Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

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Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Apokiliptik » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:00 am)

I'm not trying to be a wise guy. I'm not trying to be provocative. I know that many people in the Revisionist camp do not believe that mass murder was carried out at Sobibor concentration camp in Poland. This article relates to that and reflects powerfully on that belief. That is why I'm passing it along. I guess it falls under the "Holocaust" /Comments/ category.

HAARETZ
Monday, February 03, 2014 Adar I 3, 5774


Home/Jewish World/Jewish World Features

Israeli archaeologist digs into Sobibor death camp in search of Nazi killing machines

Yoram Haimi's biggest breakthrough yet: mapping of what the Germans called the Himmelfahrsstrasse, or the 'Road to Heaven,' a path upon which the inmates were marched naked into the gas chambers.

By The Associated Press | Aug. 21, 2012 | 10:55 PM | 3

When Israeli archaeologist Yoram Haimi decided to investigate his family's unknown Holocaust history, he turned to the skill he knew best: He began to dig. After learning that two of his uncles were murdered in the infamous Sobibor death camp, he embarked on a landmark excavation project that is shining new light on the workings of one of the most notorious Nazi killing machines, including pinpointing the location of the gas chambers where hundreds of thousands were killed. Sobibor, in eastern Poland, marks perhaps the most vivid example of the "Final Solution," the Nazi plot to wipe out European Jewry. Unlike other camps that had at least a facade of being prison or labor camps, Sobibor and the neighboring camps Belzec and Treblinka were designed specifically for exterminating Jews. Victims were transported there in cattle cars and gassed to death almost immediately. But researching Sobibor has been difficult. After an October 1943 uprising at the camp, the Nazis shut it down and leveled it to the ground, replanting over it to cover their tracks. Today, tall trees cover most of the former camp grounds. Because there were so few survivors - only 64 were known - there has never been an authentic layout of the camp, where the Nazis are believed to have murdered some 250,000 Jews over an 18-month period. From those few survivors' memories and partial German documentation, researchers had only limited understanding of how the camp operated. "I feel like I am an investigator in a criminal forensic laboratory," Haimi, 51, said near his home in southern Israel this week, a day before departing for another dig in Poland. "After all, it is a murder scene." Over five years of excavations, Haimi has been able to remap the camp and has unearthed thousands of items. He hasn't found anything about his family, but amid the teeth, bone shards and ashes through which he has sifted, he has recovered jewelry, keys and coins that have helped identify some of Sobibor's formerly nameless victims. The heavy concentration of ashes led him to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor. "Because of the lack of information about Sobibor, every little piece of information is significant," said Haimi. "No one knew where the gas chambers were. The Germans didn't want anyone to find out what was there. But thanks to what we have done, they didn't succeed." The most touching find thus far, he said, has been an engraved metal identification tag bearing the name of Lea Judith de la Penha, a 6-year-old Jewish girl from Holland who Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial confirmed was murdered at the camp. Haimi calls her the "symbol of Sobibor." "The Germans didn't discriminate. They killed little girls too," he said ."This thing (the tag) has been waiting for 70 years for someone to find it." Haimi's digs, backed by Yad Vashem, could serve as a template for future scholarship into the Holocaust, in which the Nazis and their collaborators killed about 6 million Jews. "I think the use of archaeology offers the possibility of giving us information that we didn't have before," Deborah Lipstadt, a prominent American Holocaust historian from Emory University, said. "It gives us another perspective when we are at the stage when we have very few people who can speak in the first person singular." Lipstadt said that, if the archaeological evidence points to a higher death toll at Sobibor than previously thought, it would not be "of sync with other research that has been done." Haimi's basic method is similar to what he does at home, where he does digs for Israel's antiquities authority in the south of the country - cutting out squares of land and sifting the earth through a filter. Because of the difficult conditions at Sobibor and the sensitive nature of the effort, he is also relying on more non-invasive, high-tech aids such as ground-penetrating radar and global positioning satellite imaging. Based on debris collected and patterns in the soil, he has been able to figure out where the Nazis placed poles to hold up the camp's barbed wire fences. That led him to his major breakthrough - the mapping of what the Germans called the Himmelfahrsstrasse, or the "Road to Heaven," a path upon which the inmates were marched naked into the gas chambers. He determined its route by the poles that marked the path. From that, he determined where the gas chambers would have been located. He also discovered that another encampment was not located where originally thought and uncovered an internal train route within Sobibor. He dug up mounds of bullets at killing sites, utensils from where he believes the camp kitchen was located and a swastika insignia of a Nazi officer.
Along the way, he and his Polish partner Wojciech Mazurek, along with some 20 laborers, have stumbled on thousands of personal items belonging to the victims: eye glasses, perfume bottles, dentures, rings, watches, a child's Mickey Mouse pin, a diamond-studded gold chain, a pair of gold earrings inscribed ER - apparently the owner's initials - a silver medallion engraved with the name "Hanna." He also uncovered a unique version of the yellow star Jews were forced to wear by the Nazis, made out of metal instead of cloth, which researchers determined to have originated in Slovakia. Marek Bem, a former director of the museum at Sobibor, said the first excavations began at the site in 2001, with several stages before he invited Haimi to join in 2007. He said the mapping of the 200-meter (yard) long Himmelfahrsstrasse opens the door for looking for the actual gas chambers.
"We are nearer the truth," he said. "It tells us where to look for the gas chambers."
Haimi is not allowed to take any of the items out of Poland, but he consults regularly with Yad Vashem's International Institute for Holocaust Research, which helps him interpret his findings and gives them historical perspective.
Dan Michman, head of the institute, said Haimi's research helps shed light on the "technical aspects" of the Holocaust. It also grants insight, for example, on what people chose to take with them in their final moments.
"His details are exact and that is an important tool against Holocaust denial. It's not memories, it's based on facts. It's hard evidence," he said. But the accurate layout is Haimi's greatest contribution, allowing researchers to learn more about how it functioned, said Deborah Dwork, director of the Strassler Family Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. She said some critics have suggested that the sites of former death camps are "sacred" and "should remain untouched." But she said she believes the excavation is justified. "I feel that our need for knowledge outweighs those concerns." Once his work in Sobibor is done, Haimi hopes to move on to research at Treblinka and other destroyed death camps. Though archaeology is usually identified with the study of ancient history, Haimi thinks that with survivors rapidly dying it could soon become a key element in understanding the Holocaust. "This is the future research tool of the Holocaust," he said.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jew ... s-1.459803

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:29 am)

"His details are exact and that is an important tool against Holocaust denial. It's not memories, it's based on facts. It's hard evidence," he said. But the accurate layout is Haimi's greatest contribution, allowing researchers to learn more about how it functioned, said Deborah Dwork, director of the Strassler Family Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.


The very people who should not research the holocaust in the pursuit of archeological and historical proof are the jews themselves. The playing field is far from level and they hold far too much bias to be taken seriously.

This report has no facts, scientific evidence or proof whatsoever to support the claims that Sobibor was any different to say Treblinka, that is to say a short term work/transit camp. Just by saying there is hard evidence etc does not make it so. Just finding personal belongings does not in any way, not by a million miles, prove the owners were close to their dying moments. This is farcical. No one denies the jews were deported and they were disconnected from their personal belongings before moving on east into Russia.

The article in Haaretz is shameful in its year one journalistic approach, it deals in the usual emotional bullying of the readers (jews in israel primarily) who will believe anything they are fed without so much as a critical glance.

The big issue you need to get a grip of here Apokiliptik is that us revisionists are not all anti-semitic, not all right wing neo nazi types, not all knuckle draggers, and were almost all believers in the Holocaust as presented. The difference between us and the brainwashed believers is that we have had the bollocks to stand back, question things and change our views on the logic, science, and common sense that we are supposed to believe from the likes of USHMM etc, which is remarkably thin.

So let's talk Sobibor. Where are the remains of 250,000 humans killed by the Germans as you claim? Where are they? If some dodgy archeologist/historian can find masses of personal belongings such as earrings why can't he find the teeth, bones and ash or rotted carcases? Because they aren't there.

After 70 years of claiming all these amazing and horrific tales isn't it time they could come up with more than forks and spoons?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Hannover » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:30 am)

A blatant sign of desperation on their part. I can't imagine any rational person taking this staged event seriously. Notice that they show nothing that they claim.

Image

This Haimi character does not even really dig down into the alleged mass graves areas even though "survivors" and various 'officials' claim to know exactly where these alleged mass graves supposedly are. The reality of this staged show is that he knows they will not find what is claimed. Hence a sham archaelogical dog & pony show is presented. BTW, so called "Jewish law" does not prevent real digging.

They claim bone, teeth, & ashes, but what kind of bones? What kind of teeth? What kind of ashes? Human, animal? No photos, why? He claims to have found keys, jewelry, & various trinkets as if you wouldn't find such things in the average person's backyard. Apparently he has found a trash dump, but certainly no mass graves. Laughable really.

Biased special interest group, Yad Vashem, says a certain girl was murdered there, but where is their proof? Just saying so doesn't make it so.

"Sacred"? Typical Jewish supremacists at work. At a real crime scene full, verifiable excavations would occur with tons of photos, verification, DNA taken, various specialists would be called to assist, on & on. With no such Jewish corpses that cannot be allowed, as usual.
The whole charade reminds me of charlatan Sturdy Coll and her easily debunked "archaeology".

"His details are exact and that is an important tool against Holocaust denial. It's not memories, it's based on facts. It's hard evidence," he said. But the accurate layout is Haimi's greatest contribution, allowing researchers to learn more about how it functioned, said Deborah Dwork, director of the Strassler Family Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Clark University in Worcester, Mass.
What chutzpah! The work is as inaccurate as possible, he scratches around on the surface but does not dig. We know why.

Haimi is not allowed to take any of the items out of Poland, but he consults regularly with Yad Vashem's International Institute for Holocaust Research, which helps him interpret his findings and gives them historical perspective.
"Interpret"? IOW, come up with some excuse why they have not found verifiable Jewish corpses. Just make wild statements and assume the gullible public will scrutinize the nonsense. Those days are over as Revisionist eat this stuff for breakfast

This tall tale is all smoke & mirrors. There isn't a real excavation underway, they have not shown us any Jewish corpses, but through their arrogance they make absurd statements which are easily refuted.

The tide is turning.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Dolma » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:10 pm)

Apokiliptik, I asked you these questions on the other thread you started, but you refused to answer them. They are even more relevant on this thead. Please answer them this time:

# 1 - Is it true or false that, at - Sobibor - huge pits were filled with bodies, emptied, then refilled with human remains?

# 2 - Is it true or false that, at - Sobibor - there are extant graves which currently contain actual / verifiable human remains?

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This forum deserves a better class of intellectual. And I’m gonna give it to them.


This should be fun.
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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Moderator » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:46 pm)

Apokiliptik:
Your insulting signature was removed as was your description of your 'interests' which seemed to have been intended to cast this forum in a bad light. Keep it up and you are gone.

Dolma, you cannot follow someone from one thread to another asking the same questions.
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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:49 pm)

Apokiliptik wrote:This post was posted under the understanding that it is a "Comment" not "Debate". My byline is a joke. If you've seen the movie Dark Knight you should recognize it as a misquote of a line from the movie.


Ever heard the phrase 'when in a hole, it's best to stop digging'? You might just find, at the very least, some IQs the size of small countries on this forum.

Fight the good fight on behalf of the traditionalists by all means but perhaps best do it with some decorum and humility.
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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Hannover » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:53 pm)

Apokiliptik said:
I know that many people in the Revisionist camp do not believe that mass murder was carried out at Sobibor concentration camp in Poland. This article relates to that and reflects powerfully on that belief.
Apokiliptik:
What do you find to be "powerful" about this article?
Do you feel it backs up the storyline about Sobibor?
If so, how?

The tide is turning.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby EtienneSC » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:18 pm)

The Haaretz article reproduced above is dated 21 August 2012. However, Haimi's work seems to be a continuation of archaeological work that started in 2001:
"In 2001, researchers, archaeologists, and historians in Poland began excavating the Sobibor site in hopes of finding more clues about the camp and those killed within its fences. Over the next six years little useful information was found, however, in 2007, Israeli archaeologist Yoram Haimi joined the investigation after he learned that two of his uncles had been murdered at the camp.

By August 2012, Haimi and his team of workers had uncovered numerous artifacts believed to have been the last possessions of some prisoners. Amid the teeth, bone shards and ashes through which he has sifted, he has recovered jewelry, keys and coins that have helped identify some of Sobibor’s formerly nameless victims. [.....]

Haimi's most important discovery, however, has led to a better understanding of the entire Sobibor site. Based on debris collected and patterns in the soil, he has also been able to figure out where the Nazis placed poles to hold up the camp’s barbed wire fences. That, in turn, led him to his major breakthrough - the mapping of what the Germans called the Himmelfahrsstrasse [sic], or the “Road to Heaven,” a path upon which the prisoners were marched naked into the gas chambers. He determined its route by the poles that marked the path. From that, he determined where the gas chambers would have been located."
(My bold letters.) Source:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Sobibor.html

If his most important discovery at the site are poles, that suggests to me that he too hasn't found much in the way of mass graves or human remains. However, the article does state that some teeth and ash have been found. This is consistent with Mattogno's book on Sobibor (2010). Haimi has written the following article on excavations up to 2012:
http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Archaeological-Research-in-the-Sobibor-Camp-Yoram-Haimi.pdf
At no point does he refer to any discovery of significance to revisionism. Perhaps he has published something lese?

The following inconclusive exchange is also relevant:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5106

As with Caroline Sturdy-Colls' excavations at Treblinka, there is a notable distance between the inconclusive archaeological findings and the claims of the court historians.

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:19 pm)

A few Nazi documents about the transit (transient) camp of Sobibor: http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... 7d28409601
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby JoFo » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:33 am)

Apokiliptik, I hope you are not discouraged from posting here; this forum needs new blood even if the delivery may rankle a few.

Consider one fundamental flaw with the excavation in the article you presented: The Israeli archaeologists approached the entire process with the presumption that murders had taken place at Sobibor. Imagine if we held that same presumption before every stone-age archaeological dig. We might find ashes, artifacts, and even bones or weapons, but then proceed to try and fit their presence into some sinister interpretation without giving thought to other obvious possibilities. Any credible scientist would approach such an endeavor without prejudice and let the evidence speak for itself. That's what revisionists try to do with this holocaust business.

There have been lately some fascinating documentaries covering preserved corpses pulled from peat marshes around Europe. One can witness some of the forensic processes that are conducted in determining the causes and nature of their deaths long ago. Nothing is certain and all possibilities are considered. That's what should be going on with these holocaust excavations!

(By the way, I thought Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker was brilliant. Best ever!)

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:39 am)

JoFo wrote:Apokiliptik, I hope you are not discouraged from posting here; this forum needs new blood even if the delivery may rankle a few.


Does Codoh really need a new Holocaust believer who is probably here to make "the evil Holocaust deniers" look ridiculous?

Here under is a comment posted by Apokiliptik on stormfront a few days ago in a thread debunking the myth of a Nazi extermination of homosexuals.

Apokiliptik
02-01-2014, 03:18 AM

I'm glad you brought this up, though I suspect you and I wouldn't agree on much else about the Holocaust. I suspect the homosexual community is making a frantic attempt to capitalize on the sympathy shown toward Jewish people and reallocate that to themselves in some sort of persecution fantasy. They can use this role to claim moral superiority over other people, especially those of us willing to tell the truth about their warped behavior.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t893283-2/#post11863429


The Stormfront revisionists and Apokiliptik wouldn't agree on much else (than the Nazis had no extermination policy toward homosexuals) about the 'Holocaust'. Hmmm... What can that mean? :twisted:

[That's the same Apokiliptik. She/he posted a similar thread here and on stormfront (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1021087/).]

Not to mention her/his insulting signature, now deleted.

I advise the Codoh moderator(s) to keep an eye on that Apokiliptik and her/his fakely naive "questions"...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Moderator » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:24 pm)

I advise the Codoh moderator(s) to keep an eye on that Apokiliptik and her/his fakely naive "questions"...
Indeed, he went ballistic when the responses to him in this thread and another* were more than he could handle. Per our guidelines, which I explained to him and he agreed to when registering, no one can continue to post to a thread if they dodge the challenges / questions about their stated position/s.
[Note that I disallowed Dolma's questions in this thread as they had been brought over from the other thread where Apokiliptik's content was different.]
Apokiliptik sent me numerous bizarre & obscene PMs after I disallowed his bizarre, nonsensical, nonresponsive posts. He's been deactivated. My eye was on him as soon as he registered, he was pretty obvious from the beginning. I did, however, hope he would debate in good faith. C'est la vie. What a job.
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* Some questions about destruction of crematorium and Sobibor.
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:35 pm)

Moderator wrote:
I advise the Codoh moderator(s) to keep an eye on that Apokiliptik and her/his fakely naive "questions"...
Indeed, he went ballistic when the responses to him in this thread and another* were more than he could handle. Per our guidelines, which I explained to him and he agreed to when registering, no one can continue to post to a thread if they dodge the challenges / questions about their stated position/s.
[Note that I disallowed Dolma's questions in this thread as they had been brought over from the other thread where Apokiliptik's content was different.]
Apokiliptik sent me numerous bizarre & obscene PMs after I disallowed his bizarre, nonsensical, nonresponsive posts. He's been deactivated. My eye was on him as soon as he registered, he was pretty obvious from the beginning. I did, however, hope he would debate in good faith. C'est la vie. What a job.
M1

* Some questions about destruction of crematorium and Sobibor.


Good job. I see my advice was superfluous.

4 comments and then gone. Maybe the shortest trolling career ever seen... :wink:
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:51 pm)

In some ways Apokilipitik's attitude and responses are typical of the outdated and outmaneuvered holocaust promotion team and members. They know that being asked to behave and act reasonably and fairly is beyond them, as the only way to get their bizarre claims across is to shout abuse and generally be obnoxious.

The reality is that their position is untenable and falling apart.

Personally I would like guys like him to come here and develop the dialogue but sadly they seem too rabid and emotional in their religious fervour.
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Re: Sobibor ~ archaeological work finds new info.

Postby Werd » 5 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:57 pm)

Yet another example of how easy it is for the gas chamber mongers to debate us but they won't because we are beneath them and have been refuted by reputable historians. :lol:


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