On July 10, 1942, the Polish government in exile in London received the following report:22
“According to information from a German who is employed there, the place of execution is at Belzec, near the station, and is surrounded by barbed wire. Inside as well as around the fence, Ukrainians are on guard duty. The execution is done in the following way: A train full of Jews, after arriving at Belzec station, moves on a siding toward the fence which surrounds the place of execution. There is a change of crew. Beyond the fence, the train is handled by German personnel up to the point of unloading where the rails end. Once discharged, the men go into a barrack on the right, the women into one on the left, to undress, supposedly for taking a bath. Then the groups go together into a third barrack with an electric plate where the execution occurs. The bodies are then taken by means of a railway to a pit, about 30 meters deep, situated outside the fence. The pit was dug by Jews who have all been killed. The Ukrainian guards who are
assigned to the camp are to be murdered once the action is over. The Ukrainians on guard duty have lots of stolen money and jewelry: They pay 400 zloty for a liter of vodka, or 2,000 to have sex with a woman, and give
22 Meldunek nadzwyczajny z miejsca tracenia w Belzcu z 10.VII.42r, SPP, Jcha 15, poz. 81. The report was later included as “Annex 3” in the long account (Sprawozdanie No. 6/42) drawn up in London on December 23, 1942, by the Interior Minister, St. Mikolajczyk, of the Polish government in exile. HILA, Stanford University, Box 3, pp. 63f.
23 “z p;yta elektryczna”
So how did the pits get this big? I think the clue lies in looking at Treblinka. Yitzak Arad claims in his work that Treblinka also had pits dug thirty meters deep.
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... 7taQkC6XXQ
Excerpt from: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, pages 349-359.
In a comment attached to this report, it was noted that there was no corroboration from any other source for the item about "mobile gas chambers". In this report, Treblinka is mentioned without being called an extermination camp, and it is possible that it was not yet clear to the Underground that two Treblinka camps now existed the labor and penal camp, and the extermination camp.
In the Information Bulletin of September 8, 1942, the "Treblinka extermination camp" is first mentioned as separate from the labor camp.
Report No. 33 (58)
The Treblinka extermination camp, the place where the Jews are being killed, is located near the labor camp. It is situated 5 kilometers from the Treblinka station, and 2 kilometers from Poniatowo station. There is a direct telephone line to Malkinia. There is an old camp (for Poles) and a new camp whose construction is still underway (exclusively for Jews). The extermination of the Jews is now carried out in a way that is completely independent of the old camp. A locomotive pushes the cars with the Jews to the platform. The Ukrainians remove the Jews from the cars and lead them to the "shower to bathe". This building is fenced off with barbed wire. They enter it in groups of 300-500 people. Each group is immediately closed hermetically inside, and gassed. The gas does not affect them immediately, because the Jews still have to continue on to the pits that are a few dozen meters away, and whose depth is 30 meters. There they fall unconscious, and a digger covers them with a thin layer of earth. Then another group arrives. Soon we will relay an authentic testimony of a Jew who succeeded in escaping from Treblinka.
In this edition of the Bulletin, there already appears an accurate description of the gas chambers as a permanent structure, and not as mobile units as was cited in the August 17 report; on the other hand, the description of the victims walking dozens of meters to the pits after the gassing is not true and is based on unreliable information.
The October 5 report stated:
The death camp continues its activity. Transports arrive from all areas of the General Government (lately from Radom, Siedlce and Miedzyrzec). At present, not twenty but only ten freight cars are taken to the platform, as it takes a long time to get rid of the corpses of those who died on the way (20-30 percent). The gas chambers are operated in the following system: outside the building, an engine works twenty-four hours a day. Its exhaust is connected to the wall of the barrack and through it the gas is introduced. The gas is a combination of poisonous liquid mixed with the gasoline from the engine and kills the people who are locked in. Within the camp, in addition to the Jewish workers, there is a Jewish orchestra and a group of Jewish women for entertaining the staff. By the end of August, 320,000 Jews were murdered in Treblinka.
So if getting a pit thirty meters deep was done with an excavator at Treblinka, that must have been the only conceivable way to get it done at Belzec as well. However, we must keep in mind that with regards to this 1942 report from Belzec from the polish government in exile, they claim this authentic report came from a German who worked there.
There is an interesting thread over at axishistory. They are talking about the excavator at Treblinka and eventually it gets into the one allegedly used at Belzec.
Despite the fact that it drifts away from solid evidence of an excavator at Belzec, it goes into some other interesting historical aspects. I will say that the entire thread is worth the read because there is a lot of debate about the many labour camps in the Belzec area, where they were located, when they were shut down, when the alleged extermination camp started up, whether or not it was in the same place as one of the former labour camps, the credibility of Reder overall especially in relation to his testimony about Jirmann who as it turns out was shot by Heinrich Gley in an accident, and many other things. What I found interesting is that Michael Mills who has certain shortcomings as noted by me here, seems to be a quasi revisionist in that towards the end, he doesn't write off the idea that Belzec could have been a killing center in the early forties.
In the thread, people focus on OTHER elements of events on Belzec to attempt to establish the crebility of Reder as a witness. Which is fine if they wish to do so. While it is true that if Reder is probably correct on some things, such as the accidental killing of Jirmann by Gley, it has no bearing on the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE of gas chambers and 600,000 gassed inmates or not. It is interesting, but seperate. The number of bodies claimed to have been gassed, buried, and then exhumed and destroyed once again is impossible; even if there was an excavator at Belzec. Besides, the absurd murder stories coming out of Belzec as noted by Mattogno pretty much prove how the whole Aktion Reinhardt story seems false. The atrocity stories would not have circulated if there was no need to and everything was truly documented and known about Belzec. That being said, let's continue about excavators at Belzec.
EXCAVATORS AT TREBLINKA
Post Number:#1 Postby giles120 on 06 May 2004, 14:56
The only photos of death camp excavators were taken by Treblinka camp kommandant Kurt Franz. According to the Franz photo album, the SS used cable excavators in Treblinka(Menck & Hambrock type Ma).
Can anyone confirm that excavators were used in Belzec and Sobibor for the digging of burial pits?
Post Number:#2 Postby xcalibur on 06 May 2004, 17:57
Rudolf Reder testified in 1945 that he operated an excavator in Belzec.
Post Number:#3 Postby giles120 on 07 May 2004, 10:31
Thanks Xcalibur. Looking a bit further I found that in September 1942, a request to purchase two bucket excavators from a company in Holland was made by Odilo Globocnik to Untersturmführer Hans Offermann. These two excavators may have been destined for Belzec.
Also, Kurt Fran'z photo album of Treblinka "Schöne Zeiten" translates as Pleasant Times. Not really the words I would associate with Treblinka. Was he being sarcastic!!!
Post Number:#5 Postby michael mills on 09 May 2004, 01:15
Rudolf Reder testified in 1945 that he operated an excavator in Belzec.
Actually, he claimed that as a mechanic he serviced an excavator operating outside the camp at Belzec.
He stated that the excavator he serviced was digging ditches, but he did not specify that the ditches were graves. It is most likely that the operation he was referring to was the construction of the huge anti-tank ditch in the period before the invasion of the Soviet Union; the village of belzec was situated right on the demarcation line between the German and Soviet zones of occupation.
The Belzec camp was situated immediately adjacent to the anti-tank ditch, and probably originally housed forced labourers working on the construction.
Once the invasion of the Soviet Union commenced, work on the anti-tank ditch was discontinued and the camp abandoned. Refurbishment of the camp began later in 1941, perhaps initially as a transit camp; it was converted into a killing centre in March 1942. There is a possibility that the anti-tank ditch, which of course was still there, was used for disposing of the bodies; that at least is what emerges from Eichmann's post-war testimony.
Post Number:#9 Postby Earldor on 10 May 2004, 17:58
Please give the quote in context. Does Reder mean outside the death camp (Lager II), outside the Belzec death camp proper or what?
You can find a map of the site here: http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/pic/bmap19.jpg
Post Number:#10 Postby xcalibur on 10 May 2004, 20:50
Reder, as quoted in Shermer and Grobman, Denying History:
"I operated a machine which dug the earth out of pits which served as graves for those gassed."
"On August 17, 1942 I as deported to the Belzec extermination camp."
Post Number:#11 Postby michael mills on 11 May 2004, 05:34
Here is what Reder says in a German translation of his testimony:Mir als Maschinisten trug er auf, den Benzinmotor eines Baggers, mit dem in der unmittelbaren Naehe des Lagers riesige Gruben ausgehoben wurden, zu bedienen. In diesem Charakter arbeitete ich 2 Monate lang. Weitere 2 Monate, das heisst bis Ende November, arbeitete ich als Maurer beim Ausbau der Lagerkueche.
He [= Lagerleuter SS-Stabsscharführer Irrmann] gave me as a mechanic the task of servicing the petrol engine of an excavator with which gigantic ditches were being dug in the immediate vicinity of the camp [my emphasis]. I worked for two months in that capacity. For a further two months, that is until the end of November, I worked as a bricklayer on the construction of the camp kitchen.
Source: Document 164 (c) “Vernehmungen über das Vernichtungslager Belzec: Rudolf Reder, Ueberlebender des Lagers, 29.12.1945”, in the book by Peter Longerich “Die Ermordung der Europäischen Juden” (pp. 362-7).
In other works, the gigantic ditches were next to the camp, not inside it. That description fits the anti-tank ditch, which is right next to the camp, between it and Belzec railway station.
Perhaps Xcalibur will be so kind as to give us the source of his quote, ie not just a book by Sherman, but where Sherman got it from.
Post Number:#13 Postby Earldor on 11 May 2004, 11:28
A bit more context, please. This quote doesn't clarify what Reder is referring to when he says "in the immediate vicinity of the camp".
Some info on the excavations in Belzec: http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/belzec/bel002.html
You should also endeavour to find the original version (Polish?), if you wish to bicker and extrapolate on the correct translation of the passage and whether Reder was in Belzec extermination camp or the labor camps in the area two years earlier.
The quote in Shermer is from M. Tregenza's "Analysis of Majdanek Gas Chambers and Transcript of Sworn Affidavit from Rudolf Reder" (Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen, Ludwigsburg, 1945, GFR. File No. 208 AR-Z 252/59)
Post Number:#16 Postby Earldor on 11 May 2004, 15:47
...as I said in my previous reply, the quote can refer to the Lager II or the extermination camp in general (as you seem to interpret it).
At is at this point it veers off into a discussion about the overall credibility of Reder as a witness and thus they get into the Jirmann/Gley debate and how could Reder be a liar about anything if what he said about Gley shooting Jirmann by accident was true because it was confirmed and translated by a Danish speaking man on the forum for us...? In other words, Belzec excavators are only mentioned briefly again as to what Michael Mills says Reder really meant or what Shermer and Grobman say Reder meant when the source turned out to be:
M. Tregenza's "Analysis of Majdanek Gas Chambers and Transcript of Sworn Affidavit from Rudolf Reder" (Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen, Ludwigsburg, 1945, GFR. File No. 208 AR-Z 252/59)
Now does anyone know the source or sources for xcalibur's claim in post #2 that "in September 1942, a request to purchase two bucket excavators from a company in Holland was made by Odilo Globocnik to Untersturmführer Hans Offermann. These two excavators may have been destined for Belzec." I have seen nothing so far and nothing shows up in Mattogno's book "Belzec" or even in "The Extermination Camps of Aktion Reinhardt."
http://www.holocaust-history.org/belzec ... ndex.shtml
There are a number of reports that two excavators were used at Belzec both to dig the burial pits initially, and subsequently to open them so as to allow burning of the corpses. The machines were subsequently shipped to Treblinka, and in the study on Treblinka they are described in detail (see "The Reconstruction of Treblinka" on this site). In Figure 4.6.10 an aerial photograph
taken early in the fall of 1944 reveal the signs of machine digging. The time of day was such that low sun angles resulted in shadows giving away subtle features not otherwise visible. The boxed regions contain mounds piled up by the excavator(s) while opening and closing the graves. In the drawing at the bottom, the outlined area has been drawn to show an equivalent oblique view. The drawing shows that a system of regular piles of soil separated by shallow ditches result when an excavator first opens, then refills a grave, and then moves to an adjacent patch of ground.
We click on a link to this image.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/belzec ... e4610.html
So we have a claim that the excavator was used at Belzec and then shipped off to Treblinka. Well we shall see about that.