SS was using odourless product to kill lice was in no way going to lose the company sales in any other market. How would any other customer or competitor know that the ZyklonB supplied for use in concentration camps was odourless?

Seems like Mathis and his friends are clutching at straws on this one.
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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby hermod » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:41 am)

Kageki wrote:doesn't the question still remain why they did/ask for it to be removed?


Why would the Nazis have wanted to remove the warning odor in the first place? Had any doomed Jew smelled the warning odor, that would have changed nothing as he was locked in a gas chamber with no way to get out. And anyway had no Jew smelled the warning odor, the doomed Jews in the gas chamber would have understood what was happening when some Nazis would have poured pellets through holes in the roof or at least when the Jews closest to the Kula columns would have begun to fall. Removing the warning odor would have been useless. That would have served no purpose except to arouse suspicion among the Degesch workers.

Anyway the warning odor in Zyklon had been removed, not at the request of the SS as in the Holocaust narrative, but at the discretion of the manufacturer. Probably because that was cheaper or because that was impossible for Degesch to produce enough warning odor liquid for big wartime needs.
Last edited by hermod on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby hermod » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:11 am)

Kageki wrote:It seems like this comes from Joseph Borkin's book:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/zyklon.shtml

The patent on Zyklon B had long ago expired. However Degesch retained its monopoly by a patent on the warning odor. To remove the indicator was bad business, opening up the possibility of unwelcome competition [FN50). The S.S. made short shrift of this objection and the company removed the warning odor. Now the doomed wouldn't even know it was Degesch's Zyklon B.

"[FN50] NI-1210, memorandum from Dr. Heinrich to Mr. Amend, dated June 21, 1944."



:lol: :lol:

Who knew what Degesch's warning odor in Zyklon smelled like (except the professional fumigators of course)? And anyway nobody was supposed to survive the gas chambers and tell the world he/she had smelled Degesch's warning odor in a gas chamber. How could the Degesch directors hope not to be identified with the name of their company on thousands of delivery notes for Zyklon B found in the German concentration camps? Wouldn't they first have created a 'ghost company' and written the name of that fake company on the numerous delivery notes for the Zyklon which they delivered to the German concentratrion camps (or at least to Auschwitz and Majdanek)? That seems a logical thing to do.

I can imagine a Jew in a gas chamber saying "That smells like Degesch's Zyklon in here. I'll hold my breath during 1 hour in order to survive and tell the world those bastards of the Degesch company are mass murderers."... :lol: :roll:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby Kageki » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:07 pm)

Pressac:
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0017.htm
Towards the end of the war the percentage of warning agent was reduced because of a shortage in supply.


Mazal:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/zyklon.shtml
Pressac apparently believed that the warning agents were removed from the Zyklon-B because of a scarcity of the material. This does not make good sense to me as there were any number of other compounds that could have been used for that purpose. I believe that Hoess wished to spare his his S.S. staff the distress of seeing men, women and children suffer a horrible agony. Until Zyklon-B was obtained without the warning agent, the victims must have suffered greatly before succumbing to the hydrogen cyanide. The spectacle of victims dying a horrible death affected the S.S. guards. Without the agent, the victims would die quickly, suffer little, and not affect the minds of the S.S. guards.


It seems like it's a matter of speculation at this point. Pressac generally dismisses the issue of the warning gas, but still builds a case for the Holocaust in other ways. Mazal doesn't really acknowledge the fact that the SS were endangering themselves using the same odorless gas. Was it not possible to order two different types of gas? One with the warning agent and one without?

I think it's a fair point that it wouldn't matter if they are locked in the gas chamber, but what Mazal is referring to is the fact that the warning agent is an irritant and would have caused more suffering then without it.

I feel it's undetermined in light of the fact that the Nazis were still using the same odorless gas to fumigate.

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Re: A. Mathis attempts to salvage Zyklon scent removal cana

Postby Hannover » 6 years 4 months ago (Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:56 pm)

Mazal quote:
Pressac apparently believed that the warning agents were removed from the Zyklon-B because of a scarcity of the material. This does not make good sense to me as there were any number of other compounds that could have been used for that purpose. I believe that Hoess wished to spare his his S.S. staff the distress of seeing men, women and children suffer a horrible agony. Until Zyklon-B was obtained without the warning agent, the victims must have suffered greatly before succumbing to the hydrogen cyanide. The spectacle of victims dying a horrible death affected the S.S. guards. Without the agent, the victims would die quickly, suffer little, and not affect the minds of the S.S. guards.
Mazal is trying the 'peephole' canard. Of course, the SS men need not have looked through the phantom peephole if it caused them 'distress' .... IF the claim was true. Also, Mazal is changing the storyline; according to the false narrative the absurd gassings were supposed have been a low stress way for exterminating the Jews as allegedly determined at the Wannsee Conference. Oh the lies they must contrive after telling other lies.
See the peephole canard debunked below.

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DT/gcturen.html
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum displays standard German air-raid shelter door, describing it as the door to a gas chamber at Majdanek
and:
http://codoh.com/library/document/883
examples, note commercial advertisements :
Image Image
Image

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