J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Thames Darwin » 3 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:56 am)

Mulegino1 wrote:I've always considered the "Where did they go then?" question an admission of defeat on the part of Holocaust apologists, as it is, indeed, such an illogical question. Illogical, since the apologists claim to know exactly where the vast majority of them went, i.e., to six specific locations - Auschwitz - Birkenau, Treblinka II, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, and Chelmno (you could also add Babi Yar Ravine as a seventh specific location), where they were murdered, buried or cremated or exhumed and cremated. As we all know, there is virtually no physical evidence for this at any of these locations - literally none - and no authentic documentary evidence, the apologists are, as Hilberg replied to Christie, "At a loss".


It's hard to know where to start pointing out what's wrong here.

Most importantly, the question "Where did they go?" relies on the assumption made by your side that people were *not* killed in the locations you list, not to mention dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other sites -- Ponary, Rumbula, Drobitskij Yar, Maly Trostinets, etc. It is not sufficient for your side to claim no one was killed in these locations. You can dismiss the physical evidence if you like, but it is there. The question that remains, however, is that if, e.g., 1.5 million Jews were sent to the Reinhard camps and never seen again, then where did they end up after the war?

In answering this question, it's important to bear in mind the following:

"Jews went where Jews are" is a cop-out. I want to see evidence of hundreds of thousands of Jews ending up in some location contemporaneous with their deportations to Reinhard camps and/or hundreds of thousands of Jews claiming to have been sent through these camps for "transit" only and ending up somewhere else -- outside of Nazi custody. If 1.5 million Jews engaged in this scenario, certainly 150,000 -- a mere 10% -- would be talking about their experiences. But they aren't. You'd think that 70 years after the end of the war and almost as long since the founding of Israel, there would be AT LEAST tens of thousands of family reunifications among people sent to the Reinhard camps. But these reunions haven't happened.

Your side does not deny 1.5 million Jews were sent to these camps. You just submit that they weren't killed there. OK, great. Tell us all where they went. I'll wait.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Hannover » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:41 am)

T. Darwin says:
Most importantly, the question "Where did they go?" relies on the assumption made by your side that people were *not* killed in the locations you list, not to mention dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other sites -- Ponary, Rumbula, Drobitskij Yar, Maly Trostinets, etc. It is not sufficient for your side to claim no one was killed in these locations. You can dismiss the physical evidence if you like, but it is there. The question that remains, however, is that if, e.g., 1.5 million Jews were sent to the Reinhard camps and never seen again, then where did they end up after the war?

In answering this question, it's important to bear in mind the following:

"Jews went where Jews are" is a cop-out. I want to see evidence of hundreds of thousands of Jews ending up in some location contemporaneous with their deportations to Reinhard camps and/or hundreds of thousands of Jews claiming to have been sent through these camps for "transit" only and ending up somewhere else -- outside of Nazi custody. If 1.5 million Jews engaged in this scenario, certainly 150,000 -- a mere 10% -- would be talking about their experiences. But they aren't. You'd think that 70 years after the end of the war and almost as long since the founding of Israel, there would be AT LEAST tens of thousands of family reunifications among people sent to the Reinhard camps. But these reunions haven't happened.

Your side does not deny 1.5 million Jews were sent to these camps. You just submit that they weren't killed there. OK, great. Tell us all where they went. I'll wait.
- "Dismiss physical evidence ... "?
What physical evidence? Please actually show us the alleged "physical evidence". Show us verified excavations where Jew corpses are visible. No dodging at this forum.

2,000,000 Jews were allegedly shot by the Einsatzgruppen in the east into massive pits.
So, is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?

- We've have shown you example after example in his very thread of Jews being moved around everywhere, but you ignore it. That says more about your religious belief than about the facts that we have presented.
Why do you want 6M Jews dead? We bring you good news.

- You and those like you claim that 'Jews went to enormous mass graves'. So then, what mass graves? Show us verified excavations of these allegedly known 'mass graves'. It's you who his copping out here. You claim massive crimes of 6M Jews, and let's not forget the extra '5M others' that is alleged in order to gain support for the scam. Human remains for 11,000,000 do not simply vanish from the face of the earth.

"Talking of their experiences"?
Eric Hunt has found many, many examples of contradictory statements given in interviews given to the so called Shoah Foundation. I suggest you get up on that research. The more these "survivors" talk, the more ridiculous the claims become; which equals more revisionist advocates. This site is full of their impossible absurdities. Of course it's all complicated by generous cash payments given to bogus "survivors" which means that those recipients are not about to get off the gravy train by admitting to lying. They have a huge conflict of intere$t.

- You ignore the massive Jew immigration out of Europe and all the Displaced Persons camps that were loaded with Jews.

- In fact you ignore the countless "survivors", who are testimony to the very fact that those Jews were not exterminated. "Survivors" are 'where the Jews went'.

This is too easy.

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Free Speech » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:04 am)

Since Cole wrote that in his book (and has discussed it in numerous posts since then), I have been trying to find information about population transfers in the Soviet Union. There is very little documentation about it or the numbers don't jive with the train records. My guess why there is little documentation is that many of the Jews who passed through Treblinka went to Gulags, labor camps or perished in rural villages in Siberia. Or the train records are bogus, exaggerated.

So if Treblinka was a transit camp, where did they transit to? Was this a place where the railroad gauges were different and everyone had to change trains?

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby borjastick » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:35 am)

As usual Dhames Tarwin flips things around to suit his convoluted position. Treblinka was to all intents and purposes an overflow camp for Malkinia main station just back up the line which was overrun with the train loads of jews being sent to the east. If the claimed death factory of Treblinka were true it would be no problem at all, indeed it would be amazingly easy for the jews to prove death on such a massive scale. That they haven't says more about the veracity of their claim than we could ever deliver.

Yes it was close to the railway gauge changeover and close to the Bug river, as were the other main camps. That too says a lot.

As said before, the dodging of the key questions by the zionists holocaustian management is very important. Sturdy Colls did an amazing job for revisionism and yet Shame Darwint ignores the facts as presented by her.

The question that is perhaps most significant is this: Could it really be physically possible to murder 900,000 people at Treblinka, in the time frame, bury them, wait a bit, dig them up, burn them all to nothing and get rid of the remains and all in a tiny area of about 2 acres, and without so much as a local or locals knowing anything???

As for why there are no records of movements across the border into Russia, that's simple. Try finding out anything much at all from the Russian interior ministry from that period.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Atigun » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:40 am)

Free Speech wrote:Since Cole wrote that in his book (and has discussed it in numerous posts since then), I have been trying to find information about population transfers in the Soviet Union. There is very little documentation about it or the numbers don't jive with the train records. My guess why there is little documentation is that many of the Jews who passed through Treblinka went to Gulags, labor camps or perished in rural villages in Siberia. Or the train records are bogus, exaggerated.

So if Treblinka was a transit camp, where did they transit to? Was this a place where the railroad gauges were different and everyone had to change trains?


If the giant mass graves existed and still contain the cremains of hundreds of thousands of people, why can't they be located? Did it all just magically disappear? Do you consider magic to be a viable technology? Why isn't any readily available high tech geophysical gear utilized to find those graves? Ground disturbances of the magnitude claimed for Treblinka CANNOT be erased, covered up or hidden. If the mass murder of 800k-900k people at Treblinka actually occurred as described by the alleged eyewitnesses then the evidence CANNOT be hidden. What part of, "the evidence CANNOT be hidden," can't the exterminationists comprehend?

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Hannover » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:48 am)

borjastick:
The question that is perhaps most significant is this: Could it really be physically possible to murder 900,000 people at Treblinka, in the time frame, bury them, wait a bit, dig them up, burn them all to nothing and get rid of the remains and all in a tiny area of about 2 acres, and without so much as a local or locals knowing anything???
No, it would not be possible.

Indeed, there is allegedly 900,000 Jews supposedly buried at Treblinka, so why haven't those alleged remains been excavated, verified, and shown?
Recall that the L.A. Coliseum below holds a whopping 90,000 people, so 10 X the L.A. Coliseum = Treblinka.

Image

So now we know why there are anti free speech laws to prevent scrutiny of the 'holocaust' storyline..

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Hannover » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:43 pm)

Here's more that brings the hammer down on the impossible storyline as believed in by Thames Darwin.

Relevant excerpt from a debunking of quasi-Revisionist David Cole who asked 'where did they go'? Replace David Cole with Thames Darwin if you wish.

source:
'Response to David Cole Regarding Treblinka'
By Eric Hunt
http://codoh.com/library/document/3930/
The Korherr Report

The Korherr report is a report commissioned by Himmler on Jewish evacuation and emigration written by statistician Dr Richard Korherr. The most relevant section is translated below –

V. THE EVACUATION OF THE JEWS

……
All evacuations on the territory of the Reich and including the eastern territories and further in the German area of power and influence in Europe from October 1939 or later until 31.12.1942 resulted in the following numbers:

1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden
and the Palatinate to France ……. 6 504 Jews
2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
territory incl. the Protectorate and
Bialystok district to the East…… 170 642 “
3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
area and the Protectorate
to Theresienstadt…………….. 87 193
4. Transportation of Jews from the
eastern provinces to the Russian
East: ………………………. 1 449 692 “
The following numbers were sifted
through the camps in the General
government …………. …….. 1 274 166 Jews
through the camps in the Warthegau….. 145 301 Jews
5. Evacuation from other
countries, namely:
France (insofar as occupied
before 10.11.1942 )…………… 41 911 Jews
Netherlands…………………… 38 571 “
Belgium………………………. 16 886 “
Norway ……………………… 532 “

Slovakia…………….. 56 691 Jews
Crotia ……………. 4 927 “
——————————

Evacuations total(incl.
Theresienstadt and incl.
special treatment)……….. 1 873 549 Jews
w./o Theresienstadt………. 1 786 356 “

6. In addition, according to data from
the Reichssicherheitshauptamt
there is the evacuation of… 633 300 Jews
in the Russian territories
incl. the former Baltic
countries since the beginning of the
Eastern Campaign.

The above numbers do not include the inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps.


Does Cole deny Jews were sent East through the General Government or Warthegau? Where were the Jews we know where sent East to places such as Minsk, Pinsk, Baltic countries etc., transited through if not through these districts, David?

The term used by Korherr, translated as “dragged through” or “sifted through” was used even after the war.

The below document is certifying in 1946 that Jew Heinz Rosenberg was sent from Hamburg to Minsk, then back, according to him, through Treblinka (but might be Trawniki) He had to have gone through the General Government or Warthegau districts in order to get from Hamburg to Minsk.

Image

Similar wording “dragged through” is used. Heinz Rosenberg “survived” being transited East and back again and was not “gassed.”

Exterminationists want you to believe this “dragged through” term in this secret report to Himmler secretly means “exterminated”. This despite the Korherr report overtly reporting deaths in concentration camps and

Up to the beginning of 1943 exterminationists claim the Korherr report proves 1,274,166 were gassed at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor (in the General Government district). In addition they allege this document proves 145,301 Jews were gassed at Chelmno, in the Warthegau district.

From the original German –

4. Transportierung von Juden aus den
Ostprovinzen nach dem russischen
Osten: ……………………… 1 449 692 "
Es wurden durchgeschleust
durch die Lager im General-
gouvernement………………… 1 274 166 Juden
durch die Lager im Warthegau… 145 301 Juden

The following is a deliberate mis-translation of Korherr from hoaxer organization H.E.A.R.T., often cited by Caroline Sturdy Colls.
see: http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

4 Transportation of the Jews from the Eastern Provinces to the Russian East 1449692
Number passed through the camps in the General Government 1274166
Through the camp at Warthegau 145301


However in the original German, the plural “die” is used rather than singular “das”. This means Korherr is referencing more than one camp in the Warthegau district. Many camps. We are told that the section “durch die Lager im Warthegau” means Chelmno, however that can only be arrived at through a deliberate mistranslation.

So the exterminationists need to deliberately mistranslate this section in order to fit the “Four extermination centers” of Chelmno, Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor narrative.

So not only do exterminations want to point to this section of Korherr and claim it uses code words to describe extermination, they also have to deliberately mistranslate it to fit their false mass-gassing-in-four-extermination-centers narrative.

Here’s Cole’s “Holocaust denial destroying” point -

Korherr makes it clear that the Jews “processed through the camps in the General Government” were NOT, following the processing, “inmates of ghettos and concentration camps.” Transit camp theory, RIP. —David Cole

This is just nonsensical as this would apply to every single group mention in section V, not just number 4. The preceding number 3 even describes Jews sent to Theresienstadt, a ghetto / camp.

3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich
area and the Protectorate
to Theresienstadt…………….. 87 193


Korherr is simply reporting the amount evacuated, in the following sections he describes those currently in a partial list of ghettos and camps west of modern Lviv.

Cole is by extension also claiming that Korherr himself knew these Jews processed through the camps in the General Government and Warthegua were exterminated and not sent elsewhere.

In the following sections VI and VII, Korherr writes nothing specific about the camps or ghettos East of current Lviv or even Bialystok and explains multiple times the difficulty and in fact impossibility of counting those in the occupied Eastern Territories.

The newly acquired Eastern Territories (except for Danzig) are not included in the statistics. These figures cannot be calculated.

In addition, how it was impossible to calculate figures of Soviet Russian Jews in this area –

Moreover, it was not possible to count all of the deaths of the Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern Territories while those in the remaining European part of Russia and on the front have not been included at all.

And another about the difficulties of compiling statistics in the Eastern territories

We have faced almost insurmountable difficulties in the compilation of accurate statistics regarding the Jewish population and its movements in the Eastern Territories since the beginning of the Second World War, which set uncontrollable masses of Jews in movement.

And another

The figure for emigration and excess mortality (the turmoil of war!) in the Eastern Territories and the General Government cannot be checked.

Korherr’s information is vague and incomplete concerning the Eastern territories. He writes nothing to do with where these Jews went “following processing” because according to him, it wasn’t possible to! He writes nothing in sections VI or VII about the large Minsk, Bialystok, Vilna ghettos. We know there were tens of thousands of Jews at these camps. Just because he doesn’t write about them, doesn’t mean the Jews didn’t exist, or disappeared into gas chambers disguised as shower rooms like Cole wants to claim.

In section VI, Korherr writes about “the Jews in the Ghettos”. However, this is clearly incomplete, as no ghettos further East than Lviv are mentioned at all. Bialystok, Baltic states, too, no mentions of the known ghettos in the area the Jews transited East were likely to wind up.

Does this mean the Minsk ghetto didn’t exist or have thousands of Jews transited to it because Korherr didn’t specifically write about it in section VI? According to Cole this does. Because section VI and VII, according to Cole, was supposed to mention where all the Jews transited through the General Government and Warthegau went, and doesn’t mention much information at all about the Eastern territories, Cole wants to jump to the conclusion that they were all exterminated in gas chambers.

So Cole, this doesn’t mean the Jews transited through the General Gouvernment and Warthegau were subsequently NOT “inmates of ghettoes and concentration camps”, but gassed, they just weren’t all currently inmates of the partial list of ghettos and concentration camps mentioned in section VI and VII of Korherr which he was transitioning to at the end of section V .

Korherr gives no report of any camps or ghettos East of Lviv in section VI and VII. So the Korherr report is simply not a comprehensive report by his own admission.

So David, this means the statistician’s report, which essentially stops with detailed figures of ghettos and camps East of modern Lviv, even though we know hundreds or even thousands of ghettos and concentration camps were located Northeast, East, and Southeast of the Bug River, is worthless to prove mass extermination at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor.

Where did the Jews go after being transited through the General Government and Warthegua districts? Likely to one of the recently admitted whopping 42,500 camps and ghettos [see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7693 ], not the 7,000 previously thought.

Image

Because Korherr didn’t have or write any detailed information about the Jewish population of specific ghettos and concentration camps East of modern Lviv, Cole and the exterminationists claim this is proof the Jews were gassed at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. Really!

In addition This quote from Korherr shows the Nazis went out of their way to transport elderly Jews to Theresienstadt (not gas them) at the same time we’re told these “evacuated Jews” (code words!) were gassed.

Between January 1 1943 and March 3 1943 113,015 Jews were evacuated from the Reich including Bohemia and Moravia, the new Eastern Territories and the district of Bialystok to the East and 8,025 Jews were moved to the Ghetto for the Aged in Theresienstadt.
- Hannover

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that crushes the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Mulegino1 » 3 years 7 months ago (Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:37 pm)

Thames Darwin wrote:
Mulegino1 wrote:I've always considered the "Where did they go then?" question an admission of defeat on the part of Holocaust apologists, as it is, indeed, such an illogical question. Illogical, since the apologists claim to know exactly where the vast majority of them went, i.e., to six specific locations - Auschwitz - Birkenau, Treblinka II, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, and Chelmno (you could also add Babi Yar Ravine as a seventh specific location), where they were murdered, buried or cremated or exhumed and cremated. As we all know, there is virtually no physical evidence for this at any of these locations - literally none - and no authentic documentary evidence, the apologists are, as Hilberg replied to Christie, "At a loss".



"Jews went where Jews are" is a cop-out. I want to see evidence of hundreds of thousands of Jews ending up in some location contemporaneous with their deportations to Reinhard camps and/or hundreds of thousands of Jews claiming to have been sent through these camps for "transit" only and ending up somewhere else -- outside of Nazi custody. If 1.5 million Jews engaged in this scenario, certainly 150,000 -- a mere 10% -- would be talking about their experiences. But they aren't. You'd think that 70 years after the end of the war and almost as long since the founding of Israel, there would be AT LEAST tens of thousands of family reunifications among people sent to the Reinhard camps. But these reunions haven't happened.

Your side does not deny 1.5 million Jews were sent to these camps. You just submit that they weren't killed there. OK, great. Tell us all where they went. I'll wait.



It is also a cop out to keep changing the venue of the alleged mass murder when faced with a complete lack of physical evidence of a gigantic killing operation at the Shoah Businees's six most notorious sites. It's a bit like "whack a mole". The more the so called "extermination camps" are discredited as badly crafted fiction, new ones keep popping up. Now the story is there were 20,000 "camps", as if every square inch where a Jew ever set foot becomes a "death camp".

And, as you ought to know by now, the burden of proof is to prove something really happened by providing physical and authentic documentary evidence, not by insisting that one prove it didn't happen. That's called "proving a negative" - very bad form indeed. That doesn't speak well for the rest of your argument, which seems to amount to, "Family reunions never occurred; that proves that approximately 2,000,000 people were killed by dropping pesticide pellets through makeshift holes in the roof; their remains were completely destroyed. Also, the fact that more Jews are not talking about their experience proves that more of them were killed using diesel exhaust and buried in gigantic mass graves for which there are no traces, then exhumed and burned on outdoor pyres by lighting branches under railroad ties." :lol:

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Review » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:06 am)

Hannover wrote:We hear the logically flawed question repeatedly, 'If Jews weren't murdered, then where did they go?'
The simplest response is: 'Jews went where Jews are.'
....


Like the tens of thousands who went to Shanghai, and further on to US, Israel etc. after the war.

In the lead-up to the second world war, about 20,000 European Jews, fleeing Nazi persecution, had taken refuge in Shanghai, one of the only cities in the world for which a visa wasn't required.

"They had no money, no nothing," says Green. "The Jewish community in Shanghai galvanised and looked after them and Horace was particularly active in that. It was a huge undertaking - because there was an awful lot of them and only a relatively small Jewish community."

After the war, the refugees were repatriated to Europe or went on to start new lives in the US, Australia and Israel. Most of them had to transit through Hong Kong to collect their visas.


http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-maga ... -hong-kong

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Tomt » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:10 am)

I have to ask how common was the story "I lost my entire family in the holocaust?" should there even be 10,000 reunion stories even. There was no Internet in 1945. Iam sure people have lost entire families. I am sure close to a million Jews died from disease in the camps and from the war itself. I imagine a lot of Jews died during the time when they were transfer out of Europe or left voluntarily out of Europe. I think it's real easy say one million was actually 6 million. It's an easy claim to make when people are scattered everywhere. It's not like counting documented soldiers who have died.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby borjastick » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:13 am)

Tomt wrote:I have to ask how common was the story "I lost my entire family in the holocaust?" should there even be 10,000 reunion stories even. There was no Internet in 1945. Iam sure people have lost entire families. I am sure close to a million Jews died from disease in the camps and from the war itself. I imagine a lot of Jews died during the time when they were transfer out of Europe or left voluntarily out of Europe. I think it's real easy say one million was actually 6 million. It's an easy claim to make when people are scattered everywhere. It's not like counting documented soldiers who have died.


The question where did they all go then, assumes they were there in the first place. First rule of holocaust research: Question everything...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Zulu » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:11 am)

I am surprised that the important work of Thomas Kues is not cited here. His article about the search for alleged "gassed Jews" is divided in 3 parts.

Evidence for the Presence of “Gassed” Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 1
1. The Importance of the Search for the “Gassed” Jews

According to mainstream historiography, during a period from December 1941 to the fall of 1944, millions of European Jews were murdered in homicidal gas chambers in six camps in Poland – the “combined concentration and extermination camps” of Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek (Lublin) and the “pure extermination camps” of Chełmno (Kulmhof), Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka. Revisionist historians, however, dispute this claim, considering it a theory completely lacking of documentary as well as material proof. In a number of studies, they have shown, based on documentary as well as archeological-forensic and technical evidence, that the alleged homicidal gas chambers in these camps never existed, that the alleged numbers of victims did not perish at these sites, and that there never existed a National-Socialist plan for a systematic physical extermination of the European Jews to begin with. The revisionists further propose that the Jews sent to the “extermination camps” and allegedly gassed there were in fact deloused and then sent away, the vast majority of them to the occupied eastern territories[1], so that said camps actually functioned as transit camps. This transit camp hypothesis is in perfect harmony with documented National Socialist Jewish policy as expressed in official and internal reports, documents on the Jewish transports, and even in classified communications between leading SS members.[2] The exterminationists on the other hand are forced to explain away terms such as Durchgangslager (transit camp), Ostwanderung (“wandering to the east”), Umsiedlung (resettlement) and Aussiedlung (emigration) as verbal camouflage.

While the refutation presented by the revisionists alone is enough to make the orthodox “Holocaust“ story collapse like a house of cards, the proponents and defenders of the officially sanctioned exterminationist hypothesis, while doing their best to counter the revisionist onslaught with censorship and various damage control tactics, keep repeating over and over the same question: If the Jews were not gassed, where did they go?

One might argue that the revisionists have no obligation to answer this question. From a moral standpoint this argument is fully valid. As in a court of law, the exterminationists must prove that the crime they allege really took place – the burden of proof is on the accuser. Moreover, since the revisionists have proven that the crime – i.e. the mass gassings – did not take place, they have no moral obligation to search for the missing, alleged victim of the fictional crime. On the other hand, from a scientific viewpoint the question posed by the exterminationists is also fully valid, even if it usually uttered as a merely rhetorical question and part of anti-revisionist propaganda.

Needless to say, the forced deportation of millions of people would leave a significant paper trail. Even if one assumes – and there is good reason for it – that the archives in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere which are not under lock and key have been purged of such “inconvenient” documents, common sense dictates that there should exist at least a number of minor direct or indirect documentary traces surviving in more or less obscure and unlikely places where the unnamed custodians of official history have neglected to look. In addition, there should exist scores of witness testimonies mentioning the presence of allegedly gassed Jews in the occupied eastern territories, and possibly even physical traces of them. Searching for the “gassed” Jews constitutes part of a new, constructive aspect to the revisionist critique, as the orthodox historiography is not only shown to be flawed, but an alternative reconstruction of events in accordance with known facts is offered (however spotty at this early point in time) – a development of revisionism which Carlo Mattogno has termed “affirmationism”.

The present article consists of a comprehensive survey of the hitherto discovered evidence for the presence of “gassed” Jews in the east, and should be regarded as a stepping stone to further future research. Some of the evidence has already been presented in Jürgen Graf and Carlo Mattogno’s study on the Treblinka camp[3], as well as in a recent study on the Sobibór camp[4] which I co-authored together with Graf and Mattogno. It should be mentioned here that many pieces of evidence were located by the Spanish revisionist Enrique Aynat and the late Belgian revisionist Jean-Marie Boisdefeu. The majority of the finds presented below, however, are published here for the first time.

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... d_jews.php

Evidence for the Presence of "Gassed" Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 2
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... jews_2.php
Evidence for the Presence of "Gassed" Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 3
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... part_3.php

For myself, I always wondered why basic researches on that topic are not made "name by name" by the main Jewish organizations at the International Tracing Service of Bad Arolsen in order to establish the fate of most of deportees since that Center claims to have about 17 millions of individual files concerning all the people under III Reich custody .
For instance, in France, it is the Klarsfeld list of Jews deported from France - mostly toward Auschwitz - and considered as "gassed". This list takes as premise that every Jews deported from France who has never returned there is considered as "gassed".
However since long time time ago Pr. Robert Faurisson has pointed numerous contradictions with such an allegation starting with the fact that most of Jews deported from France were foreigners with no apparent reason to return in that particular country after the war beside the sporadic "apparition" of Jews alive although listed as "gassed".
For instance in his 2014's article on that topic "Combien de « juifs de France » (français, étrangers ou apatrides) ont-ils survécu à la guerre ? Les trois quarts ou les quatre cinquièmes ?" [How did many 'Jews of France' - French, foreigners or stateless - survive the war? Three-quarter of or four-fifths?], Faurisson mentions the dishonesty of Klarsfeld in the establishment of his "list of Gassed" and the lack of cross examination of such basis with the ITS database of Bad Arolsen. If such research was made, its results never were published which is at least suspect considering the time and money available to that investigation.

http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com.br/2014/10/combien-de-juifs-de-france-francais.html

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Hannover » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:02 am)

Zulu:
All of this ties in with the conveniently hidden / removed outbound train records.
see:
'Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355

'Would the Germans deliberately incriminate themselves by destroying their records of outbound trains while not destroying their records of inbound trains?'

- Hannover

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The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

The tide is turning.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more

Postby Zulu » 3 years 4 months ago (Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:42 pm)

I made a translation of the Faurisson's article I mentioned before concerning the Jews of France and the Klarsfeld's list of "gassed".
How many Jews of France (French, foreigners or stateless) did survive the war? Three quarters, or four fifths?

I once found and described errors made by Serge Klarsfeld in both the first edition of the Memorial of the deportation of Jews from France (1978) and its additions, but, first, I have never found, based on evidences, how many "Jews (french, foreign or stateless) deported from France" died in deportation and, even less, how many of them died from causes either natural or other.

The "Wall of Names" at the entrance of the Shoah Memorial in Paris, 17 Geoffroy-l'Asnier Street, in the 4th district, includes the names of all the deported Jews, including those of known survivors. For a "Memorial" or "commemorative monument", the process lacks integrity and it is feared that many visitors do think that this is a list of dead or killed while is only about deportees.

In Vichy-Auschwitz (The role of Vichy in the final solution of the Jewish question in France - from 1943 to 1944), Fayard, p 415, S. Klarsfeld wrote already in 1985, meaning nearly thirty years ago: "Three quarters of Jews of France survived in France at the Liberation " (Introduction, p. 08). This short sentence must be read carefully: in it, the author doesn't mention all Jewish "survivors" but only those who "survived in France." To three quarters survivors so it should be added the Jews who, in the years after the war, have not returned to France (if only because they were not French or that they had decided not to return to the country which had deported them); these went either to European countries other than France or to United States, Canada or Argentina or even other countries, or especially Palestine, which would take in 1948, the name of Jewish state or Israel. It is therefore likely that, if we also take into account these "survivors" or "miraculously saved", one could write, correcting the Klarsfeld's sentence: "Four fifths of the Jews of France survived in France and elsewhere at the Liberation. "

The number of Jews living in France in 1939 is generally estimated at 300 000 and, to the account, the Jewish survivors, just after the war, would have been in number about 225,000 (assuming three quarters of survivors ) or about 240,000 (assuming four fifths of survivors). The dead (for whatever reason) and missing would have been then 75 000 or 60 000. Such conclusions would exclude that the Germans could be able of observing a policy of systematic extermination of European Jews but only once proven the correctness of these figures. Are those who have the means afraid of finding the correct figures?

As it happened to me to ask, how is it that, especially with technical and computer resources available to us today and with the flow of billions earned by the Shoah business, we still have not in 2014 a computerized list of names for all Jews registered in France during the Occupation with mention for most, if not all, of the fate of each of them, were they deported or not? In the past, I unsuccessfully conducted extensive researches on the subject at the Contemporary Jewish Documentation Center (Centre de Documentation Juive Contemporaine). Just recently, I could ask by phone a person from the CDJC who gave me the impression of knowing well his stuff and that told me, regarding only the deportees, that in spite of a new edition, in 2012, of the Memorial ...by Serge Klarsfeld, it still did not exist a "major study" on the subject and that one was "in the dark", a situation which does not prevent the authors who express themselves on the Memorial website (http://www.memorialdelashoah.org) from writing that of the "76,000 Jews" deported, "some 2 500 people only survived their deportation".

Finally, to return to the title of the book published by Klarsfeld in 1985 that I mentioned earlier, I recall once again that the "final solution" is the shortened form of expression designating the search for what was actually called a "territorial final solution of the Jewish question" (territorial Endlösung eine der Judenfrage). National Socialists and Zionists aimed such a solution, but for the firsts, from a certain point, it was excluded that the territory in question would be that of Palestine, and this because of the "noble and valiant Arab people " which we decently could not inflict such infamy (see my article of June 28, 2008, "Heinrich Himmler reports on his January 15 1945 meeting with Jean-Marie Musy about the Jews").
.

Nearly seventy years after the end of the war, it is high time to return to the reality of facts and figures. It was more or less done for many so-called "Nazi gas chambers", for the alleged "Jewish soap", for alleged "tanned human skins", for alleged "shrunken heads", for "the silly story of Wannsee ", for the alleged " massacre by the Germans of thousands of Polish officers in Katyn (and two other places)", for alleged "75,000 shot of the french Communist Party", for the alleged "four million of dead of Auschwitz" and for hundreds other Hithcockian or or Stalinist taradiddles. History will have to recover his rights, all his rights at the expense, if necessary, of what is complacently called "Memory". It will be frustrating for false witnesses, liars, forgers, dealers of Shoah Business, for exploiters of eternal hatred and for perpetual warmongers.

But so will - finally! - give honest people loving "exactitude" and peaceful hearts some respite.

The period is favorable: nowadays, historians of "the destruction of the European Jews" give less and less room for the magic Nazi gas chambers, a "weapon of crime" never discussed or even view, never technically represented. Recently, the sensational discoveries made by Israelis, about some "Nazi gas chambers remains" at the Sobibor transit camp soon bursted like bubbles in the sun or as, in Paris, the play by Bernard-Henri Lévy. As for the stagings of Father Patrick Desbois with his "Holocaust by bullets", its 800 graves and its 1.5 million Jews shot but with zero, exactly zero corpse exhumed and examined, it will disappear from our screens and should end in the dustbin of the history. Certainly the refrain of the Memory and its tam-tam will continue but the spell is broken. Younger generations don't bit.
And the best of the Internet will help to clean up the Augean stables.

Robert Faurisson. Thursday, October 16, 2014
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com.br/2014/10/combien-de-juifs-de-france-francais.html


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