Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Engel » 5 years 6 months ago (Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:55 am)

Werd wrote:Not to be picky, but as you state, these past lies were to SELL people on a war. In this case of a baby allegedly being thrown against a wall, the war had already begun; when war occurs, so do certain excesses.


True, but then again, most of the atrocity propaganda attributed to the National Socialists only started appearing during and after the war. A case in point would be the self-styled members of the so-called "Sonderkommando." I believe either one of Denierbud's or Eric Hunt's videos had a relevant testimony by one Dario Gabbai and his brothers (who also happened to be former Sonderkommando) which stated a very similar story about targeting crying babies for execution.
"The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us." - Joseph Goebbels

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:20 am)

Werd wrote:Watch again, if you care. He got out of the truck, took the baby, walked up to a brick wall and smashed it and threw it back into the truck. Then got back in and drove again. According to the witness anyway.


I hadn't watched it. Now I have. I had only read your description of that testimony.

Even if testimonies had any probative value (what they are totally deprived of as shown countless times), propaganda offices (no doubt most Western TV channels are Zionist propaganda offices) always concoct atrocity stories implying babies and children against their enemies because such tales always appall average citizens. This is a classic. The examples of the Belgian bayoneted babies of WW1 and the Kuwaiti broken incubators demonstrated that only too well. Both examples were shameful lies, but both successfully sold wars to Western average citizens with an undeniable efficiency. It's as if people's brain was instantly paused as soon as they hear stories on sufferings of babies and children. Emotions efficiently inhibit reflection and atrocity stories on babies and children are highly emotional for sure.

Not to be picky, but as you state, these past lies were to SELL people on a war. In this case of a baby allegedly being thrown against a wall, the war had already begun; when war occurs, so do certain excesses.


Zion is on a perpetual propagandistic war to legitimate the existence of the colonial state of Israël. Lies never stop. Rich foreign Jews go to Eastern Europe and Russia with cameras and microphones, and local people just tell them what they want to hear. Not more complicated than that.

Of course certain excesses happen during wars. But such excesses were severely punished in the German army and I highly doubt a German soldier would have risked a harsh punishment only because a baby, who he could hardly hear in his cabine, was crying at the rear of his truck. Just another stupid Holo-tale. That old lady could as well have said that she had witnessed a flying saucer with a swastika on it come and pulverize the truck and all the Jews in it.

Another weird thing in that stupid Holo-tale for anyone knowing a few things about motherhood. The Jewish mother would have got hysterical when her baby was taken from her, not only after her baby had been smashed on a wall as claimed. That's just how mothers react.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:16 pm)

I was composing a reply to David Cole's latest in this thread, and in doing so, I happened upon a July 31 letter from Kube. David quotes it in full on his website.
http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/5335

He also says this.
Meanwhile, from mid-November 1941 onward, the Reichsbahn sent trainloads of Jews – rounded up in Vienna, Brünn (Brno), Bremen, and Berlin – direct to Minsk, while others went to Warsaw, Kovno, and Riga. At Kovno and Riga the Jews were shot soon after. At Minsk the German Jews survived at first, but not for long: the Nazis liquidated 35,000 of the native Russian Jews at Minsk to make space for the newcomers, who were housed in a separate ghetto, the ‘Hamburg Ghetto’ – indicating the city that the first consignment had come from….Wilhelm Kube, Rosenberg’s general commissioner of White Ruthenia, would record on July 31, 1942, that ten thousand had been liquidated since the twenty-eighth, ‘of which 6,500 were Russian Jews, old folk, women and children, with the rest unemployable Jews largely sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brünn, Bremen, and Berlin in November last year on the Führer’s order.’

You know who wrote those words? David Irving, in “Hitler’s War.” And yet he was still welcomed at IHR conferences and Zundel rallies all throughout the ‘90s.


Mattogno/Graf/Kues deal with it in "The Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhardt." Page 345-346.
The sentences quoted by him should be read in the context of the letter in question, which is dated 31 July 1942:698

“In every encounter with partisans in White Ruthenia, it has been established that in the former Soviet part of the district general as well as in the former Polish part the Jews together with the Polish Resistance Movement in the East and the Red Army men of Moscow are the mainstay of the partisan movement. As a result of this, and in view of the danger to the whole economy, the treatment of the Jews in White Ruthenia is a predominantly political matter which, therefore, should not be solved according to economic but political angles. During detailed consultations with the SS Brigadefuehrer Zenner and the extremely capable Chief of the SD, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. jur. Strauch, we found that we had liquidated approximately 55,000 Jews in White Ruthenia during the last 10 weeks. In the Minsk-Land area, the Jewry was completely exterminated, without endangering the allocation of labor in any way. In the prevailing Polish Lida area, 16,000 Jews, in Slonim 8,000 Jews, etc., were liquidated. The preparations for the liquidation of the Jews in the Glebokie area were completely disrupted by the arbitrary action by the rear army area, which has already been reported to your office. In the rear army area – I was not contacted – 10,000 Jews were liquidated who were scheduled for extermination by us anyway. In the city of Minsk about 10,000 Jews were liquidated on 28 and 29 July, 6,500 of whom were Russian Jews – mainly old people, women, and children – the remainder consisted of Jews unfit for work, most of
whom had been sent to Minsk from Vienna, Brno, Bremen, and Berlin in November of the previous year at the Fuehrer’s orders.


The Slutsk area was also ridded of several thousand Jew. The same applies to Novogrudok and Vileika. Radical measures still remain to be taken for Baranovichi and Hanzevichi. In Baranovichi, about 10,000 Jews are still living in the town alone, 9,000 of whom will be liquidated next month. In the town of Minsk, 2,600 Jews from Germany have been left over. Besides, all the 6,000 Jews and Jewesses are still alive who have been working, during the action, with the units who had employed them previously. Even in the future the largest Jewish labor force will be in Minsk, since the centralization of armament industries and the burden on the railways makes this necessary for the time being. In all other areas the number of Jews utilized for labor by the SD and myself will be fixed at 800 at the outside but at 500 if possible so that after the completion of the action 8,600 Jews will remain in Minsk and approximately 7,000 in the 10 remaining territories, including the territory Minsk-Land, which is already free from Jews. The danger that the partisans will, in future, derive any important support from the Jews will then have ceased to exist.”


The massacres, even in their brutality, were therefore motivated by the anti-partisan war and not by an extermination order of Jews for being Jews.[112]

Interesting. I didn't know old people and children were considered partisans worthy of execution. :roll:

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:32 pm)

This post is anecdotal so isn't "proof" of anything but does, I believe, support the notion that German soldiers weren't the baby bashing/ripping monsters portrayed by the holohoaxers. My uncle was a WWII vet who served in North Africa and the Italian campaign. He was very much a combat soldier who took part in some of the worst fighting in that theater. Monte Cassino and the Volturno River are just a couple of names that I remember him saying.

One story that he told still stands out in my memory after all the years is what he said about the German soldiers. When he was in North Africa one of his duties had been to guard German POWs. He said that several of the POWs could speak English so he became acquainted with them while passing time on guard duty. As Uncle Ben put it, they seemed like "decent guys." He commented that they all told him that he was fighting for the wrong side and should be fighting with them against the communists. Uncle Ben didn't ever say whether he agreed with that or not. He surely didn't have anything good to say about the army or the war in general but I didn't ever hear him say anything harsh about individual German soldiers. He certainly didn't lack harsh words for some of their equipment. His comments about one of their cannons was generally unrepeatable in polite company.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:59 pm)

I see no reason for Kube to lie. I also think that Ukranian woman in that documentary was telling the truth. To think no Nazi ever did anything like that out of viceral hatred for Jews and communists would be ridiculous. It would be tantamount to saying the Nazis were a metaphysical phenomenon in that none of them ever committed any war crimes against any civilian.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:44 pm)

- Has anyone actually seen the original Kube document that we see a 'translation' for?
- Why is the original not routinely shown alongside the alleged 'translation'?
- Where was it supposedly found?
- When was it found?
- Who supposedly found it?

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:54 pm)

Seems to me that someone needs to spend sometime in Minsk to dig below the surface and find out about transports and the influx of jews in the period and the so called mass shootings etc. An investigator doing the sniffing around might just get this job sorted.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:04 pm)

borjastick wrote:Seems to me that someone needs to spend sometime in Minsk to dig below the surface and find out about transports and the influx of jews in the period and the so called mass shootings etc. An investigator doing the sniffing around might just get this job sorted.
Indeed, as my old pal Tommy Moran would say, 'why don't they just get two guys with shovels? '

So many alleged mass graves, yet not a single mass grave as alleged has ever been shown. A big zero.

This is too easy.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Dresden » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:12 pm)

Hannover said:

"- Has anyone actually seen the original Kube document that we see a 'translation' for?
- Why is the original not routinely shown alongside the alleged 'translation'?
- Where was it supposedly found?
- When was it found?
- Who supposedly found it?"


Those are good questions, Hannover; I hope Eric Hunt or someone else can answer those questions.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" -Carl Sagan

Of all the things Revisionists have conceded, I find the "Kube document" to be by far the most extraordinary.

As a matter of fact, it kinda gives "Holocaust Revisionism" a new meaning; it's actually belief in a "Revised" Holocaust.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:27 pm)

Mattogno/Graf/Kues give this as footnote 698.
PS-3428. NMT, vol. IV, pp. 192-193.

Edited to add:

On the other hand, they do say this.
Page 671-672
According
to a report by Kube to Lohse dated 31 July 1942 (Nuremberg document
3428-PS), 6,500 Russian Jews and some 3,500 Jews from Vienna,
Brünn, Bremen and Berlin found unfit for work were taken out of the
Minsk ghetto and liquidated on 28-29 July 1942.1417 The so-called
Gruppe Arlt activity reports gives the number of Jews from the Reich
and Protectorate killed as 3,000 and the date of their killing as 29 July.
Gerlach asserts that following this mass killing some 2,600 German
Jews, mainly from Frankfurt and Düsseldorf, remained alive in the
Minsk ghetto, but that the majority of them were murdered during
“smaller operations from the beginning of 1943 and during the liquidation
of the Minsk ghetto in September 1943.”1418 His source for the figure
of 2,600 remaining Reich and Protectorate Jews is again document 3428-PS.
This document, however, further gives the number of Russian
Jews remaining in the Minsk ghetto as no more than 6,000. According
to a report dated 31 May 1943, a total of 516 German and Russian Jews
had been killed in Minsk from 13 April 1943 up to that date during the
course of an unspecified number of “Aktionen.”1419 Following the statistics
of 3428-PS, this would leave a maximum of (8,600 – 516 =) 8,084
Jews in the Minsk ghetto at the beginning of June 1943. However, as I
have shown elsewhere,1420 there were at the very least some 10,000 to
12,000 Jews still present in the Minsk ghetto at the beginning of September
1943. This throws into doubt the reliability of the figures found
in document 3428-PS, and accordingly we cannot say how many Jews
from the Reich and the Protectorate were still alive in the Minsk ghetto
at the point in time when Kruk’s two informants visited the city and
were briefed by local authorities about the ghettos. It must be stressed
that the original group of 7,000 could very well have been diminished
by a number of reasons other than mass murder. It is clear, on the other
hand, that the number of inmates which they gave for the “Russian
ghetto” – only 3,000 to 4,000 people1421 – was a drastic underestimate,
as seen above. Since the German authorities who, as Myers writes,
permitted this inspection tour to the city “to encourage voluntary
movement of skilled workers from Vilnius to Minsk” would not have
had any interest in providing such an underestimate to the inspectors (as
it might have triggered rumors about atrocities or deportations), the only
two possible explanations are that the inspectors (or Kruk) misheard the
figure relating to the Russian-Jewish ghetto inmates, or that the inspectors
distorted the figure for whatever reason. Hence, while this diary entry
is of a minor evidentiary value, it nonetheless supports, however
tenuously, the fact that a considerable percentage of the Jews deported
from the Reich and the Protectorate to Minsk in November 1941 were
still alive in the city’s ghetto some 17 months later.


1417 IMT vol. XXXII, pp. 280-281.
1418 C. Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, op. cit., p. 755.
1419 Nuremberg document 135-R, IMT vol. XXXVIII, p. 373.
1420 T. Kues, “The Maly Trostenets ‘Extermination Camp’ – A Preliminary Historiographical Survey,
Part 1,” op. cit., section 2.3.
1421 H. Kruk, The Last Days of the Jerusalem of Lithuania, op. cit., p. 570.
Last edited by Werd on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:36 pm)

Werd wrote:Mattogno/Graf/Kues give this as footnote 698.

PS-3428. NMT, vol. IV, pp. 192-193.
Ah yes, the Nuremberg Show Trials. Is the original Kube 'document' produced?

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:45 pm)

Kues seems to believe that the Nuremburg document is in fact the original German one; that it was captured, seized, and put into evidence. If it talks about liquidation by bullets it certainly would be more credible than documents about gas vans with poor German or pedal driven bone crushing machines with even worse German.

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_2.php
Except for the killings of Jews from the Minsk Ghetto on 28-29 July 1942 and the Slonim Ghetto liquidation, which are corroborated (more or less) by 3428-PS, there exists, as far as I have been able to determine, no documentary evidence corroborating the other mass killings mentioned by the reports, unless we count the 15 June 1942 "gas van" telegram. (see the following paragraph) which does not mention Trostenets and only speaks of "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung). Most importantly, there exists no reliable forensic evidence for any of the mass murders.


Here is how one source renders the Kube letter near the end.
The Generalkommissar

for Byelorussia

signed Kube

If he did sign it, I would like to see it compared with any other documents that are supposed to have been signed by him. That is a good point. However, I am curious as to why Mattogno/Graf/Kues don't question the authenticity? Have they seen the Nuremburg document? Is it in fact a captured, German original? Is that why they don't question it? Normally I trust those guys.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:59 pm)

"To me, engaging in complicated arguments about the "content" of apocryphal documents is putting the cart before the horse. To me, the first question is, is it an original? What kind of document is it? Where did the copy come from? What kind of copy is it? And so on. Then we'll argue about what they say. There are no originals, as a rule, especially, no Nuremberg Trial originals, or very few. And no rules of evidence, no chain of evidence. No requirement that original documents be presented." - Carlos Whitlock Porter

"There are no originals of any Nuremberg trial documents, except for a few, more or less insignificant documents. Even the "file copies" are photocopies. Many people have remarked that nobody knows where these documents are. [...] There appear to be many original archive documents (hundreds of thousands of them), but they were not introduced into evidence at the trials. In other words, the rule seems to be: if it is an original, it is not incriminating. [...] I suspect that the original Nuremberg Trial documents have vanished because the documents were mostly forgeries to start with, but they may have vanished for some other reason." - Carlos Whitlock Porter

How many Jews were killed?
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:35 pm)

- If Graf, Mattogno, Kues, or anyone else had seen the original document they would have certainly reproduced it. After all Kues does reproduce some documents which are obviously bogus.
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_2.php

- Think about it. Kues shows convincingly that there are documents that have been tampered with or forged in the Arlt Report, so why would Kues accept Nuremberg doc. PS-3428 which supposedly 'corroborates' claims made in the bogus Arlt Rport?

- Why would anyone claim that an original document was put into evidence when the original cannot be shown? This is an important document, IF TRUE, yet it's nowhere to be seen. What was put into evidence was a bogus, manufactured non-original document so typical of Nuremberg. Laughable in the extreme.

- And Yad Vashem cited as a 'source'? http://www.yadvashem.org/about_HOLocaus ... oc187.html
Dont make me laugh, it's just english text written by whomever to mean whatever they wished. Still no original document to review / compare.

- People must realize that Graf, Mattogno, Kues are not infallible. Generally they do excellent work and support it convincingly with analysis and actual documents which demolish the standard 'holocaust' storyline. But there are moments when they leave the realm of exactitude and drift in baseless conjecture.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:01 pm)

- If Graf, Mattogno, Kues, or anyone else had seen the original document they would have certainly reproduced it. After all Kues does reproduce some documents which are obviously bogus.
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... part_2.php

Well this was issued in 2011 and TECOAR was written in 2012 and finished and issued in 2013.

- Think about it. Kues shows convincingly that there are documents that have been tampered with or forged in the Arlt Report, so why would Kues accept Nuremberg doc. PS-3428 which supposedly 'corroborates' claims made in the bogus Arlt Rport?

Again, Kues' research was in the early stages. To quote again from TECOAR...

This document, however, further gives the number of Russian Jews remaining in the Minsk ghetto as no more than 6,000. According to a report dated 31 May 1943, a total of 516 German and Russian Jews had been killed in Minsk from 13 April 1943 up to that date during the course of an unspecified number of “Aktionen.”1419 Following the statistics of 3428-PS, this would leave a maximum of (8,600 – 516 =) 8,084 Jews in the Minsk ghetto at the beginning of June 1943. However, as I have shown elsewhere,1420 there were at the very least some 10,000 to 12,000 Jews still present in the Minsk ghetto at the beginning of September 1943. This throws into doubt the reliability of the figures found in document 3428-PS, and accordingly we cannot say how many Jews from the Reich and the Protectorate were still alive in the Minsk ghetto at the point in time when Kruk’s two informants visited the city and were briefed by local authorities about the ghettos.


So they quoted from that Kube report in TECOAR to show that they were attacking Partisans and not necessarily Jews just because they were Jews. And that 1420 footnote leads to here.
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... n_camp.php

I am curious as to where the original of 3428-PS is. I am interested to know why if those controlling the documents used as 'evidence' at Nuremburg were interested in fudging facts, would let the part stay in where Kube said they were warring against Partisans. That would seem to indicate the Nazis were engaging in legitimate responses during times of warfare. So why would that be left in if the goal was to remove such kinds of exculpatory evidence? I guess if what Kues is saying is true that many were in fact alive in Minsk, then maybe the trick is that those who were in control of German documents decided to leave the part about Partisans in and fudge the numbers up since THAT would be the place to hit Germany the hardest come trial time.

- Why would anyone claim that an original document was put into evidence when the original cannot be shown? This is an important document, IF TRUE, yet it's nowhere to be seen. What was put into evidence was a bogus, manufactured non-original document so typical of Nuremberg. Laughable in the extreme.

I must admit I was being devil's advocate at the time. I had to go back at TECOAR and find that as quickly as he quoted Kube in chapter seven, he almost immediatly showed the problems with the numbers in said document. So perhaps Kues did it on purpose to further irritate the gas chamber mongers?

It seems to me that Kues in TECOAR only quoted from the Kube document to avoid being accused of quote mining, so that he could later show internal problems with it and cast doubt upon its authenticity. By doing both, he makes his argument stronger. It almost seems like he was a prophet because he expected many researchers in later years to not give up the document. David Irving believes it and apparently David Cole used it. Albiet, to no ultimate success, as I annilhilated his latest reply on page three of this topic: Eric Hunt's response to David Cole / Treblinka


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