Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:01 am)

hermod wrote:...

Apparently, Wetzler was working at "a small wooden mortuary" close to Krema II (http://codoh.com/library/document/640/).

Which means that he should have known the basic layout of Krema II
hermod wrote:...
Hektor wrote:On the escapes the following observation has been made:
The Telegrams to the Gestapo
In the archives (block 24), I could see that I was the only visitor and that there were several employees who appeared to be idle. I was provided with a volume containing the telegrams received by the Staatspolizeistelle of the Gestapo in Hohensalza. These were original documents. Among them were the telegrams reporting the escape of Rosenberg, Wetzler, Mordowicz and Rosin. I studied them for 45 minutes, comparing them with the other telegrams. In outer aspect (paper, seals, ink) they seemed authentic, although since I lack the qualifications of an expert, I am not really the one to express an opinion as to their authenticity. As for the content, it surprised me that they offered no marks of identification for the prisoners, not even their camp register numbers.....
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p-99_Aynat.html


Something seems to be fishy here.


So it seems that Vrba was indeed at Auschwitz (if the telegram mentioned by Aynat is authentic).

That's what Aynat calls into question. While stamp, form, etc. seem authentic, the missing details are a bit strange.
Anyway, that would have meant people by the name were there and escaped.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Werd » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:23 pm)

Hans has a reply.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.ca/
Tuesday, August 05, 2014
Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?
Right now some CODOH Revisionists are wondering if Rudolf Vrba aka Walter Rosenberg "was really at Auschwitz-Birkenau in the first place". The notion that he was not is patently absurd.

The detailed report authored by Auschwitz escapees Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler in 1944 goes far beyond what had been previously published about the camp - there is no rational way how Vrba and Wetzler could have provided these numerous details other from their own inside knowledge. Both proved their detailed knowledge on Auschwitz once again in their testimonies on witness stand under cross examination at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trial.

The telegram reporting their escape of 7 April 1944 to the German police forces can be found here. The Revisionist Enrique Aynat had raised some doubts about its authenticity as "it surprised me that they offered no marks of identification for the prisoners, not even their camp register numbers". But in the same file Aynat was studying, there is a telegram reporting an escape just the day before also not providing these features. Hence, it was obviously the practice at this specific time. The (local) police may have been informed about further details seperately.

Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler were according to their insider knowledge on the camp clearly prisoners of Auschwitz and the inaccuracies in their sketch of crematoria 2/3 reflects their limiting knowledge and memory on the operation of these specific facilities.

Even if he was in Auschwitz, he clearly made things up. Douglas Christie forced him to admit under oath in Canada that he never actually see chimneys emitting smoke and flames. Vrba admitted he heard them from other people. He also admitted to exaggerating things and using hyperbole.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 2 months ago (Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:31 pm)

Werd wrote:Hans has a reply.

....
Even if he was in Auschwitz, he clearly made things up. Douglas Christie forced him to admit under oath in Canada that he never actually see chimneys emitting smoke and flames. Vrba admitted he heard them from other people. He also admitted to exaggerating things and using hyperbole.

As so often, Hans got that wrong.

The "insider knowledge" could have come from other sources. Or does he exclude, that they Allies had spies at the camp.
If they really were there, why do they have so many details of their "insider knowledge" wrong. Especially the shape of the crematoria, which even Exterminationist must agree, described by them is wrong. I mean, wasn't that at the core of their report?

As they portrayed it:
Image
How it really was shaped:
Image
Note that both Wetzler and VRBA were in Auschwitz during and after construction, which means that they MUST have seen it.

I'm not the only one that noticed that: http://codoh.com/library/document/641/

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Bob » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:51 am)

I had this post prepared for some time for another board (david icke forum), but since I have already joined this thread, then i will post it here.

I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.

Wooden mortuary - there were wooden mortuaries in the Auschwitz Birkenau, hence mortuary does not mean that one in crematoria and they made quite clear they are speaking about wooden mortuaries. From these wooden sheds corpses were transported to morgues of crematoria twice a day.[1]

Hektor wrote:Which means that he should have known the basic layout of Krema II

If they really were there, why do they have so many details of their "insider knowledge" wrong. Especially the shape of the crematoria, which even Exterminationist must agree, described by them is wrong. I mean, wasn't that at the core of their report?

Note that both Wetzler and VRBA were in Auschwitz during and after construction, which means that they MUST have seen it.


They got it wrong since they were only spreading propaganda story and they did not bother to check the facts, quite common in the case of such stories. An example can be found in another report quoted by Mattogno, this time from mid 1943 and we can already see a reference to 36 ovens (albeit assigned to all crematoria) like from Vrba/Wetzler. Mattogno comments it: (Case for Sanity, p. 317)

"The reference to 36 ovens was the fruit of a gross invention by the members of the secret camp resistance which was repeated also in the so-called Vrba-Wetzler report. In fact, in this report nine triple-muffle ovens were ascribed to crematoria II and III as being placed around the chimney, instead of five triple-muffle ovens set up in a row. Because there actually were four crematoria at Birkenau, the Chybiński report mentions (4×9 =) 36 ovens with three muffles each (see chapter 15.3. and 16.1)."

What a coincidence? No, just a convergence of false propaganda number. There were several resistance groups, several versions of the story, not even final or polished and they no doubt knew the world will swallow practically everything without much criticism - it was a war, Germans were hated by all. As you can see, this worked perfectly, even now are people accepting even the most silly nonsenses without problem.

Vrba claims to have been moved to Birkenau on January 15, 1943.[2] Wetzler have been sent to Birkenau on April 13, 1942[3] but this is in disagreement with Wetzler himself who claims to have been moved to Birkenau on January 15, 1943.[4] And in this period, Krematorium II was practically "finished."

Hans wrote:Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler were according to their insider knowledge on the camp clearly prisoners of Auschwitz and the inaccuracies in their sketch of crematoria 2/3 reflects their limiting knowledge and memory on the operation of these specific facilities.


That´s false and Hans knows this very well. Vrba claims he or both of them prepared the sketch using information from Sonderkommando[5] and Filip Müller was one of his best sources.[6] Wetzler claims the sketch was prepared by some Soviet PoW named Wasyl.[7] And finally, Filip Müller claims to have been the one who handed the sketch to Wetzler.[8]

Another sketch[9] reproduced in Müller´s book can be seen here and the difference is of course striking, so why did he allegedly handed to Wetzler that silly plan above?
Image

Well, because Müller probably never saw that plan and wanted some fame or he didn´t care about it believing most of the people will not learn this. And as can be seen from the gif comparison below, he plagiarized his published plan from another book[10] together will errors like an entrance which never existed. He added stairs to morgue 2 in the middle instead to the side (Kraus/Kulka plan is based on older drawings in which the entrance did not exist yet so Muller needed to made it up, but in the wrong location, more here) or he removed little crosses indicating drainage system and he left them in the morgue 1 claiming these crosses are alleged Zyklon B introduction "gas shafts"!
Image

Three versions how the sketch had been made/delivered, take your pick. Hans is lying since this is no doubt known to him and his effort to make people believe that errors are result of bad memory or limited knowledge is rather pathetic than silly. Especially if one considers they were allegedly not able to remember at least number of ovens or their arrangement in a row instead of circle and all of this in the course of some 16 months in Birkenau!

Needless to say, that Hans is among those who used Müllers´s plan with errors as a support for the story about introduction holes, despite not even being in officially correct arrangement (zig zag pattern). Unfortunately for him, little crosses in the Müllers´s plan is only a plagiarized drainage system from Ota Kraus and Erich Kulka also marked by little crosses. And such shameless shysters like Filip "I was a Sonderkommando for three years" Müller are the source for so called holocaust.

Let me guess, their lies, plagiarism, poetic license and errors are result of "limited knowledge, limited memory and post traumatic syndrome" and similar popular vague excuses exterminationists usually claim when they defend their only "evidence".

Notes

[1]Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: Open Air Incinerations, The Barnes Review, Washington, D.C., 2010, pp. 76ff.
[2]Cross-examination of Rudolf Vrba by Doug Christie, The District Court of Toronto, Between: Her Majesty the Queen and Ernst Zündel. Before: The Honourable Judge H.R. Locke and a Jury, Vol. VI, January 7, 1985, p. 1247 online.
[3]Yisrael Gutman, Michael Berenbaum (eds.), Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, Indiana University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis, 1994, p. 553.
[4]Alfréd Wetzler, Čo Dante Nevidel, Pavel Zrínyi and Milanium M, 2009, p. 229. Written under pseudonym Jozef Lánik. He calls himself "Valér" and he calls Vrba "Karol". Among other things, Wetzler plagiarized Danuta Czech´s writings later published as "Kalendarium".
[5]Cross-examination...op. cit. (note 2), p. 1480.
[6]Rudolf Vrba with Alan Bestic,I Cannot Forgive, expanded edition, Regen College Publishing 1997, p. 175.
[7]Account of A. Wetzler, November 30, 1963. APMO, Oświadczenia (Dichiarazioni), t. 40, p. 36. (courtesy of Carlo Mattogno)
[8]Filip Müller, Sonderbehandlung. Drei Jahre in den Krematorien und Gaskammern von Auschwitz, Verlag Steinhausen, Munich 1979, p. 193. Filip Müller, Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers, 1979, published by Ivan R Dee, Inc , 1999, p. 121.
[9]Filip Müller, Sonderbehandlung......[i]op. cit. (note 8.), p. 287. There in an error, not Krematorium IV-V but II-III. One cross is covered by circled number 3. Especially in the English edition can be seen that somebody didn´t know how to resolve this enigma hence one concrete pillar on the left was transformed into alleged hole to have four holes in the plan!
[10]Ota Kraus, Erich Schön, Továrna na Smrt, Čin, Praha, 1946. Plan is between pages 144 and 145. Their drainage system in morgue 2 is correct, but appears to be moved in morgue 1. You can check original plans with drainage system and crosses here or here onwards.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:55 pm)

Bob wrote:I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.


I wasn't having doubt about Vrba's presence at Auschwitz because of his testimony full of errors. (I had concluded that he was a liar years ago.) I was wondering if somebody had already investigated Vrba's registration as a potential new line of research and I was basing my doubt on his family's wealth (wealthy people have the money to flee war areas) and his connection with Vera Atkins.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Werd » 5 years 1 month ago (Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:46 pm)

I didn't reproduce it when I quoted it, but the word "wondering" was hyperlinked to this current codoh topic.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 1 month ago (Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:55 am)

Bob wrote:I had this post prepared for some time for another board (david icke forum), but since I have already joined this thread, then i will post it here.

I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.

Wooden mortuary - there were wooden mortuaries in the Auschwitz Birkenau, hence mortuary does not mean that one in crematoria and they made quite clear they are speaking about wooden mortuaries. From these wooden sheds corpses were transported to morgues of crematoria twice a day.....

I already mentioned that the mortuary was apparently an annex to a building in Birkenau. I assumed that this would be at one of the barracks. But if they worked at that or knew people there, wouldn't they've transported corpses from there to the crematoria? And hence know the mortuary of the crematoria.

The falsity doesn't prove that they weren't in Auschwitz, but neither does it confirm this.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Bob » 5 years 1 month ago (Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:31 am)

hermod wrote:
Bob wrote:I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.


I wasn't having doubt about Vrba's presence at Auschwitz because of his testimony full of errors. (I had concluded that he was a liar years ago.) I was wondering if somebody had already investigated Vrba's registration as a potential new line of research and I was basing my doubt on his family's wealth (wealthy people have the money to flee war areas) and his connection with Vera Atkins.


I do not think the family´s wealth had some relevance to this topic and it will not help you to find the answer if he was or wasn´t at Auschwitz. As far as I know, there is a registration for Walter Rosenberg, serial number, personal data etc., hence Vrba aka "maybe fake Rosenberg" would have needed to stole this identity.

Hektor wrote:
Bob wrote:I had this post prepared for some time for another board (david icke forum), but since I have already joined this thread, then i will post it here.

I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.

Wooden mortuary - there were wooden mortuaries in the Auschwitz Birkenau, hence mortuary does not mean that one in crematoria and they made quite clear they are speaking about wooden mortuaries. From these wooden sheds corpses were transported to morgues of crematoria twice a day.....

I already mentioned that the mortuary was apparently an annex to a building in Birkenau. I assumed that this would be at one of the barracks. But if they worked at that or knew people there, wouldn't they've transported corpses from there to the crematoria? And hence know the mortuary of the crematoria.

The falsity doesn't prove that they weren't in Auschwitz, but neither does it confirm this.


As far as i know, they did not claim to have delivered corpses from wooden mortuaries to mortuaries of crematoria, hence their ignorance when it comes to architecture of crematoria is logical - they obviously did not investigate it, nor asked workers there etc., they simply spread propaganda nonsenses circulating in the camp thanks to resistance groups.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:08 pm)

Bob wrote:
hermod wrote:
Bob wrote:I do not agree with doubt about Vrba, and to base this doubt only on his testimony full of errors is wrong since according to this approach, you should doubt that even German guards were stationed in the camp including commander of the camp! We are dealing with propaganda story, hence so many errors, simple. Vrba´s/Rosenberg´s number is 44070 and you can check it on Auschwitz museum website.


I wasn't having doubt about Vrba's presence at Auschwitz because of his testimony full of errors. (I had concluded that he was a liar years ago.) I was wondering if somebody had already investigated Vrba's registration as a potential new line of research and I was basing my doubt on his family's wealth (wealthy people have the money to flee war areas) and his connection with Vera Atkins.


I do not think the family´s wealth had some relevance to this topic and it will not help you to find the answer if he was or wasn´t at Auschwitz. As far as I know, there is a registration for Walter Rosenberg, serial number, personal data etc., hence Vrba aka "maybe fake Rosenberg" would have needed to stole this identity.


I didn't say that the wealth of Vrba's family could have helped me to know if he was at Auschwitz. I said that his family's wealth had made me wonder if Vrba had really been held at Auschwitz. Got it now?
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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Bob » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:56 pm)

hermod wrote:I didn't say that the wealth of Vrba's family could have helped me to know if he was at Auschwitz. I said that his family's wealth had made me wonder if Vrba had really been held at Auschwitz. Got it now?


I already got previously that you doubt his presence at Auschwitz on the basis of wealth of his family which somehow violated your assumed logic: wealthy people have the money to flee hence wealthy people were not usual prisoners = Vrba is maybe lying about his imprisoning at Auschwitz.

That´s is very weak case based on very weak assumption which is not relevant and tells nothing about this "issue". My two cents, again.

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Moderator » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:59 pm)

Gents, please relax. You both got your shots in, leave it. Thanks.
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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby hermod » 5 years 1 month ago (Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:09 pm)

Bob wrote:
hermod wrote:I didn't say that the wealth of Vrba's family could have helped me to know if he was at Auschwitz. I said that his family's wealth had made me wonder if Vrba had really been held at Auschwitz. Got it now?


I already got previously that you doubt his presence at Auschwitz on the basis of wealth of his family which somehow violated your assumed logic: wealthy people have the money to flee hence wealthy people were not usual prisoners = Vrba is maybe lying about his imprisoning at Auschwitz.

That´s is very weak case based on very weak assumption which is not relevant and tells nothing about this "issue". My two cents, again.


That and him being the cousin of one of the British agents who extracted Hoess' "confession" (Vera Atkins). And also his family's frienship links with the 1st-class Zionist Rothschild dynasty. Seemed enough to at least have a look at Vrba's registration.


Moderator wrote:Gents, please relax.


100% relaxed on my side...
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Was Rudolf Vrba registered at Auschwitz?

Postby Bob » 5 years 1 month ago (Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:27 am)

Same here, no problem.


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