Croatian 'death camps'

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Scotsman
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Croatian 'death camps'

Postby Scotsman » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:24 pm)

Although not discussed as often, the two Croatian 'death camps' of Jasenovac and Sajmiste are sometimes included in the Holocaust death total, sometimes not, and I had been wanting to read something on these two camps as I have been reading much of the Holocaust Handbook series. But I wasn't able to find much on either in the revisionist world, not even here on the forum except for a single thread.

Has anyone done any revisionist work on these camps? I thought perhaps they were in the Holocaust Handbook series, but they don't seem to be.

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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby cold beer » 6 years 10 months ago (Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:48 pm)

I've seen a video or two with ridiculous claims made about atrocities at Jasenovac by a professor from somewhere in the UK, who I can't name from memory.
I'll post the videos if I'm able to locate them

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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby borjastick » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:43 am)

In Jasenovac, the majority of victims were ethnic Serbs, whom the Ustaše wanted to remove from the NDH, along with the Jews and Roma peoples.[6]


Wikipedia

In other words not enough jews were killed there for them to make enough of it. Or perhaps the stories which came from there didn't quite fit the routine of gas chambers and persecution that they could follow through to the money. After all the post war Yugoslavia and regions bordering it were broke.
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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby Scotsman » 6 years 10 months ago (Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:37 am)

borjastick wrote:
In Jasenovac, the majority of victims were ethnic Serbs, whom the Ustaše wanted to remove from the NDH, along with the Jews and Roma peoples.[6]


Wikipedia

In other words not enough jews were killed there for them to make enough of it. Or perhaps the stories which came from there didn't quite fit the routine of gas chambers and persecution that they could follow through to the money. After all the post war Yugoslavia and regions bordering it were broke.


Yes, it's mainly Serbs you hear from about Jasenovac. Anytime there is a flare up of 'Croatian nationalism' you'll hear some Serbs 'concerned' about it, because it means Jasenovac all over again.

I know much less about these 2 camps, but since they are a part of the Holocaust picture I'd love to see how they fit into the myth. It has the same atrocity stories as the German ones - gas vans, etc but it also has an anti-Catholic twist to it - there are stories that they killed Serbs who wouldn't convert.

I'd like to see the truth separated from the fiction here too. I seem to remember Himmler complained that the Croats were being brutal to the Serbs, or that's the story.

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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby Hektor » 5 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:59 pm)

This metapedia article also deals with Jasenovac:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Konz-Lagers_of_Yugoslavia


Unfortunately not many details. But then what's the evidence for the extermination proponents?

Let's have a look:
http://www.jasenovac.org/whatwasjasenovac.php

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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby Hannover » 5 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:46 pm)

Hektor:
But then what's the evidence for the extermination proponents?
There is none, simple as that.

This is yet another tactic to enlarge the numbers of suckers in which to rip-off. While heretofore the plunder from the former Yugoslavia has been more limited than with other victims, the stage is however being set for more demands of cash. Undoubtedly the claimed numbers will rise, rise, and keep rising until someone stops the scam.

Here's what the US Holocaust Theme Park & Souvenir Stand has to say. Note that not a single reference is given, they simply make it up and expect the naive to believe them. Why should anyone believe those that Revisionists have shown to be liars?

- Hannover
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005449

Jasenovac

The Jasenovac camp complex consisted of five detention facilities established between August 1941 and February 1942 by the authorities of the so-called Independent State of Croatia. As Germany and its Axis allies invaded and dismembered Yugoslavia in April 1941, the Germans and the Italians endorsed the proclamation of the so-called Independent State of Croatia by the fanatically nationalist, fascist, separatist, and terrorist Ustaša organization on April 10, 1941.

Image
View of the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia. Jasenovac,

After seizing power, the Ustaša authorities erected numerous concentration camps in Croatia between 1941 and 1945. These camps were used to isolate and murder Jews, Serbs, Roma (also known as Gypsies), and other non-Catholic minorities, as well as Croatian political and religious opponents of the regime. The largest of these centers was the Jasenovac complex, a string of five camps on the bank of the Sava River, about 60 miles south of Zagreb. It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945.

In late August 1941, the Croat authorities established the first two camps of the Jasenovac complex—Krapje and Brocica. These two camps were closed four months later. The other three camps in the complex were: Ciglana, established in November 1941 and dismantled in April 1945; Kozara, established in February 1942 and dismantled in April 1945; and Stara Gradiška, which had been an independent holding center for political prisoners since the summer of 1941 and was converted into a concentration camp for women in the winter of 1942.

The camps were guarded by Croatian political police and personnel of the Ustasa militia, which was the paramilitary organization of the Ustaša movement.

Conditions in the Jasenovac camps were horrendous. Prisoners received minimal food. Shelter and sanitary facilities were totally inadequate. Worse still, the guards cruelly tortured, terrorized, and murdered prisoners at will.

Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime.

The Croat authorities murdered between 320,000 and 340,000 ethnic Serb residents of Croatia and Bosnia during the period of Ustaša rule; more than 30,000 Croatian Jews were killed either in Croatia or at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Between 1941 and 1943, Croat authorities deported Jews from throughout the so-called Independent State to Jasenovac and shot many of them at the nearby killing sites of Granik and Gradina. The camp complex management spared those Jews who possessed special skills or training, such as physicians, electricians, carpenters, and tailors. In two deportation operations, in August 1942 and in May 1943, Croat authorities permitted the Germans to transfer most of Croatia's surviving Jews (about 7,000 in total), including most of those still alive in Jasenovac, to Auschwitz-Birkenau in German-occupied Poland.

As the Partisan Resistance Movement under the command of Communist leader Josip Tito approached Jasenovac in late April 1945, several hundred prisoners rose against the camp guards. Many of the prisoners were killed; a few managed to escape. The guards murdered most of the surviving prisoners before dismantling the last three Jasenovac camps in late April. The Partisans overran Jasenovac in early May 1945.

Determining the number of victims for Yugoslavia, for Croatia, and for Jasenovac is highly problematic, due to the destruction of many relevant documents, the long-term inaccessibility to independent scholars of those documents that survived, and the ideological agendas of postwar partisan scholarship and journalism, which has been and remains influenced by ethnic tension, religious prejudice, and ideological conflict. The estimates offered here are based on the work of several historians who have used census records as well as whatever documentation was available in German, Croat, and other archives in the former Yugoslavia and elsewhere.

As more documents become accessible and more research is conducted into the records of the Ustaša regime, historians and demographers may be able to determine more precise figures than are now available.
The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of Truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.
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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby Hektor » 5 years 7 months ago (Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:37 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hektor:
But then what's the evidence for the extermination proponents?
There is none, simple as that.

This is yet another tactic to enlarge the numbers of suckers in which to rip-off. While heretofore the plunder from the former Yugoslavia has been more limited than with other victims, the stage is however being set for more demands of cash. Undoubtedly the claimed numbers will rise, rise, and keep rising until someone stops the scam.

Here's what the US Holocaust Theme Park & Souvenir Stand has to say. Note that not a single reference is given, they simply make it up and expect the naive to believe them. Why should anyone believe those that Revisionists have shown to be liars?
...

From the above Jasenovac link the following is also quite revealing:
XIII THE DESECRATION OF THE MEMORIAL AREA

Jasenovac Memorial Park is the largest graveyard in the Balkans. It has been believed for a long time that the Ustasha's crimes committed in Jasenovac presented an eternal warning to the people from these areas. However, that was not true. >>The young Croatian democracy<<, as the new nationalistic Croation authorities called themselves, under the leadership of Franjo Tudjman, immediately after coming to the scene took the Ustasha symbols, and took a series of concrete further steps (seceeding from Yugoslavia, adopting laws with racist characteristics very similar to those of 1941, organizing state terror against the Serbs and so on), thus showing clearly that it accepted the politics of the Ustasha's Independent State of Croatia.

Even before the beginning of the new war in 1991, the Croatian authorities reduced the financing of the Jasenovac Memorial Park and declared >>Lonjsko polje<< a natural protected area, probably in order to turn the attention from the victims to the flora and fauna of the region. Croatian propaganda and Franjo Tudjman himself tried to minimize the crime with numerous articles, >>studies<< and statements, asserting that there were >>not more than<< 20,000-50,000 victims in Jasenovac.

At the end of September 1991, the Croatian Army entered the Jasenovac memorial park by force. According to the Hague Convention on the protection of historical and cultural monuments, the Croatian Army severely broke the agreement by entering the protected area. Although the international public informed about desecration of the memorial park. there was not much of a response.

The Serbian forces liberated Jasenovac Memorial Park on October 8, 1991. During the withdrawal the Croatian Army placed explosives blew up the bridge on the Sava River which connected the two parts of the Memorial Park; they also blew up the graves, destroyed the Museum artifacts and stole the Museum equipment. Due to the courage and enthusiasm of individuals who worked at the Memorial Park, some historical materials and objects were saved.
Now isn't that interesting. It seems Croats are smeared to further the goals of their opponents. Could it be that someone is making up atrocities to gain propaganda benefits from it?

Virtually exactly the same tactic was employed in the Babi Yar video I posted recently here: A Soviet propaganda film on Babi Yar
I just wonder who got less evidence?

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Re: Croatian 'death camps'

Postby SamuelGordy » 4 years 10 months ago (Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:12 pm)

So, hello, I have what you might call "staggering information". I simply translated part of the article from Croatian Wikipedia about the jasenovac death camp in which officially "at least 85 thousand people were killed" according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, and 77 to 99 thousand people killed at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washingtonu.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabirni_logor_Jasenovac

(I'm sorry about the non perfect knowledge of English, some parts may seem clumsy)

In the 1960s, there has been an anthropological research around Jasenovac concentration camp which was to prove mass killings. After a thorough research, only 481 (four hundred and eighty one) skeletons have ever been discovered, almost all of them found to have died from epidemic diseases. Research was from 6. - 17. of april led by Alojz Šercelj to determine where the alleged mass graves are, and to later excavate them. On 100 (one hundred) locations which were believed to be the sites of mass graves, there were 130 probes from which samples of soil were took. In most of the probes no bones or any material which would point to the existance od mass graves were found so the anthropologists who did the research said: - ''We oppened up only those probes that shown to have skeletal or bone material''. The research was organized by the 'Union of joint freedom fighters of Bosnia and Herzegovina', which formed the team of three members: V. Brodar and T. Pogačnik from Biological institute of Ljubljana, anthropological studies, and S. Živanović from Medical College of Novi Sad, Institute of medical anatomy.

In Gradina (nearby the camp), seven probes were dug out and processed, and in six of the probes remains of bones were found, while in one probe personal objects were found. At those six sites which contained remains of bones, it was determined that there lie the remains of 289 victims.

After that, researchers crossed to the other side of the river Sava and dug out 24 probes: - ''In fifteen probes there were remains of human skeleton, and in one probe there were only the remains of clothes, shoes and personal objects. The other seven probes were empty.'' In those fifteen probes which contained human remains, twelwe of them were determined to be mass graves. In the official report it said: - ''At this site, we dug out 192 (one hundred and ninety two) skeletons, 96 female, 70 male, 6 children and 20 skeletons for we couldn't determine the sex. There were very few damaged skeletons so we think the excavated victims all died in the camp.''
The research was unexpected both because of the general numbers and the numbers of damaged skeletons, so according to that more probing was done. 73 probes were randomly scattered over the sites, but without the positive results. In the report it says: - ''This probe was dug out by the sign which said <This is a mass grave which contains three to six thousand victims>, only to be determined that the site contained 23 skeletons.


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