Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

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Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby EtienneSC » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:02 am)

I have been requested to move this post from another thread to which it was not relevant. I am reposting as it concerns a Himmler letter that is of interest in its own right:
Eric Hunt wrote: [on another thread]
Joachim Neander, in a German paper presented at the 28th conference of the German Studies Association, cites the following quote by Himmler from a November 20, 1942 letter to the head of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller. Himmler had written to Müller due to an exposé by Rabbi Dr. Stephen Wise, which mentioned the soap rumor and had been printed in The New York Times:

“You have guaranteed me that at every site the corpses of these deceased Jews are either burned or buried, and that at no site anything else can happen with the corpses.

Which deceased Jews? This sounds like an incriminating Himmler quote, not about soap but about the "deceased Jews".
The source is:
Joachim Leander Seife aus Judenfett [Soap from Jewish Fat], paper at October 2004 German Studies Association conference. There is a published version from 2006 here:
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/dachau/legends/NeanderSoap049.htm
The Himmler quote does not appear in the English version of his work here:
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/dachau/legends/2006NeanderDanzigSoapCaseGSR.pdf
However, in the German version Leander gives the reference for the letter: "Himmler an Müller; Zentrale Stelle Ludwigsburg Slg. USA Heft:Ord.Nr. 3 Bild Nr. 583." Carlo Mattogno also writes about it, on the basis of citation by Alfred Streim "Die Verbrechen der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion", in: A. Rückerl (ed.), NS-Prozesse:
"the Himmler letter need have no connection with the excavation and cremation of corpses of Jews who had been shot"

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/8.html
What then, was it connected with, assuming it is genuine?

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Hannover » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:50 am)

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/8.html
What then, was it connected with, assuming it is genuine?
Indeed, the starting point must be whether it is genuine? If so we can then discuss it's implied importance.
Do we have the actual original letter to review?

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:22 am)

If that letter is genuine, the quote above would imply nothing murderous, genocidal or even suspect anyway. It only shows that Himmler didn't want to see the Allied WW1 hoax of human soaps used once again to demonize Germany. It implies Himmler knew some people were dying in the German concentration camps, something nobody ever denied. Nothing surprising as Himmler had information about the death tolls of the German concentration camps and even ordered measures to make the death rate in the German concentration camps decrease as much as possible.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Hannover » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:41 am)

hermod wrote:If that letter is genuine, the quote above would imply nothing murderous, genocidal or even suspect anyway. It only shows that Himmler didn't want to see the Allied WW1 hoax of human soaps used once again to demonize Germany. It implies Himmler knew some people were dying in the German concentration camps, something nobody ever denied. Nothing surprising as Himmler had information about the death tolls of the German concentration camps and even ordered measures to make the death rate in the German concentration camps decrease as much as possible.
True enough, but I'm concerned that the quote, if genuine at all, may have been quoted out of context. Himmler may have indeed said something about the typhus problem that was occurring in the labor camps, but the likes of Joachim Neander or a source of the quote conveniently failed to include. I would also like to see if Himmler even mentions Rabbi Wise's laughable claim about soap being made from Jews. Seeing the actual letter would be most helpful.

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:04 pm)

Richard Breitman quotes the letter—dating it the 30 November—in his article "Secrecy and the Final Solution" in New Perspectives on the Holocaust: A Guide for Teachers and Scholars, Rochelle L. Millen (ed.), p.70f, his reference is:

Himmler to Müller, 30 Nov. 1942, United States National Archives, Record Group 242 (hereafter NA RG 242) Microfilm Series T-175/Roll 58/Frame 2521486.


The microfilm's held at College Park, Maryland, and can be viewed by almost anyone in Microfilm Research Room 4050:
http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/finding-aid/military/rg-242.html

And anyone can order a copy to be sent to them, for a fee:
http://www.archives.gov/research/order/fees.html


Mattagno clearly does not doubt its authenticity, although it seems he's never seen it:

A letter from Heinrich Himmler to the head of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller, dated 20 November 1942, shows just how great the concerns of the Reichsführer-SS were in this regard. With his letter, Himmler enclosed “a very interesting report about a memorandum by Dr. Wise from September.” Rabbi Stephen Wise, a prominent Zionist leader in New York and a privileged recipient of reports originating from Europe, had given a speech about alleged National Socialist atrocities on 28 September [1942] at Madison Square Garden. In this connection, Himmler wrote Müller:

“In view of the large-scale emigration of the Jews, it does not surprise me at all that such rumors are being circulated in the rest of the world. We both know that Jews who are put to work suffer from an increased mortality rate.”

Given those circumstances, Himmler’s only request of his subordinate was a guarantee that the bodies of such dead Jews “should either be burnt or buried” and that “nothing else can happen to the bodies.”[264]

In this internal memo, intended for a small number of recipients whom he knew and trusted, Himmler thus acknowledged the alarming rumors which were circulating around the “large-scale emigration of the Jews” and his only uncertainty, his only concern, was that someone, somewhere, might have really desecrated the bodies of some Jews who had died. As such, he ordered that the bodies of all Jews deceased in SS custody be cremated and buried, prohibiting their use for any purpose whatsoever.

264. Peter Longerich (ed.), Die Ermordung der europäischen Juden. Eine umfassende Dokumentation des Holocaust 1941-1945. München-Zürich 1990, p. 149.

THE “EXTERMINATION CAMPS” OF “AKTION REINHARDT”, p. 136
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-tecoar.pdf


But Mattogno—in Treblinka—did described as a "primitive hoax," an attempt to prove the letter was the beginning of "Action 1005,":

Let us now turn to the question of what the official historiography tells us about the alleged ‘Operation 1005’ and upon what sources this is based. An article in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states:[652]

“Operation 1005, code name for a large-scale activity that aimed to obliterate the traces of the murder of millions of human beings by the Nazis in occupied Europe.”

The decision to begin this operation is supposed to have been made in Berlin at the beginning of 1942. A letter of February 20, 1942, from the chief of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller, to Martin Luther of the Foreign Office,[653] in which the subject of the unsatisfactory burial of corpses is raised and which is supposed to have been written after Müller “had received an anonymous letter complaining about the corpses flooding the WARTHEGAU area,” is cited as proof.[652] This letter bears the file designation “IV B 4 43/42 gRs (1005),”[654] and the alleged ‘Operation 1005’ is supposed to have gotten its name from this document!

But Alfred Streim, who cites the relevant letter based on first-hand knowledge, writes:

“On November 20, 1942, Himmler ordered SS-Gruppenführer Müller, Chief of Department IV in the RSHA, in writing (Zst. Dok. Slg. Ordner 3, Bl. 583):

‘…You must give me a guarantee that the bodies of these deceased Jews will either be burned or buried in every location, and that nowhere can anything else of any kind happen with these bodies…”

He does not say that this letter bore the heading “IV B 4 43/42 gRs (1005),” does not assign to it the designation ‘1005,’ and confines himself to the following comment:[655]

“The undertaking received – in accord with a nomenclature procedure of the RSHA – the designation ‘1005.’”

Thus, the letter in question dates from November 20, 1942, and not from February 20. This would mean that the designation ‘1005’ for the operation would have been assigned a full five months after its start! On the other hand, in the letter the Jews are referred to as “dead,” not ‘shot’ or ‘killed.’ More over, the disposal of the bodies could take place by cremation or burial, which means that the Himmler letter need have no connection with the excavation and cremation of corpses of Jews who had been shot, and that what we are dealing with here is a primitive hoax.

[endnotes:]

652. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, op. cit. (note 18), article “Aktion 1005,” vol. I, p. 11.
653. According to C. Gerlach, this letter was written by Himmler to Müller! (op. cit. (note 419), p. 773.)
654. Thomas Sandkühler, Endlösung in Galizien. Der Judenmord in Ostpolen und die Rettungsinitiativen von Berthold Beitz 1941-1944, Verlag H. J. V. Dietz Nachfolger, Bonn 1996, p. 277.
655 A. Streim, “Die Verbrechen der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion”, in: A. Rückerl (ed.), NS-Prozesse, op. cit. (note 251), p. 78.

- Carlo Mattogno, Juergen Garf, Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, pp. 224-225.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf

(Italicised text in original not replicated here)


Hilariously, Sergey Romanov tried to prove the primitive hoax wasn't a hoax (by relying on secondary sources!) in 2006.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html

But tellingly, HC ducked out of trying to defend the "primitive hoax" in the C&P Manifesto.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:22 pm)

hermod wrote:If that letter is genuine, the quote above would imply nothing murderous, genocidal or even suspect anyway. It only shows that Himmler didn't want to see the Allied WW1 hoax of human soaps used once again to demonize Germany. It implies Himmler knew some people were dying in the German concentration camps, something nobody ever denied. Nothing surprising as Himmler had information about the death tolls of the German concentration camps and even ordered measures to make the death rate in the German concentration camps decrease as much as possible.
I had the same thought, but then why specify "Jews"?

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:47 pm)

This is Breitman's text, although it seems that his dating of November 30 for the letter, is incorrect according to the sources Mattogno quotes it from, i.e. Streim and Longerich, who apparently both date it to November 20.

On November 30, 1942, Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS, wrote a short letter to Heinrich Müller, head of the Gestapo, that is on the surface one of the stranger documents of the Holocaust.[1] It is nonetheless revealing testimony to a coverup that was part of the killing process almost from the beginning.

Himmler's letter was prompted by a report, passed along to and by Rabbi Stephen Wise, head of American Jewish Congress, that the Nazis were making soap from flesh of Jews who were gassed, as well as fertilizer from bones. It turned out that this report was untrue. But Wise spoke about it at a press conference on November 24 which he had called to publicize the fact that the Nazis had a plan to exterminate the Jewish people as a whole.[2] Wise's statements were reported in some American newspapers, and Himmler may have learned about them through Reich Security Main Office's press monitoring. But it is also possible that Himmler learned of Wise's report earlier, because the Nazi security agencies had broken one of the American diplomatic codes in Switzerland, where this report originated.[3] In any case, in his letter to Müller, Himmler rightly or wrongly referred to Wise's viewpoint of September 1942, a time when Wise had not yet started to speak publicly about the Final Solution. The copy of whatever document Himmler received about Wise does not survive.

A partial text of Himmler's letter read as follows:
In view of the large emigration movement of Jews, I do not wonder that such rumors come to circulate in the world.

We both know that there is present an increased mortality among the Jews put to work. You have to guarantee to me that the corpses of these deceased Jews are either burned or buried at each location, and that absolutely nothing else can happen with the corpses at any location.

Conduct an investigation immediately everywhere whether any kind of misuse [of corpses] has taken place of the sort as listed in point 1, probably strewn about in the world as a lie.

Upon the SS-oath I am to be notified of each misuse of this kind.[4]

This letter did confirm that many Jews were dying, though it denied that they were being killed. The real part of the letter, the business part of the letter, had Himmler reminding a key subordinate that no one was supposed to be misusing the bodies—and he wanted Müller to double-check to make sure. But why did he include the first two sentences about an emigration movement of Jews and an increased mortality? Part of the explanation of such euphemisms was that Himmler and Hitler were addicted to secrecy.

Secrecy was essential for the Final Solution, but it went beyond that; it was Hitler's and Himmler's general style of operation. Call it their conspiratorial style. Keep in mind that the Nazis got started as a conspiratorial movement with a secret plan to overthrow the government, and they never entirely lost this conspiratorial orientation. Hitler, Himmler, and others found advantages in concealing their intentions.

[endnotes]

1. Himmler to Müller, 30 Nov. 1942, United States National Archives, Record Group 242 (hereafter NA RG 242), Microfilm Series T-175/Roll 58/Frame 2521486.
2. New York Herald Tribune, 25 Nov. 1942, 1.
3. Interrogation of Walter Schellenberg, 13 Feb. 1946, NA RG 319, 1RR Walter Schellenberg, Box 195, Folder 3. Confirmation of the leak in Memoran-dum of Information for the Joint U.S. Chiefs of Staff, 23 June 1945, OSS Operations in Switzerland 1942-1945, William J. Donovan Papers, Box 67B, U.S. Army Military History Institute, Carlisle, Pa.
4. See n. 1 above.

Richard Breitman, "Secrecy and the Final Solution," in Rochelle L. Millen (ed.), New Perspectives on the Holocaust: A Guide for Teachers and Scholars, NY Uni. Press, pp, 70-71, 81.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Eric Hunt » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:47 pm)

Can't you just contact Neander to get the full text? He posted here in the past and may have an email present .
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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:50 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:
hermod wrote:If that letter is genuine, the quote above would imply nothing murderous, genocidal or even suspect anyway. It only shows that Himmler didn't want to see the Allied WW1 hoax of human soaps used once again to demonize Germany. It implies Himmler knew some people were dying in the German concentration camps, something nobody ever denied. Nothing surprising as Himmler had information about the death tolls of the German concentration camps and even ordered measures to make the death rate in the German concentration camps decrease as much as possible.
I had the same thought, but then why specify "Jews"?


Because Top Zionist Rabbi Stephen Wise didn't care about Gentiles at all and he was focusing his Zionist anti-nazi atrocity propaganda on the Jews. Rabbi Wise made allegations about Jewish corpses turned into human soap in the German concentration camps. So Himmler asked for information about the Jewish corpses in "his" concentration camps. Logical.

That's interesting that letter was written because of an allegation made by an old Zionist like Rabbi Stephen Wise. Rabbi Wise wasn't new in Zionist atrocity propaganda (see below). In 1942, Rabbi Wise was the President of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) and "the World Jewish Congress's expressed goal was...to assure the survival of the Jewish people, which involved the creation of a Jewish state" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewi ... .281936.29). The WJC was deeply involved in the birth of the Holohoax. The London office of the World Jewish Congress began making extermination claims in 1942 (http://www.holohoax101.org/201/). In August 1942, the Riegner 'Report', which is said to be"the first official communication about the planned Holocaust" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhart_M._Riegner), was a telegram from the office manager of the WJC in Geneva (Gerhart Riegner) to the President of the same WJC (Stephen Wise) (hermod @ The Zionist Self-feeding myth: the Riegner telegram/report). As early as in June 1940, Nahum Goldmann, administrative committee chairman of the WJC (and then President of the WJC), stated that: "if the nazis should achieve final victory, 6,000,000 Jews in Europe are doomed to destruction" (http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... 88fdf7568b).

"There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism." - Stephen S. Wise, New York Times, June 11, 1900

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JUNE 11, 1900 - NEW YORK TIMES
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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby hermod » 5 years 6 months ago (Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:28 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:Mattogno—in Treblinka—did described as a "primitive hoax," an attempt to prove the letter was the beginning of "Action 1005,":

Let us now turn to the question of what the official historiography tells us about the alleged ‘Operation 1005’ and upon what sources this is based. An article in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust states:[652]

“Operation 1005, code name for a large-scale activity that aimed to obliterate the traces of the murder of millions of human beings by the Nazis in occupied Europe.”

The decision to begin this operation is supposed to have been made in Berlin at the beginning of 1942. A letter of February 20, 1942, from the chief of the Gestapo, Heinrich Müller, to Martin Luther of the Foreign Office,[653] in which the subject of the unsatisfactory burial of corpses is raised and which is supposed to have been written after Müller “had received an anonymous letter complaining about the corpses flooding the WARTHEGAU area,” is cited as proof.[652] This letter bears the file designation “IV B 4 43/42 gRs (1005),”[654] and the alleged ‘Operation 1005’ is supposed to have gotten its name from this document!

But Alfred Streim, who cites the relevant letter based on first-hand knowledge, writes:

“On November 20, 1942, Himmler ordered SS-Gruppenführer Müller, Chief of Department IV in the RSHA, in writing (Zst. Dok. Slg. Ordner 3, Bl. 583):

‘…You must give me a guarantee that the bodies of these deceased Jews will either be burned or buried in every location, and that nowhere can anything else of any kind happen with these bodies…”

He does not say that this letter bore the heading “IV B 4 43/42 gRs (1005),” does not assign to it the designation ‘1005,’ and confines himself to the following comment:[655]

The undertaking received – in accord with a nomenclature procedure of the RSHA – the designation ‘1005.’”

Thus, the letter in question dates from November 20, 1942, and not from February 20. This would mean that the designation ‘1005’ for the operation would have been assigned a full five months after its start! On the other hand, in the letter the Jews are referred to as “dead,” not ‘shot’ or ‘killed.’ More over, the disposal of the bodies could take place by cremation or burial, which means that the Himmler letter need have no connection with the excavation and cremation of corpses of Jews who had been shot, and that what we are dealing with here is a primitive hoax.



So the name "Aktion 1005" supposedly came from a letter written by Himmler asking for confirmation that the Jews dying in the German concentration camps were not turned into human soap as claimed by Rabbi Stephen Wise at that time, but buried or incinerated as they were supposed to be. Waw! This is huge. Another laughable Holohoax invention.

Had Himmler ordered an obliteration of the traces of his alleged crimes, he wouldn't certainly have named it after that letter. "Aktion 1005" wasn't supposed to be about bodies "burned or buried" but about bodies allegedly unearthed and then burned.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby DHebden » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:36 pm)

Quitting the thread, as requested.

[Please note that DHebden removed the text of his posts which were responded to. Why?
He was not asked to quit this thread, he was told to respond to a registrant's challenges, otherwise, per our basic guidelines, he must leave the thread. Declining to respond to the challenges was his choice. M1]
Last edited by DHebden on Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Hannover » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:25 pm)

So, a letter of alleged immense importance is not available for viewing.
Why haven't exterminationists scanned and posted the original?
Is it because it's no better than this farce of a map:

Image

Hebden says:
Romanov also mentions:

In fact, in his article Spector quotes April 1944 intelligence report of the army activities in Pinsk area (by no means it should be assumed that this is the only such document):

By special order of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Sonderkommando 1005 arrived, to execute special duties in the area of the army.

Unfortunately, he neglects to give the archival reference.
He also all too conveniently neglects to show the originals of any of these. Is it because it's a fraud just like this:
'The Franke-Gricksch 'Resettlement Action Report': Anatomy of a Fabrication
By Brian A. Renk
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p261_Renk.html

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent racist Jewish supremacists demand that there be no open debate.
Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Atigun » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:52 pm)

Wait a moment, please. On one hand we have an order from Himmler, a very high ranking Nazi indeed, giving a written order that the bodies of the deceased were to be buried or cremated only. There was to be absolutely no messing about with them whatsoever for any purpose. How does that fit with the sworn testimony by survivors of the dancing buckets of flesh at Auschwitz? I believe that it was at Auschwitz that eyewitnesses reported that flesh stripped from the bodies of dead Jews was put into buckets which then began to quiver and bounce about. Does anyone have an explanation for this apparent contradiction?

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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Breker » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:07 pm)

Atigun wrote:Does anyone have an explanation for this apparent contradiction?
Yes we do. The "Holocaust" is rather a ridiculous lie filled propaganda-for-profit stunt that is tumbling like the house of cards that it is. If it's not one thing it's another that blows it to smithereens.
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Re: Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

Postby Hektor » 5 years 2 months ago (Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:02 am)

EtienneSC wrote:I have been requested to move this post from another thread to which it was not relevant. I am reposting as it concerns a Himmler letter that is of interest in its own right: ....

In German deceased:
Sie haben mir dafür zu garantieren, dass an jeder Stelle die Leichname dieser verstorbenen Juden entweder verbrannt oder vergraben werden, und dass an keiner Stelle mit den Leichnamen etwas anderes geschehen kann.

"Verstorben" generally means "died of natural causes."

But it would still be useful to have a scan or facsimile of that letter.


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