Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
I post this, because I deem it a good summary on how the Holocaust Believers do generally argue, without any regard for the facts and logic that is.
The first thing you should notice about this video is at 19 seconds in you will see:
Here for one reason: Killin' Nazis.
Anyway, some quotes:
"How big of an asshole do you have to be to believe the holocaust didn't happen? Not only are you straight up ignoring an histsorical consensus based on mountains of evidence...It defies the scientific method...it ignores and distorts scientific evidence..."
I for one would like to see the mountain of scientific evidence gathered by way of the scientific method that proves the existence of just one mass grave at Babi Yar, Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka.
That should be a pretty easy thing to do for such a smart guy like Steve who has so much time on his hands.
Edited to add:
According to Steve Shives, those who simply ask to see the phantom "mountain of scientific evidedence" for the existence of mass graves are assholes who are defying the scientific method and ignoring and distorting scientific evidence, and thus, "denying" said phantom evidence.
But how can I defy, ignore, distort and thus "deny" that which the true believers cannot even show me?
Why should I be called an asshole and told to go fuck myself when all I'm asking is to see this so-called "mountain of evidence" allegedly gathered by way of the scientific method?
And why does his "scientific method" in this case need laws to prevent scrutiny of it's method and it's science?
What's with his weird desire for 6M dead Jews? Why doesn't he welcome research which shows that 6M Jews were not murdered?Only lies need the protection of government, truth can stand on it's own.
- Thomas Jefferson
I would love to see this bigot, knuckle dragger debate here. The schmuck is in over his head.
The tide is turning and Shives proves it.
Add to that the fact that he offers nothing to support his claims and must pepper his presentation with expletives and ad hom's and you have a completely worthless argument.
There is no evidence for the holocaust; only publicity!
He has also pontificated on 911, Ron Paul, Jesus Christ, Sandy Hook and many more matters that he wants to make important. I think he is trying to make a name for himself as a serious contender to Alex Jones but the problem is he isn't clever enough. The other difference is he has to have a base from which to start his rantings, Jones tends to, this idiot doesn't.
To start as he does on this one about revisionism with a deliberate position of claiming there is absolute scientific fact by the ton to support the holocaust claims is obtuse at best. He needs his meds and perhaps a hot bath and an hour in front of the tv watching Batman...
Ignore him like most people do because you know if he was ever in the same room as you he would lose the argument immediately and then start shouting abuse.
It seems he portrays himself as an "expert" on several subject. I also first thought he was Jewish, but I don't think he is. Just some moron trying to sound smart and his verbal ability helps to cover up for his lack of actual knowledge and intelligence.borjastick wrote:I have watched a number is this buffoon's presentations on youtube and they are as annoying as they are without substance. My guess is he is an attention seeking jew who chose the holocaust as an obvious avenue to explore and abuse people with.
I was reminded of the super-Skeptic Michael Shermer first.borjastick wrote:He has also pontificated on 911, Ron Paul, Jesus Christ, Sandy Hook and many more matters that he wants to make important. I think he is trying to make a name for himself as a serious contender to Alex Jones but the problem is he isn't clever enough. The other difference is he has to have a base from which to start his rantings, Jones tends to, this idiot doesn't.
He's knitting assertions to one another. For examples he claims claims Holocaust supported by documents. "Mein Kampf" etc. - We know this is merely innuendo.borjastick wrote:To start as he does on this one about revisionism with a deliberate position of claiming there is absolute scientific fact by the ton to support the holocaust claims is obtuse at best. He needs his meds and perhaps a hot bath and an hour in front of the tv watching Batman...
At ~ 3:30 he asserts there are "Numerous scientific studies" he claims show "concentrations of cyanide" consistent with lethal amounts of Zyklon B"
He also asserts the presents of holes for inserting Zyklon B.
Now, what "numerous" scientific studies might that have been? The Cracow report doesn't assert massive presence of cyanides, but rather tries to come up with excuses for their absence.
borjastick wrote:Ignore him like most people do because you know if he was ever in the same room as you he would lose the argument immediately and then start shouting abuse.
I take him for the type that talks down any rational debate and then thinks he won it.
To me he's interesting, because he argues like your general believer minding to argue for the Holocaust.
In other words, this guy Steve Shives knows how to speak and use big words, like many self styled college know it all types, but otherwise, he is very short on actual knowledge. Mountains of evidence? He clearly does not know what he is talking about. So much has been faked and also obtained by torture. I bet he knows nothing about the latter. An ignoramus in a five minute video is just that.
Hey here are five stupid things about holocaust denial.
1. It seeks to exonerate Hitler and the nazis.
Strawman. Revisionist Ryan Dawson and revisionist Michael Hoffman and revisionist Anthony Migchels disagree with other revisioinsts about Hitler and nazi-ism. Don't paint all holocaust investigators with one brush. That would be like the neo nazis you are scrutinizing painting all jews with one brush. Try not to be a hypocrit right off the bat. I guess you can't help it since you are clearly ignorant of many key revisionist sources. You can't even name what you have read and what allegedly is the source that successfully counters it.
How big of an asshole
do you have to be to beleive the holocaust didn't happen. Not only are you straight up ignoring historical consensus
argument from authority
based on mountains of evidence, and more of that in a second, but you're letting Hitler and his regime off the hook for one of the most horrific crimes against humanity ever perpetrated. Who sides with the nazis? Other nazis, mostly i guess. And your bottom shelf ten bucks a jug dumbasses.
In fact, I bet those two groups have a lot of overlap.
2. It defies the scientific method.
I've read and listened to a fair amount of the bilge vomitted forth by holocaust deniers over the years. Not once have I ever encountered someone who convinced me that he arrived at his conclusion that the holocaust never happened through an honest and unbiased examination of the evidence. Holocaust deniers, like creationists, like truthers, like conspiracy theorists of all types start with their conclusion and then shape their theories so that the evidence appears to point towards it. This is what serious investigators and legitimate historians refer to as the wrong way,.
Projection as you will see below.
3. It ignores eyewitness testimony and historical documents.
Holocaust deniers like to crow that no one has found an official order from Hitler to carry out the holocaust. But for that point to be convincing, you have to ignore the numerous other surviving third reich documents that suggest not only was the holocaust being carried out but it was Hitler's idea and it was being done with his authority.
You said you would have more. Where is it? No links in your video description are present.
We have statements from Hitler's top lieutenants including Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler indicating Hitler had ordered the extermination of the Jews.
If the Posen speech was not an audio forgery by the allies, which it could be like some entries in Goebbels' diaries, it certainly is based on minstranslations which mattogno handles in his big new book, of which there are plenty. Mattogno in his new 1500 page book, not only corrects bad translations of Polish that have existed for over half a century now, he also shows isolated statements in wider contexts and shows how even if the translations into rough English language are correct, they are also poetic and filled with rhetoric. By the way, we also have many records of transports of Jews OUT of places like Treblinka. They're also in Carlo mattogno's book on the Treblinka camp.
And we have Hitler's own statements from Mein Kampf
Inadmissable as scientific evidence
and other sources where he makes his intention to annihilate the Jews as clear as it can be. According to legitimate modern historians, the absense of an explicit order to carry out the holocaust is due to the fact that Hitler avoided making such an order to avoid a public protest of the policy in Germany, or to the fact that the order existed but hasn't been found for some reason, or was destroyed with other documents before the third reich fell to the allies at the end of the war.
all arguments from ignorance. Not only that but you are making excuses for the lack of a written order. Hmmmm. Let's just throw your words back in your face shall we? Holocaust gas chamber theorists "start with their conclusion and then shape their theories so that the evidence appears to point towards it. This is what serious investigators and legitimate historians refer to as the wrong way." In case you haven't figured it out, Germar Rudolf and Carlo Mattogno are serious investigators. They have been to archives, studied documents and conducted studies. Hell, their books are apparently good enough to have their adversaries at the holocaust controversies blog quote documents for their cut and paste manifesto that are reproduced in Mattogno's books because he is the only historian to have managed to get editors to put into English certain documents. Naturally, they quote mined and didn't give credit. Sp mattogno had to spank them for it over and over again in his new 1500 page book discussed here.
4. It ignores and distorts scientific evidence.
Rehash of #2. Secondly, books of Mattogno and Rudolf which show the distortions of Green and Zimmerman aside, even the work of David Cole shows the distortions of those who defend the orthodox version of the holocaust narrative in Germany in the forties. Check his famous 46 questions essay.
One of the most stupid ad hominem and offensive appeal to emotion claims is Jews weren't actually killed in gas chambers at death camps like Auschwitz, Sobibor and Treblinka. Some deniers claim that what modern historians call gas chambers were buildings used for sanitation and delousing inmates, not for mass murder. But for this to be credible you have to not only ignore numerous scientific studies which have found concentrations of cyanide consistent with lethal amounts of the pesiticde Zyklon B being present, but also the archaeological and photographic evidence establishing that bulidings used as gas chambers, had square holes cast into their concrete roofs through which Zyklon B could be introduced into the building without endangering those outside. These buildings were designed and built for the specific purpose of exterminating people. It is a fact.
Sorry but Green and Zimmerman are frauds in terms of their "cyanide chemistry" as well as alleged holes in the roof as exposed in AUSCHWITZ LIES and in AUSCHWITZ THE CASE FOR SANITY. Rudolf also fixed the mistakes of Leuchter's work and in fact strengthened it.
5. It both originates from and feeds into anti semitic conspiracy theories.
anti semitism is the cause and sustaining force of holocaust denialism.
Confusing correlation and causation. maybe some people dislike Jews and Zionists once they find out how far they will go to lie and then attack free speech to cover up said lies. Anti semitism can be earned because Jews are not perfect. Unfortunately as you will see in the movie DEFAMATION, young Jews are brainwashed into thinking the world hates them and wants another Hitler to come. But Norman Finkelstein stepped in and said the holocaust is being used improperly and not being used to teach anything proper to the younger generation of jews. He is Jewish but nobody listens to him or wants to acknowledge him. Perhaps it's because he was so enraged about hucksters hoarding German and Swiss reparations for themselves and keeping it from ACTUAL survivors of the second world war under Germany, that he wrote a book telling the whole world about it for which the Jewish community has never forgiven him for his book THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY. You can read more here if you want about these disgusting jews who are apparently betraying their own people.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.2 ... f-1.259200
http://nypost.com/2013/11/04/fraudster- ... st-scheme/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 52,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/survivors-p ... h-1.226913
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... xWRBamSkec
But it is also sustained by denialism. It is like a dog that lives from eating its own shit.
ad hominem noted
The consensus seems to be that Jews invented the holocaust as a pretext for the creation of the state of Israel. Yeah that makes sense. They sell the entire world an imaginary genocide so they can make for themselves a tiny country in one of the shittiest parts of the world where all their neighbours immediatly swear to wipe them off the map.
Why don't you complain to the Zionists who not only made life hell for Jews in Germany but also in the dirty Zionist underground who blew up ships in the water with Jews in them or blew up jewish homes and synagogues in Iraq to pin a flase flag attack on Muslims to convince terrified Jews (who were always a small minority and never made some alleged empty desert bloom once only they arrived) to move to Palestine and push the arabs out.
Doesn't really say much for that feared Jewish intellect does it?
Sounds like you are implying Jews and Zionists are all the same. Isn't that what neo nazis do? Now who's the alleged bigot? And by asking questions that have already been answered by suppressed historians doesn't speak much for your intellect either. And you still do not specify what you have read that is allegedly bulletproof. You know what they say about dogs that bark the loudest...
In fact it sounds like the Jews were better off before they made up the holocaust and created Israel.
Maybe Germany wouldn't have turned against them were it not for things like this and this and this
When they were merely in control of the fate of the entire world. Which they still are, apparently, from what I've been told.
Jews manage the media. They don't own it. Never have.
In fact there is probably some shit for brains neo nazi who is convinced I made this video to kiss up to my Jewish masters. In which case, I have to ask do you think this may be worth a raise? Probably not. You know how tight those people are with money.
You would never be selected because you do not even come close to a solid scientific refutation. You can summarize what you read without specifying all you want, but it offers very little, if anything at all.
In all seriousness, if there are any neo nazis watching this, go fuck yourselves.
ad hominem noted again. By the way, do you think these Jewish revisionists are self haters, or honest investigators who also find something wrong with the exaggerated holocaust narrative? And why is it that you gas chamber mongers never seem to want to shine the light on the hypocrisy of Michael Shermer's debating style when it comes to the holocaust?
As Hannover says, this is too easy.
His logic is indeed more then once flawed and so are his facts.
. But for this to be credible you have to not only ignore numerous scientific studies which have found concentrations of cyanide consistent with lethal amounts of the pesiticde Zyklon B being present,...
is false, as I have to say again, there are no such studies that claim such vast amounts of cyanide unless they are kept secret for some obscure reason. The debate was rather why there is such an "absense" of cyanides in the morgues, which exterminationists claim were gas chambers.
Werd wrote:I hope that some people who do a search for him on the internet will pull up this topic within the first few results and hopefully get a decent understanding of revisionism. What it is. What it is not. And also a glimpse into the mind of some believers who clearly have not done their homework and don't even have the guts to even state what 'homework' they allegedly have done. I guess they don't want to subject their sources to scrutiny.
If you google for 'Steve Shives Holocaust", this thread is the first result to come up right now .
I have tried using a new browser and anonymiser software and it still comes top for me, but you have to try this on something like a public library computer to be sure.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests