Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

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castlewarden
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Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby castlewarden » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:43 pm)

Is there already a list in this forum which shows what claims were previously considered to be "Holocaust denial" and which now even mainstream court historians don't believe anymore?

I am looking for claims for which people were sentenced at the Nuremberg Trials, claims which are now considered to be false by mainstream Holocaustians.

Claims like:
- Soap made from Jews
- gas chambers in camps in the west of Germany
"Each and every component that makes up your life experience is drawn to you by the powerful Law of Attraction’s response to the thoughts you think and the story you tell about your life." Abraham Hicks

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby blacksmith » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:39 pm)

Let's start with the biggy: The changing of the number of deaths in the Auschwitz KL from 4 million to 1.5 million. Ernst Zuendel has been saying all along that the 6 million number was pulled out of the air, and they sent him to jail. Yet, the Polish government could make the change brazenly and nobody was punished for insulting the number of the victims. The actual "Death Books" show but 69,000 victims.

"LAMPSHADES FROM HUMAN SKIN" - gone
"SOAP FROM JEWISH FAT" - gone
"THE GAS CHAMBERS IN THE WESTERN PART" - gone
"SHRUNKEN HEADS" - gone
"ELECTROCUTION OF PRISONERS" - GONE
"USE OF STEAM" - GONE
THE CHANGING NUMBER OF JEWISH VICTIMS RANGING FROM 12 MILLION TO 8 MILLION - gone (NB the fact that Auschwitz actually reduced the number of deaths, the Jews and the MSM still talk of 6 million Jewish victims.)
We do not hear very much about the supposed criminal experiments of Dr. Mengele any more.
Babies being thrown into the fire - gone

When the Germans moved out of Auschwitz they gave the Jews an alternative: wait for the Russian liberators or leave with the Germans. Most of those who stayed were too ill to move (why the Germans did just do away with them, your guess is as good as mine) the majority chose to leave with their "evil" captors. The trip back into Germany was on foot and every one had to walk, guards included. Yes, people died on the road but these deaths were not caused by the guards. Many of the prisoners were in a weakened state and even though they knew that they might perish on the road, they preferred to leave rather then being "liberated" by the Russians. I recently read that most of the women who remained in the camp were raped by the Russian soldiers and those who survived the ordeal, were shipped off to Siberia.

Many moons ago I visited Dora KL and had the opportunity to see the books on display which dealt with the punishment meted out to the inmates. Every corporal punishment, every execution be it by hanging or by any other means, it was entered into the book. You can say a lot about the way the Germans treated the inmates in the KLs but they kept meticulous notes of every one of their acts. It should also be noted that the Camp Police, made up of Communists and Jews, committed more atrocities on the inmates than the SS guards. In fact to the best of my knowledge, the SS needed a special reason to enter the camp grounds. The camp police was responsible to distribute the food and naturally they got the lions' share of everything. Red Cross parcels were turned over to the prisoners.

There is no proof that there ever was an order to exterminate the Jews as a matter of policy.

If you know more about the false claims please add to my list.

Blacksmith

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Hektor » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:05 pm)

blacksmith wrote:Let's start with the biggy: The changing of the number of deaths in the Auschwitz KL from 4 million to 1.5 million. Ernst Zuendel has been saying all along that the 6 million number was pulled out of the air, and they sent him to jail. Yet, the Polish government could make the change brazenly and nobody was punished for insulting the number of the victims. The actual "Death Books" show but 69,000 victims.

"LAMPSHADES FROM HUMAN SKIN" - gone
"SOAP FROM JEWISH FAT" - gone
"THE GAS CHAMBERS IN THE WESTERN PART" - gone
"SHRUNKEN HEADS" - gone
"ELECTROCUTION OF PRISONERS" - GONE
"USE OF STEAM" - GONE
THE CHANGING NUMBER OF JEWISH VICTIMS RANGING FROM 12 MILLION TO 8 MILLION - gone (NB the fact that Auschwitz actually reduced the number of deaths, the Jews and the MSM still talk of 6 million Jewish victims.)
We do not hear very much about the supposed criminal experiments of Dr. Mengele any more.
Babies being thrown into the fire - gone
...

Not sure how "main stream" that really has gone. Most of it is still peddled as fact on wikipedia and other sites of that kind.

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:18 am)

You might try Robert Faurisson's essay The Victories of Revisionism:
http://codoh.com/library/document/99
also delivered as a speech, which led to legal action in France:

and later continued here:
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/victories-of-revisionism-continued.html

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Hektor » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:12 am)

They are still peddling the human soap tale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_ ... an_corpses
And used there as a source:
Human Fat Was Used to Produce Soap in Gdansk during the War | Print |
Contributed by PAP - rop/ pz/ mag
Friday, 13 October 2006
Soap produced by the German professor Rudolf Spanner Oct. 6, Gdańsk (PAP-Polish Press Agency) – An inquiry by the Gdańsk Branch of the Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation has concluded that soap was made from human fat and used for general cleaning purposes at the Anatomy Institute of the Gdańsk Medical Academy, under the direction of Professor Rudolf Spanner, during the Second World War.
Witold Kulesza, the director of the Main Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation, said during a Friday press conference that the finding represented confirmation of facts presented in Zofia Nałkowska's book The Medallions.

In Kulesza's opinion, Spanner's activities constitute "one of the darkest pages in the Second World War." He emphasized, however, that—were Spanner alive—it would not be possible to bring charges against him for Nazi crimes, but only, at most, for removing evidence of such crimes by destroying corpses.

The investigation did not show that any crime was committed on the premises of the Anatomy Institute of the Gdańsk Medical Academy. The corpses used in the experiments were obtained from sources including the mental hospital in Kocborów, the prison in Królewiec [then Konigsburg, now Kaliningrad, Russia], and—despite Spanner's categorical denials—the Stutthof death camp.

Spanner was detained and interrogated in Germany in 1947 and 1948. In his testimony, to which the Polish National Remembrance Institute had access during the inquest, he stated that he used the soap made from human fat exclusively for injection into joint ligaments. The investigation was dropped at the time. The only punishment that Spanner suffered was to be dismissed from the university in Cologne after intervention by the British. Spanner worked afterwards as an ordinary physician in Schleswig-Holstein, and died in Cologne in 1960.

Kulesza indicated that Spanner's experiments were hardly exceptional within the context of their time. As an example, he cited the case of a German scholar at the university in Poznań [Posen], who sold the skulls of Poles and Jews to customers including the Natural History Museum in Vienna, which exhibited them in its so-called "race cabinet."

The Gdańsk branch of the National Remembrance Institute has been working on the Spanner inquiry since 2002. The results show that the soap that Spanner produced was used to wash autopsy rooms and dissection tables. Witnesses testified that it had an unpleasant smell. This led to almond oil being added to it. The investigation found that Spanner's personnel produced somewhere between 10 and 100 kilograms of soap from corpses.

Investigators tracked down some of the soap produced by Spanner. Samples had been used as evidence of Nazi war crimes between November 1945 and October 1946, during the Nuremberg trials. A jar containing the soap is stored, along with the rest of the Nuremberg trial documentation, in the archive of the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

Tests on the extant soap sample were carried out by Professor Andrzej Stołyhwo of the Main School of Agrarian Economy (SGGW) in Warsaw, a specialist in the chemistry of fats.

Stołyhwo explained at the press conference that soap from human fat arises as a natural byproduct during the process of reducing corpses for such purposes as obtaining bones to be used for educational purposes by medical students.

However, Stołyhwo's expert analysis of the soap sample from the archive of the International Court of Justice in The Hague showed that kaolin had been added. This abrasive ingredient made the soap suitable for utility purposes. "For me, this is a violation of ethical principles," Stołyhwo added.

Prosecutor Piotr Niesyn of the Gdańsk Branch of the Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against the Polish Nation said that more than 20 new witnesses came forward during the investigation of Spanner's activities. They included former Polish soldiers, members of the militia, and prisoners of Stutthof concentration camp. The investigators also had access to the records of crime-scene reports from the Anatomy Institute of the Medical Academy in Gdańsk, carried out by a Polish-Soviet commission immediately after the liberation of Gdańsk in the spring of 1945.

During the course of the investigation, a journalist from the Gdańsk-Sopot-Gdynia area obtained a cube of brown-colored soap that originated in the Anatomy Institute of the Medical Academy in Gdańsk. The soap was given to the journalist by a now-deceased former employee of the institute. Professor Stołyhwo analyzed this soap, and found that its chemical properties were similar to those of the sample from The Hague (PAP).

http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?opt ... 5&Itemid=8

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:29 am)

So, basically, whether true or not, the soap legend is an emotional distractor which has nothing to do with the Hoocaust allegations. The ethical implications are debatable, but in no way evidence of the large-scale savagery it is intended to imply.

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Webmaster » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:59 pm)

Sorry to butt in like this. You may find this CODOH document by the signature Grapple useful, despite its humorous approach and seemingly unrelated title:

David Irving as 'holocaust' Historian
http://codoh.com/library/document/338

Webmaster
David Irving as 'holocaust' Historian
By Grapple
Published:
2002-01-01

David Irving is very much not a Holocaust Historian or even very much a military historian, he is in my opinion a Political and Biographical Historian who concentrates his efforts during the WW2 time frame. Even his military history work does not cover Eastern Europe where much of the Holocaust supposedly occurs. The only time he talks about the Holocaust is when it relates to his biographical subjects. I concur with Sailor when he states that Irvings comments about Hitler and the Holocaust have to do with Hitler having no knowledge of the Holocaust which raises questions about what actually happened.

While studying various leaders of that time period and their records, Irving appears to have found little or no evidence of a systematic Holocaust of the Jewish People. This has caused him to doubt the Holocaust story, which has caused some people to label him a Holocaust Denier instead of a Historian who has failed to find evidence of the Holocaust and admits to this fact.

The fact that Irving avoids going deeply into the Holocaust Story is quite understandable. First because anybody who does publish about the Holocaust and expresses any doubts due to the evidence or the lack thereof he found is ruthlessly attacked. Second because the Holocaust story constantly changes, so it is hard to even know what the Holocaust was except for 6 million Jews killed.

When I grew up the Holocaust was different from what it is now.
When I grew up Germans made lampshades, shrunken heads and soap out of Jews, now this is just stories for tabloid journalism and horror movies.
When I grew up there were gas chambers and extermination camps in Germany, now these are only located in Eastern Europe.
When I grew up there were 4 million killed at Auchwitz, now the number is 1 million and falling.
When I grew up there was a systematic plan made at the Wannsee conference that organized the mass murder, now every commander did things their own way and at no two camps or killing areas did the killers use the same method. This was because before there were explicit orders about how to carry out the killing, now it was all done with code words, winks and nods.
When I grew up there were gas chambers specially designed to kill people, now there are buildings crudely converted to killing.
When I grew up there were examples of Gas Chambers that you could see, now there are reconstructions that are sometimes not even located in the right spot.
When I grew up there were devices to introduce Zyklon B into Gas Chambers and exhaust the gas out of the Chambers, now there are crude holes in the ceiling of some rooms and no adequate exhaust for any of the rooms.
When I grew up there were crematories that burned the bodies in minutes with clouds of smoke and flame, now burning bodies in ditches is the preferred method. This is even though nobody can seem to find these ditches even though archeologists can find campfires from 5000 years ago; Holocaust promoters can't find huge ditches from 50 years ago.

All of these examples of the Holocaust today were researched and proven by so called "Holocaust Deniers". Now they are part of the main stream Holocaust story. Very few honest Historians would want to get involved with the Holocaust business if they can avoid it, since if you write something that is historically accurate you will be vilified. Then the Holocaust Promoters will take your research and make it part of the never-ending Holocaust story with its 6 million number, while never acknowledging that you were right.

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby blacksmith » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:39 pm)

Hi Webmaster,

Thanks for your "butting" in. I thought the article was very apropos. If I may digress, but still on the subject of holocaust denial; there are three things I do not understand:
1. How come that the UN Charter and every Western Country claims to have free speech, yet they forbid, yeah, they criminalize any questioning of the holocaust dogma.
2. In a democracy I believe that it is the majority that decides how a nation or a country will behave. We respect the rights of the minorities, even though they do not respect the rights of the majority. We pass hate laws, yet we allow people like Elie Wiesel to make a statement such as : "he must reserve a special place in his heart to HATE THE GERMANS". We punish people who make disparaging remarks about minorities but do not muzzle hatemongers like Ellie Wiesel.
3. My last point is that we have laws stuffed down out throats by minorities, who in most cases do not even represent 5% of our population, even though the majority of the people do not agree with those laws. I am sure I do not need to give examples of what I am talking.

Again, thanks for the article.

Blacksmith

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Hektor » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:24 pm)

blacksmith wrote:Hi Webmaster,

Thanks for your "butting" in. I thought the article was very apropos. If I may digress, but still on the subject of holocaust denial; there are three things I do not understand:
1. How come that the UN Charter and every Western Country claims to have free speech, yet they forbid, yeah, they criminalize any questioning of the holocaust dogma.
....

Here is how they justify this obvious contradiction:
Robert Faurisson versus France UN human rights committee

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby castlewarden » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:51 pm)

Thanks for the answers so far, but I think I have been misunderstood.

I was looking for sentences at the Nuremberg Trials with specific claims of criminal acts made. In the form "A was sentenced to death because it was proven he did X". And then some mainstream source a few decades later which states that same claimed criminal act X did in fact not occur according to today's knowledge.

I want to compose a list which shows at first glance how grossly inaccurate the Nuremberg Trials were.
Where can I find the original texts of those Nuremberg sentences?
"Each and every component that makes up your life experience is drawn to you by the powerful Law of Attraction’s response to the thoughts you think and the story you tell about your life." Abraham Hicks

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:30 am)

castlewarden wrote: Where can I find the original texts of those Nuremberg sentences?
Here:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/judcont.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judwarcr.asp#persecution
Interestingly, much of the judgement only cites evidence, but without endorsing it. It seems the judges had more sense than some of their followers.

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Re: Formerly "Holocaust denial" - now Mainstream

Postby Hektor » 7 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:05 am)

EtienneSC wrote:
castlewarden wrote: Where can I find the original texts of those Nuremberg sentences?
Here:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/judcont.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judwarcr.asp#persecution
Interestingly, much of the judgement only cites evidence, but without endorsing it. It seems the judges had more sense than some of their followers.

I think he looks for quotes on the specific claims first. Where they were made officially. Using site search on google may help.
https://www.google.co.za/#q=site:http:% ... human+skin
Just change the keywords to find what you look for. An allegation may not have entered the verdict tough, but it entered the public mind. Not all allegation may have been dealt with in those mock trials, but may have entered public discourse via other channels.
I'm thinking of the display table in Buchenwald now. The human skin + shrunken heads were at the trials, but there may be other items on the table that may not have made it into any mock trial.


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