Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

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fountainhead
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Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby fountainhead » 6 years 1 month ago (Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:47 pm)

Forgive me if I'm missing something big - I haven't been around here in a while and I still consider myself a learner when it comes to Holocaust revisionism. It seems that a lot of the accusations and supposed evidence for the Holocaust was supplied by the Soviets, ostensibily for revenge and to score a propaganda victory. So wouldn't there be many ex-Soviets who were complicit in creating the myth (For example, whoever was responsible for building the fake chimney at Auschwitz)? I would even think it would be easier for Russian revisionists to come forward with the truth because they aren't as much under the watchful eye of the politically correct Western media. But I haven't heard of any in the few years I've been doing research. Do any of you know why?
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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby hermod » 6 years 1 month ago (Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:34 pm)

Maybe today's Russians are more interested in finding the truth about real Soviet crimes than about nonexistent Nazi crimes. :?
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby neugierig » 6 years 1 month ago (Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:48 pm)

Fountainhead, you must remember that “The Great Patriotic War’ is still the glue that holds this vast Russian empire together. “The Holocaust” is something Russians are not really interested in, from what I understand. There are however efforts made to undermine the official version. One historian, Marina Sorokina, published an article in Kritika, titled People and Procedures. Sorokina does not question “The Holocaust” as such, but makes mince-meat out of the reports filed by this Extraordinary State Commission, established by the Soviets in 1942. And it is the reports by that commission that were used at the IMT.

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 1 month ago (Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:16 pm)

I find this topic interesting. And welcome to this forum, fountainhead.

I believe the Soviets (along with the 'Allies') engaged in some of the biggest atrocities in modern history. They will cling to whatever is necessary to deflect from that fact, The 'holocaust' storyline acts as a shield for them. However, they do have a rebellious youth which appears to be getting wise.

Times are changing, the truth is emerging, surely.

The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby neugierig » 6 years 1 month ago (Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:40 pm)

I agree Hannover, the younger generation seems to be interested in what really happened.

Russian historians are also taking a more critical look, but we here in the west will not hear this. Putin is an enigma, he knows what happened but is hesitant. Or is he and not just one of the players? The afore mentioned Marina Sorokina tells us that archives are still locked, why?

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby Mkk » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:49 am)

The event now known as "the Holocaust" was never really a part of the Russians' consciousness. Jews were one victim group, among many other Eastern Europeans (and eventually also [East] Germans - Soviets put out propaganda pointing out Allied bombing campaign of WW2 for example). It wasnt until the 60s (Eichmann trial) and late 70s (PBS show etc.) that "the Holocaust" emerged as a free-standing thing rather than just another alleged German war crime of WW2.

Even if the Holocaust is true, it pales in significance to Russians to the losses of the USSR - around 30 million people killed, many more wounded, so many towns, cities, infrastructure etc. destroyed.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:02 pm)

Try:
http://codoh.com/library/document/1545
As always, Google is our friend:
http://ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n4p36_Weber.html
There is also some information on Russia (and other former Soviet countries) in chapter 5 of this (non-revisionist) publication:
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/shop/rewriting-history.pdf

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby neugierig » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:55 pm)

You are right, MKK, “The Holocaust” had not been constructed yet, that took time. At the IMT, the Russian thugs, masquerading as prosecutors, spoke of ‘peaceful Soviet citizens’ for the most part when blaming Germans for crimes largely committed by the NKVD. Some realized this, and in 2003 an article appeared by Alexander Victor Prusin, titled “Fascist Criminals to the Gallows!”
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/holocaust_ ... rusin.html

Prusin tries hard to convince us that the Russians were aware of what later was to become “The Holocaust”, he fails however. On p.3 he tells us:

“In the international arena, the Soviet government denounced Nazi atrocities committed in the Soviet Union and highlighted the mass murder of Jews. The Soviets appeared to be well informed about the Holocaust, and the Soviet press often reported its most notorious instances, such as the massacre at Babi Yar.” (my emphasis)

“Appeared to be”? No. On pp.6/7 he has to admit:

“The omission of mention of the Holocaust from the hearings in Krasnodar and Khar'kov reflected the Allies' ambiguous attitude towards the murder [End Page 6] of Jews. The Moscow Declaration, for example, mentioned the Holocaust only in passing as "crimes committed against Poland." For the United States and Britain, as for the Soviet Union, the main task of the war was to defeat Germany, and therefore the notion of the Germans as the aggressors received much more attention from politicians in the West than did war crimes and crimes against humanity. 28 Similarly, the Soviet government considered Jewish-centered publicity to be undesirable. Instead, the Krasnodar and Khar'kov trials were intended to demonstrate Nazi plans to destroy the entire "Soviet people" regardless of ethnic distinction.”

Sorry, but no cigar, for there is no mention of “The Holocaust” in the Moscow Declaration. Russian historians are not interested, they do try however to set the record straight re. the myth of the “Great Patriotic War”.

As for the destruction, Marina Sorokina details some of the destruction left behind by the retreating Soviet troops, ditto for the ‘Action and Situation Reports issued by the Einsatzgruppen. Loss of live? Yes, there was a war on and Suvorov tells us about the disregard for Russian life, Zhukov the main criminal (Schukow, Lebensweg über Leichen). I talked to a German officer here in Canada, he told me that Russian soldiers kept advancing right into machine gun fire, German soldiers vomiting because of the butchering, but it was kill or be killed. The political commissars threatened any retreating troops with machine guns, the poor Russian soldiers also had no choice.

But this is of course dismissed by ‘historians’, it is easier to just blame the Germans for everything.

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Wilf

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:31 pm)

Welcome back Neugierig! Hadn't seen you in awhile here.

I think in countries really involved with being hit by direct German military operations (Poland, USSR) it's way uncooler than even here in USA to be a revisionist.

Just a couple years ago there was a Polish revisionist and some people started making his life hard and he eventually committed suicide. There's a thread here about him somewhere.

In USSR and Poland the political pressure has got to be even way more than USA, and here it's a lot. Not to mention illegal in those countries. It's illegal in Russia isn't it?

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby spaceboy » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:50 pm)

When doing a Google search for "Is holocaust denial illegal in Russia?", the first thing that came up for me was this article from Russia Today:

http://rt.com/politics/denial-holocaust ... ussia-853/

There was a proposed bill from March of last year that suggested up to five years in prison for denying the holocaust or portraying Nazis as heroes. The sponsor of the bill was Boris Shpigel. And on a side note, I thought this was interesting, according to his Wikipedia page, "On Spiegel's initiative, monuments of Soviet Red Army soldiers have been erected in the Israeli city of Netanya" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Spiegel

Not sure what the outcome of that bill was though.
Last edited by spaceboy on Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby neugierig » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:00 pm)

Thank you, Carto’s Cutlass Supreme, this getting old thing, with all that it entails, is the reason for my spotty postings.

A while back I received a letter from an acquaintance, who was on his way to Russia. He wrote that WWII revisionism is alive and well in Mother Russia, in spite of the efforts by Putin & Co to hang on to the status quo. I hope to hear more from him upon his return.

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Wilf

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby fountainhead » 6 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:10 pm)

Thanks everyone for the links. It does seem that there are a few Russians who question the exterminationist story, which is good. But I guess what I was really leaning towards is that there might be Russian workers, soldiers or former members of that commission discussed by Sorokina still alive who could come out and admit that they fabricated a lot of their findings in order to villify the enemy or cover up for the Soviets' own crimes. Or someone who could admit working on the fake chimney, zyklon B induction holes, etc. at Auschwitz. I mean, it's not even disputed anymore that the Soviets built those. Perhaps none of them are still alive?

But from what I read in the article on Sorokina, it sounds like it's still a sensitive issue for the Russians. So, while the Holocaust of the Jews may not be the most important event of the war for them, I guess it is inextricably linked to the other myths conjured up by the Soviets that are important or embarrassing to them.
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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby EtienneSC » 6 years 1 month ago (Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:29 am)

fountainhead wrote:Thanks everyone for the links. It does seem that there are a few Russians who question the exterminationist story, which is good. But I guess what I was really leaning towards is that there might be Russian workers, soldiers or former members of that commission discussed by Sorokina still alive who could come out and admit that they fabricated a lot of their findings in order to villify the enemy or cover up for the Soviets' own crimes.

Evidence provided by the Romanian Securitate in the extradition case in the USA of Romanian Archbishop Trifa was later questioned. Apparently some KGB involvement in the case is discussed in the book Red Horizons by Ion Pacepa (1990). You might also consult Soviet Evidence in North American Courts by S. Paul Zumbakis (1986). However, I can't vouch for the quality of evidence in these books and they appear to relate to well after the war.

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby Mkk » 6 years 1 month ago (Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:33 pm)

for there is no mention of “The Holocaust” in the Moscow Declaration.

The Moscow Declaration "on German atrocities" is rather vague. All it does is claim German atrocities were happening and repeat the Allies' intention to defeat Germany. For some reason or another this document is reproduced at the start of the NMT trial records.

Poland was mentioned above - I've had a couple of friends from Poland and my understanding is that both alleged crimes against Jews and ethnic Poles are basically amalgamated together in their national consciousness.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Why aren't there more Russian revisionists?

Postby ovd1965 » 6 years 1 month ago (Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:26 pm)

I am german and Putin was living in Germany and he is a clever man. I believe , he knows discussions about guilty , review history could cause an atmosphere of self hating , dividing the nation and so on. he knows what happend to the germans.

He would not like the same things happen to russia.

at least , such things would open pandoras box ..... for example open the gates for compensation claims .....

imagine russians would agree , that there are jewish victims , murdered by soviets or died during deportation, evacuation and so on .... the flood of claims would be colossal....

I thing , that millions of russian people having an different experiences with germans and Germany during the war time ...

my grandfather had to russian POWs in our manufacture , both staying until july 1945 in our house TO PROTECT the family from the "liberators"
.... both POWs went after that to westgermany and than : one to Canada and one stayed in BRD ....

they had NO WISH to return to Stalins workers paradies.....


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