Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Moderator » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:30 pm)

FYI:
Various posts related to this topic can be found here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8800

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:05 am)

An article from Der Speigel on the book Soldaten (2012) by Professor Sönke Neitzel and Prof. Dr. Harald Welzer

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 55385.html

"The material that historian Sönke Neitzel uncovered in British and American archives is nothing short of sensational. While researching the submarine war in the Atlantic in 2001, he discovered the transcripts of covertly recorded conversations between German officers in which they talked about their wartime experiences with an unprecedented degree of openness. The deeper Neitzel dug into the archives, the more material he found. In the end, he and social psychologist Harald Welzer analyzed a total of 150,000 pages of source material. The result is a newly published book with the simple title of "Soldaten" ("Soldiers"), published by S. Fischer Verlag. The volume has the potential to change our view of the war.

The recordings, which were made using special equipment that the Allies used to secretly listen in on conversations between German prisoners of war in their cells starting in 1939, offer an inside view of World War II. In doing so, they destroy once and for the myth of a "clean" Wehrmacht."

War crimes/murder

"There are always reasons given for killing. Sometimes the reason can be as simple as someone not walking to the other side of the street quickly enough or not handing over an item right away.
Zotlöterer: "I shot a Frenchman from behind. He was riding a bicycle."
Weber: "At close range?"
Zotlöterer: "Yes."
Heuser: "Did he want to take you prisoner?"
Zotlöterer: "Nonsense. I wanted the bicycle."

"Pohl: "I had to drop bombs onto a train station in Posen ( Poznan ) on the second day of the war in Poland . Eight of the 16 bombs fell in the city, right in the middle of houses. I didn't like it. On the third day I didn't care, and on the fourth day I took pleasure in it. We enjoyed heading out before breakfast, chasing individual soldiers through the fields with machine guns and then leaving them there with a few bullets in their backs."

"Some soldiers are even particularly proud of having killed as many civilians as possible. In January 1945, Lieutenant Hans Hartigs of Fighter Wing 26 talks about a raid over England in which the goal was to "shoot at everything, just nothing military." "We mowed down women and children in baby carriages," the officer reports with satisfaction."

Rape

"Wallus: "In Warsaw , our troops had to wait in line in front of the building's door. In Radom , the first room was full while the truck people stood outside. Each woman had 14 to 15 men per hour. They replaced the women every two days."
Niwiem: "I have to say that we weren't nearly as respectable in France sometimes. When I was in Paris , I saw our soldiers grabbing girls in the middle of a bar, throwing them across a table and -- end of story! Married women, too!"

"Reimbold: "In the first officers' prison camp where I was being kept here, there was a really stupid guy from Frankfurt , a young lieutenant, a young upstart. There were eight of us sitting around a table and talking about Russia . And he said: 'Oh, we caught this female spy who had been running around in the neighborhood. First we hit her in the tits with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet. Then we fucked her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her. Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.' And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I got up and said: Gentlemen, this is too much."

The Holocaust

"In April 1945, Major General Walter Bruns describes what happened during a typical "Jew operation" he witnessed. Bruns: "The trenches were 24 meters long and about 3 meters wide. They had to lie down like sardines in a can, with their heads toward the middle. At the top, there were six marksmen with submachine guns who then shot them in the back of the neck. It was already full when I arrived, so the ones who were still alive had to lie on top, and then they got shot. They had to lie there in neat layers so that it wouldn't take up too much space. Before this happened, they had to turn in their valuables at another station. The edge of the forest was here, and in here there were the three trenches on that Sunday, and here there was a line that stretched for one-and-a-half kilometers, and it was moving very slowly. They were standing in line to be killed. When they got closer, they could see what was going on inside. Roughly at this spot, they had to hand over their jewelry and their suitcases. A little farther along, they had to take off their clothes, all except their shirts and underpants. It was just women and little children, like two-year-olds."

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:35 pm)

Nessie, your previous post about "recordings" is old news that has been debunked repeatedly at this forum.
see:
Hannover @ Channel Four claims it has proved the holocaust

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:32 pm)

Don't forget to insert the secret 'recording' of the Communist...ehrm...'Nazi' prisoner Andreas Pfaffenberger telling how the cruel Nazis made human skin lampshades at Buchenwald, Nessie. That's a jewel of comedy! "Holocaust deniers" like having a good laugh sometimes too... :wink:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:06 am)

Hannover wrote:Nessie, your previous post about "recordings" is old news that has been debunked repeatedly at this forum.
see:
Hannover @ Channel Four claims it has proved the holocaust

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


That supposed debunk consists of being dismissive of it with comments such as " rubbish" "It was more dram than docu in my opinion." "they were laughable then, they are laughable today." "The program was pure Jewish propaganda".

The only part that actually makes a constructive comment is that there is discussion which is hearsay, which the quotes I used are not. Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:15 am)

Nessie. wrote:
Hannover wrote:Nessie, your previous post about "recordings" is old news that has been debunked repeatedly at this forum.
see:
Hannover @ Channel Four claims it has proved the holocaust

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


That supposed debunk consists of being dismissive of it with comments such as " rubbish" "It was more dram than docu in my opinion." "they were laughable then, they are laughable today." "The program was pure Jewish propaganda".

The only part that actually makes a constructive comment is that there is discussion which is hearsay, which the quotes I used are not. Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?
Nessie, your lack of specifics indicates that you haven't read what I and others wrote about the truly laughable 'recordings', there are good reasons why we're "dismissive".
The evidence that they are lying, if they actually stated this silliness to begin with, is included in what was posted, simple as that.

Hannover @ Channel Four claims it has proved the holocaust

These links were included:

The bogus Bruns document

recorded conversations not - 'pumpkins/music directors'

yet another bogus conversation, this one about 'gassings'

Bogus alleged 'conversation' about Babi Yar

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:27 am)

Nessie. wrote:Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?


Nessie, can you evidence only one 'witness' was telling the truth in those recordings? And can you evidence those recordings existed in the first place? Conveniently, the original recordings are nowhere to be found today and only transcripts remain. I don't doubt the British secretly recorded some German prisoners. But it would have been very easy to insert holo-talkings in real transcripts and claim evidence of the "Holocaust" had just been found. Maybe that's why those too-good-to-be-true holo-transcripts were 'found' as late as in 2001.

And testimonies have zero evidential value anyway. So what about the evidential value of transcripts of missing (or nonexistent) recordings allegedly reporting old testimonies from dead soldiers? Begin with finding old mass graves full of Jewish corpses or cremated remains. Then examine their contents with serious archeological methods. And finally, if conclusive, we'll discuss the content of those transcripts and see if they corroborate physical evidence.

The numerous testimonies about the Loch Ness Monster will have any probative value only after a specimen is captured or physical remains are found and studied. So far, the testimonies about the Loch Ness Monster - no matter how numerous and persuasive - are just a research topic for psychiatrists studying hallucinations and lies. Ditto for your beloved holo-testimonies...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby borjastick » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:34 am)

Nessie. wrote:
Hannover wrote:Nessie, your previous post about "recordings" is old news that has been debunked repeatedly at this forum.
see:
Hannover @ Channel Four claims it has proved the holocaust

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


That supposed debunk consists of being dismissive of it with comments such as " rubbish" "It was more dram than docu in my opinion." "they were laughable then, they are laughable today." "The program was pure Jewish propaganda".

The only part that actually makes a constructive comment is that there is discussion which is hearsay, which the quotes I used are not. Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?


Nessie I said that because the viewer was led to believe certain characterisations and situations as applied by the director and producer. They were not necessarily accurate at all. They could play to the pre conception that we are supposed to have about the German upper echelon officers that they were arrogant, cold and cruel. It was a docudrama and full of suggestion.

As hermod has said the transcripts miraculously appeared decades after the event and the real recordings were never heard in public.

Fortunately some of us are not as gullible as you and many others who simply follow what they are told to believe.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hektor » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:04 pm)

hermod wrote:
Nessie. wrote:Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?


Nessie, can you evidence only one 'witness' was telling the truth in those recordings? And can you evidence those recordings existed in the first place? Conveniently, the original recordings are nowhere to be found today and only transcripts remain. I don't doubt the British secretly recorded some German prisoners. But it would have been very easy to insert holo-talkings in real transcripts and claim evidence of the "Holocaust" had just been found. Maybe that's why those too-good-to-be-true holo-transcripts were 'found' as late as in 2001.....

What's the evidence that the supposed witnesses said anything like that anyway?
But suppose this is based on real recordings. How do we know it's not a snitch talking there? I means it's a common method to get others talk by bragging about ones own "deeds", isn't it.

The described deeds would also be punishable for German soldiers under the Wehrmacht's justice regime, which was harsher then the one of the Allies.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Nessie. » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:35 am)

hermod wrote:
Nessie. wrote:Can you actually evidence all of the witnesses were lying when they spoke about what they say they did or heard about during the war?


Nessie, can you evidence only one 'witness' was telling the truth in those recordings?


If witness statements match actual events, the person was there at the time (based on known details such as the regiment or whatever they were in was there) then I would say I could evidence they are telling the truth. Surveillance is acceptable as a form of gathering evidence. So how would you evidence they were all lying?


hermod wrote:"And can you evidence those recordings existed in the first place? Conveniently, the original recordings are nowhere to be found today and only transcripts remain. I don't doubt the British secretly recorded some German prisoners. But it would have been very easy to insert holo-talkings in real transcripts and claim evidence of the "Holocaust" had just been found. Maybe that's why those too-good-to-be-true holo-transcripts were 'found' as late as in 2001.


Work is ongoing and finding new evidence in the enormous mountain of paperwork left over from the war. The original recordings are not the only way check the transcript authenticity. Where they were found, what form they take, are they referenced anywhere else?

hermod wrote:And testimonies have zero evidential value anyway. So what about the evidential value of transcripts of missing (or nonexistent) recordings allegedly reporting old testimonies from dead soldiers? Begin with finding old mass graves full of Jewish corpses or cremated remains. Then examine their contents with serious archeological methods. And finally, if conclusive, we'll discuss the content of those transcripts and see if they corroborate physical evidence.

The numerous testimonies about the Loch Ness Monster will have any probative value only after a specimen is captured or physical remains are found and studied. So far, the testimonies about the Loch Ness Monster - no matter how numerous and persuasive - are just a research topic for psychiatrists studying hallucinations and lies. Ditto for your beloved holo-testimonies...


This is why I do not regarding denier/revisionist evidencing as credible. They reject what does not suit, use logical fallacies in abundance and they demand physical evidence and when it is shown to them and it is not what they want it is dismissed.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Hannover » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:10 am)

Nessie, you said:
If witness statements match actual events, the person was there at the time (based on known details such as the regiment or whatever they were in was there) then I would say I could evidence they are telling the truth. Surveillance is acceptable as a form of gathering evidence. So how would you evidence they were all lying?
- What actual events?

- Give us the proof of these 'holocaust' events existence: show us the physical remains that are alleged, show us the original documents, show us the orders, you cannot.

- Were these "recordings" actually played for the court at Nuremberg?

- What surveillance? Show us the actual recordings, not alleged transcripts written by who knows who to mean whatever they wished.

- The evidence that they are lying are given specifically in my cited posts which you continue to ignore.

- This is your big opportunity to refute Revisionists, but heretofore you rely on dodging tactics not refutation.
Work is ongoing and finding new evidence in the enormous mountain of paperwork left over from the war. The original recordings are not the only way check the transcript authenticity. Where they were found, what form they take, are they referenced anywhere else?
- "On going"? IOW, the 'holocaust' Industry is still trying to spin the utter demolition of the absurd storyline.

- Why aren't the alleged "recordings" available for review?

- Why have they curiously 'disappeared'? What, they were sold on eBay?

- Imagine in a legit court of law: 'Ladies & gentlemen of the jury, there are recordings which we cannot produce, but you'll just have to believe what we tell you about them'. It's called being 'laughed out of court'.

- 'Where they were supposedly found' is illogical since you cannot prove they were actually found as alleged. Basic stuff, really.

- "... are they referenced anywhere else? " Irrelevant since repeating absurdities does not make them fact. Witchcraft & sorcery are referenced in thousands of publications, and of course the rationally minded do not accept witchcraft & sorcery as fact.
This is why I do not regarding denier/revisionist evidencing as credible. They reject what does not suit, use logical fallacies in abundance and they demand physical evidence and when it is shown to them and it is not what they want it is dismissed.
- Please start a thread on your claimed "physical evidence". We want to see the contents of verified excavations. And no, a spoon or a button found at a labor or transport site just will not do.

- Indeed, Revisionist do reject the absurd 'storyline' because those like you cannot prove it as fact as alleged. From the scientific impossibilities, the utter lack of original documentation, the complete lack of a single verifiable mass grave as alleged, to the huge numbers of alleged 'holocaust survivor$' which cannot be so if the claimed narrative was true, on & on.

- Please start a thread on the claimed "logical fallacies".

- I call your claims a classic case of 'projection', being that you project your own inadequacies upon Revisionists.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby borjastick » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:54 am)

Silly us for demanding proof for the claims that six million jews were put to death in an orchestrated plan. How unreasonable that we were and are not prepared to blindly accept the claims forced upon us.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Breker » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:41 pm)

borjastick wrote:Silly us for demanding proof for the claims that six million jews were put to death in an orchestrated plan. How unreasonable that we were and are not prepared to blindly accept the claims forced upon us.
And that sums up the situation. Supremacist Jews just fall to pieces when substantiation of the stories they tell is demanded. It's really not even a marginal situation, they simply cannot provide it. Their only hope is that intimidation, violence, and threats will suffice to ward off the truth. Just look at the receding credibility of apartheid Israel whose lies are being brought into the daylight. A few years ago that would not have been possible. It's not a question of IF Revisionist scholarship is accepted by the general public majority, but WHEN.
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Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:39 pm)

Nessie. wrote:If witness statements match actual events, the person was there at the time (based on known details such as the regiment or whatever they were in was there) then I would say I could evidence they are telling the truth.


Your "I was there" evidential standard is childish and naive (implying lie simply doesn't exist).

If I tell you that I was in a forest yesterday and I've seen a sasquatch, will you believe me only because I was indeed there?



Surveillance is acceptable as a form of gathering evidence. So how would you evidence they were all lying?


I don't need to show they were all lying. YOU have to prove that each of them was telling the truth. You're not at Nuremberg here. Do you know something called "presumption of innocence"?


Nessie. wrote:This is why I do not regarding denier/revisionist evidencing as credible. They reject what does not suit, use logical fallacies in abundance and they demand physical evidence and when it is shown to them and it is not what they want it is dismissed.


Sorry for being a scientist requiring physical evidence to believe in things. You can say I "reject what does not suit" because of that, but that's how serious research is supposed to work. If testimonies alone have any probative value, you must believe in ghosts, alien abductions, the Loch Ness Monster, the Buchenwald homicidal gas chamber, yetis, bigfoots, Marian apparitions, the WW1 German "corpse factories", the Devil, Moses parting the Red Sea, witches, Nazi human soap, angels, sea serpents, trolls, elves, fairies, the resurrection of Jesus, dragons, Wiesel's geysers of blood and the WW1 Austro-Bulgar homicidal gas chambers in Serbia? There are literally millions of witnesses to those things.

And feel free to open a thread in which you bring your physical evidence of the "Holocaust", the kind of physical evidence dismissed by "deniers" because unwanted as you alleged. But be careful not to be quickly "at a loss" (like Hilberg when asked for a scientific report about the Nazi gas chambers in 1985) if you choose to do it. :wink:

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"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

Postby Werd » 5 years 5 days ago (Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:14 pm)

http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/schenk.htm

Włodzimierz Nowak & Angelika Kuźniak. My Warsaw Madness. The Other Side of the Warsaw

Uprising. Gazeta Wyborcza, 08/27/2004.

Mathias Schenk, an 18-year old Belgian served as Sturmpionier (assault engineer) in Wehrmacht during the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising in 1944. Members of his unit were assigned to various SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger platoons as demolition engineers.

In 2002 Mathias Schenk story was made into a documentary film titled Mathi Schenks letzte Reise nach Polen (Mathi Schenk's Last Journey to Poland) directed for ZDF by Dietrich Schubert.

Initial translation: Piotr Dawidko, Grzesiek (Alphabet 76), Grzegorz Hermanowicz, Alfred Światły. Final translation: Elżbieta Kańska.


Here's a creepy extract.

My Wife Sleeps Long, I Try to Count Them All

“Sometimes in the movies, there are scenes from the Uprising, but there is nothing that I've seen. I haven't told that to anybody yet with such great detail. You ask about everything. It’s your right, but everything is coming to life again. Back then we had no idea that those killed will never die, that they will always be with us. Everything happened so quickly. Shouting, shooting. Singular faces. All this is stuck in my memory very strongly.”

(Schenk hides his face in his hands).

“We blew up the doors, I think of a school. Children were standing in the hall and on the stairs. Lots of children. All with their small hands up. We looked at them for a few moments until Dirlewanger ran in. He ordered to kill them all. They shot them and then they were walking over their bodies and breaking their little heads with butt ends. Blood streamed down the stairs. There is a memorial plaque in that place stating that 350 children were killed. I think there were many more, maybe 500."

“Or that Polish woman" (Schenk doesn't remember which action it was). "Every time, when we stormed the cellars and women were inside the Dirlewanger soldiers raped them. Many times a group raped the same woman, quickly, still holding weapons in their hands. Then after one of the fights, I was standing shaking by the wall and couldn't calm my nerves. Dirlewanger soldiers burst in. One of them took a woman. She was pretty. She wasn't screaming. Then he was raping her, pushing her head strongly against the table, holding a bayonet in the other hand. First he cut open her blouse. Then one cut from stomach to throat. Blood gushed. Do you know, how fast blood congeals in August?"


“There is also that small child in Dirlewanger’s hands. He took it from a woman who was standing in the crowd in the street. He lifted the child high and then threw it into the fire. Then he shot the mother."

“Or that little girl who unexpectedly came out of the cellar. She was thin and short, something about 12 years old. Torn clothes, disheveled hair. On one side we, on the other Poles. She was standing by the wall not knowing where to run. She raised her hands, and said Nicht Partizan. I waved with my hand that she shouldn't be afraid and should come closer. She was walking with her little hands up. She was squeezing something in one of her hands. She was very close when I heard a shot. Her head bounced. A piece of bread fell out from her hand. In the evening the platoon leader, he was from Berlin, came up to me and said proudly: ‘It was a master shot. Wasn’t it?’ He smiled proudly."

“Frequently children came to us. They couldn't find their parents. They wanted bread. A small Polish boy brought us food when we were on guard duty. I don't think he was a captive. I don't know. I was then on guard in a cellar of a textile factory. The boy didn't know German, but we could communicate with gestures. When I had, I gave him cigarettes. Passing by was a SS-man. He waved at the boy to follow him. The boy went after him. Then I heard a shot. I ran. The dead boy was lying on the stairs. The SS-man pointed the gun at me. He gave me a long look, but eventually left. This is how matters were in Warsaw."

“Our mascot was a crippled boy. Also 12 years old. He lost one leg, but could jump very fast on the other one. He was very proud of that. He always jumped around the soldiers, back and forth. We said it was for luck. He helped a little. One day the SS-men called him. He jumped to them willingly. They were laughing and asked him to jump to the trees. From far I saw that they put 2 grenades into his bag. He didn't notice. He was jumping and they laughed at him shouting: Schneller, schneller! (faster, faster). The boy blew up."

“I usually wake up very early, my wife sleeps longer. Sometimes in a half-dream I see killed people in front of me. Sometimes I am trying to count those I killed myself, but I can't.”

If Soviets can rape, why not Germans?


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