Sturdy-Colls rides again

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Hannover
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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby Hannover » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:06 am)

to Rabbit:
Yes, well, sort of. Neuengamme inmates were indeed bombed by the Allies aboard departing ships. Nordhausen was more appropriately what I meant. Easily understood confusion. Thanks.

Rabbit, you said:
Do you have any evidence that this was staged by the Soviets or even that the footage was used propagandistically?
Yes, what you posted.
you said:
The narrator claims the bodies "were left lying where they were shot," although they seem to created a sort of path.
So obviously there is a propagandist claim here. Falsely stating that they were shot (no blood), Russian troops in the picture whether actual or inserted. In fact there is noting to prove that the location depicted was Sonnenberg. There is no other purpose that would be served by an obviously bogus claim about a 'photo' which lacks verification.

I'm curious, was Sonnenberg occupied by the Soviets?

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- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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TheBlackRabbitofInlé
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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:39 pm)

Hannover wrote:I'm curious, was Sonnenberg occupied by the Soviets?


Roberto Muehlenkamp provides a few details on Sonnebberg:

In the night of 30 to 31 January 1945, 20 SS-men shot more than 800 of the about 1,000 prisoners held at Sonnenburg at the time, before they fled westward. SS-Obersturmführer Heinz Richter, then head of the Gestapo in Frankfurt/Oder, and SS-Hauptsturmführer Wilhelm Nickel, who commanded the execution detachment, were acquitted in 1971 by a jury court in Kiel. The Kiel District Court’s judgment, dated 02.08.1971, is published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Vol. XXXVI, Case Nr. 758.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/atrocities-committed-by-german-fascists.html


The Judgment's not on an open-to-all online format, but you can scrimp a few details by exploiting the site's search function,
http://www.junsv.nl/cgi/t/text/text-idx?page=home;lang=en;c=justizw;cc=justizw

... it confirms the date:

In der Nacht vom 30. zum 31. Januar 1945 wurden, bevor die russische Armee heranrückte, auf Befehl Himmlers mehrere Hundert Gefangene des pommerschen Zuchthauses Sonnenburg von einem SS-Kommando im Wirtschaftshof des Zuchthauses erschossen. Man wollte ihre Befreiung durch die Russen verhindern.

http://www.junsv.nl/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=justizw;cc=justizw;type=boolean;lang=en;rgn=div3;q1=Sonnenburg%20von%20einem%20SS-Kommando%20im%20Wirtschaftshof%20des%20Zuchthauses%20erschossen;op2=and;op3=and;view=reslist;subview=detail;sort=occur;start=1;size=10;didno=w32


The Bundesarchiv photo is dated March 1945. I'm no pathologist, but those corpses don't appear to have suffered a minimum of 4 weeks' decomposition to me.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby cold beer » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:18 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:I didn't see the crosses you refer to, but around 26:35 there is a burial service... at a church! And, I agree, all the people appear to be Russian peasants.

There's a person in the back of the crowd holding up an improvised cross made out of what looks like a couple of tree branches, I believe it's in that same scene.
Today Jews try to portray Jews of that era in the USSR as targets of the regime, whereas others will report the opposite, that Jews were resented for their active role.
If you believe the latter it looks much more out of place to see ethnic Russians holding these services.
Last edited by cold beer on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby cold beer » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:24 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:The Bundesarchiv photo is dated March 1945. I'm no pathologist, but those corpses don't appear to have suffered a minimum of 4 weeks' decomposition to me.


I reacted the same, in some of those scenes that actually showed clean skulls, no flesh.
That's not the state of decomposition the Russians filmed when they returned to Katyn to orchestrate their lie.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby Hannover » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:35 pm)

to the Rabbit on the Sonnenberg farce:

- So, there should have been no Soviets in the picture.
- The 'shootings' were impossibly bloodless.
- The accused were acquitted.
- The photo, supposedly from a German archive says nothing of it's origin, probably Soviet, hence the impossible Soviet soldiers, or that it is even Sonnenberg.
- The bodies could not have possibly remained in such as state for a minimum of four weeks.
- And the laughable Roberto Muehlenkamp has been cited, hardly credible.
irrational Roberto Muehlenkamp demolished at this forum

As I said, propaganda. As I always say, this is too easy.

As Edward Bernays said:
Other forms of lying propaganda which counter-propaganda has to meet are deliberate exaggeration and concealment of the truth. Faked photographs play a part in lying propaganda.

Edward Bernays quote of significance

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- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby cold beer » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:38 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:The footage of Sonnenberg prison is fairly shocking.

The narrator claims the bodies "were left lying where they were shot," although they seem to created a sort of path.

The narrator also claims that 4,000 were shot shortly before the camp was due to be liberated. Although another source (Hitler and Nazism by Richard Geary) states it was 800 and that this was no camp, but a prison.

Surprisingly few mentions of this massacre in books written in English.


Yeah so the Germans fed and housed these prisoners right up until the point when they had to make their escape just hours before the Russians arrived.
Fully aware of the Katyn controversy they decided to murder them so the Russians could conveniently capitalize on the reporting of the incident.
It couldn't be that the Russians murdered those prisoners for the purpose of hanging this on the Germans to substantiate their propaganda.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby Hannover » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:46 pm)

it couldn't be that the Russians murdered those prisoners for the purpose of hanging this on the Germans to substantiate their propaganda.
Indeed, the Soviets were not too kind to their troops who had surrendered.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby cold beer » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:51 pm)

Hannover wrote:
it couldn't be that the Russians murdered those prisoners for the purpose of hanging this on the Germans to substantiate their propaganda.
Indeed, the Soviets were not too kind to their troops who had surrendered.

- Hannover

I highly doubt that the Bolsheviks at the top viewed these men as 'their troops" as opposed to their pawns.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:06 pm)

Hannover wrote:to the Rabbit on the Sonnenberg farce:

- So, there should have been no Soviets in the picture.
- The 'shootings' were impossibly bloodless.
- The accused were acquitted.
- The photo, supposedly from a German archive says nothing of it's origin, probably Soviet, hence the impossible Soviet soldiers, or that is even Sonnenberg.
- The bodies could not have possibly remained in such as state for a minimum of four weeks.
- And the laughable Roberto Muehlenkamp has been cited, hardly credible, see this forum.

As I said, propaganda. As I always say, this is too easy.


This alleged massacre is highly suspicious and it certainly deserves the attention of a knowledgeable revisionist prepared to put in the leg-work to properly research it. I'm sure their findings would make very interesting reading.
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby Hannover » 5 years 8 months ago (Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:34 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:
Hannover wrote:to the Rabbit on the Sonnenberg farce:

- So, there should have been no Soviets in the picture.
- The 'shootings' were impossibly bloodless.
- The accused were acquitted.
- The photo, supposedly from a German archive says nothing of it's origin, probably Soviet, hence the impossible Soviet soldiers, or that is even Sonnenberg.
- The bodies could not have possibly remained in such as state for a minimum of four weeks.
- And the laughable Roberto Muehlenkamp has been cited, hardly credible, see this forum.

As I said, propaganda. As I always say, this is too easy.


This alleged massacre is highly suspicious and it certainly deserves the attention of a knowledgeable revisionist prepared to put in the leg-work to properly research it. I'm sure their findings would make very interesting reading.
If what has been shown so far is the best the propagandists can do then the job has been done.

The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Sturdy-Colls rides again

Postby Hektor » 5 years 6 months ago (Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:13 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:

I am not sure where and when it aired, but this programme made in 2013 appears to be by the History channel and Sky News and must be one of the worst orthodox Holocaust films ever made. It is based almost entirely on Soviet propaganda, which is never examined or questioned. At one point it tells us that over 600 thousand were murdered at Majadanek. Sturdy-Colls, who claims to be a Holocaust scholar, cannot not know that the current official figure is 78 thousand. There is also stuff on Babi Yar which people might like to comment on

By associating herself with this propagandafest Sturdy-Colls loses all credibility as a serious historian, as also does David Cesarani, but I don't think he ever had any.

I happen to watch (or listen to) the soap opera Holocaust from 1978. Among lots of other really grotesque stuff the Babi Yar legend is mentioned as well. There they speak of "60.000 victims". I also noted the usage of the usual fake photos in the mini series. The pictures are so common, while the number of photos is limited. So one sees them over and over again.

Here is more on Babi Yar I found with the usual mixture of fake and real photos.
http://www.berdichev.org/babi_yar.htm


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