'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban it'

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borjastick
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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby borjastick » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:36 pm)

What do you define as denial then Nessie? Please be precise.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban i

Postby Hektor » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:53 pm)

Eric Hunt wrote:....

The Holohoax story is on its last legs. This is no "new lease on life", we are ending the gas-chamber-shower-room blood libel forever.

Revisionists are taking over the Internet, search any holocaust related term, especially specific ones, and you'll find CODOH and many other great resources.

Sure, over a million Jews died, primarily due to epidemic typhus. But the Zyklon B insecticide claimed to murder Jews was actually used to save their lives, by delousing their clothes while they took showers.

Gas chamber shower room blood libel doesn't belong in the information age.

I'd call it short 'gas libel'. And the 'gas libel' as well it's violent defense is what is despicable not "Holocaust denial".

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Moderator » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:02 pm)

borjastick wrote:What do you define as denial then Nessie? Please be precise.
Nessie, you were asked how YOU define 'denial', not how others define it. That evasive response by you was removed.
M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby PotPie » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:38 pm)

NLH wrote:They’re anti-intellectual, cynically insulating themselves from truth and proven fact.


As taken as such by unintellectual internalization of loud, prominent and repeated claims and nothing more.

I'd like such people to dissect a single holocaust revisionist essay or even PARAGRAPH on their own.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Nessie. » 6 years 6 months ago (Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:24 am)

Moderator wrote:
borjastick wrote:What do you define as denial then Nessie? Please be precise.
Nessie, you were asked how YOU define 'denial', not how others define it. That evasive response by you was removed.
M1


Sorry, I made that point and then went on to list in detail what denial/revisionism means to me. Here is what denial and revisionism means to me.

Denial involves denying that there was a plan for the genocide of the Jews and others in Nazi controlled territory. That it was know to the Nazi hierarchy including Hitler. That there were gas chambers used to kill people.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:12 am)

Nessie, you said:
Denial involves denying that there was a plan for the genocide of the Jews and others in Nazi controlled territory. That it was know to the Nazi hierarchy including Hitler. That there were gas chambers used to kill people.
In separate threads:
- Please show us the actual "plan": documents, orders, funding, etc.
- Please tell us how the alleged 'gas chambers' worked.
- Please show us the alleged human remains from these alleged 'gas chambers'.

You cannot, so it appears there is nothing to deny.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Atigun » 6 years 6 months ago (Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:25 pm)

Nessie. wrote:Denial involves denying that there was a plan for the genocide of the Jews and others in Nazi controlled territory. That it was know to the Nazi hierarchy including Hitler. That there were gas chambers used to kill people.


Hannover has asked you to provide documents to support your beliefs, Nessie, which is a bit of a trap for you since no such documents exist. Professor Butz shot that notion down in 1976 with, "Hoax of the Twentieth Century." Raul Hilberg, the dean of holyhoax history tried to get around that deficiency by claiming that the orders were accomplished by the psychic phenomena of telepathy. Professor Faurisson duly savaged Hilberg's ridiculous inanity to the point that Hilberg withdrew into seclusion for a considerable period of time. See at: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

Sorry, Nessie, but there is NO actual proof that the holocaust took place either by documents or physical remains. There is no document that unequivocally states that the genocide of the Jews was to be called "Operation Jew" with an accompanying order of "Begin Operation Jew on April 20, 1941." Simply put, holocaustianity is another religion that requires belief before reason.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby borjastick » 6 years 6 months ago (Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:16 am)

Denial involves denying that there was a plan for the genocide of the Jews and others in Nazi controlled territory. That it was know to the Nazi hierarchy including Hitler. That there were gas chambers used to kill people.


-Nessie.

If you care to read this comment and the one that was originally attached to it and now transferred to the world war two section, you will see that what Nessie wants is for everyone in the world to kow tow to the agenda of Shoah business. To blindly accept what was presented by the allies, mainly from Russia, at the Nuremberg trials all those years ago. To have no investigation, no free thought, no analysis or critical observation at all. To smile and just believe the crazy claims and stories of the holocaust.

All this on the back of bizarre witness statements, a lack of bodies or means to have killed the six million and under threat of persecution, attack and legal threat. Words fail me at this point to comprehend how utterly stupid this position is.

But then when one wants a dose of the bizarre from the holohoax survivors club, one need look no further than the result of the holohoax, Israel.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Hektor » 6 years 6 months ago (Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:29 am)

Back to subject. Here we got a Masters Thesis claiming that "Holocaust Denial" is always "antisemitic":
http://www.hellojed.de/files/MA.pdf

Geeint ist sie nur in der nach außen getragenen Überzeugung, die
Ermordung von sechs Millionen Juden in der Zeit des „Dritten Reiches“ sei nicht
geschehen sowie einem diese Überzeugung gleichermaßen erzeugenden wie aus ihr
erwachsenden Antisemitismus. Holocaustleugnung ist immer antisemitisch – sie setzt
eine weltweite Verschwörung voraus, an der zwangsläufig Juden beteiligt gewesen
wären. Außerdem delegitimiert sie Wiedergutmachungshandlungen und die Existenz
des Staates Israel.

He basically says that "Holocaust Denial" is always "antisemitic", because it presupposes a worldwide conspiracy, which involves Jews.
Note that the subject of this piece is Holocaust Revisionism, but he manages to deal with the subject virtually without even quoting or referring the work of a single Holocaust Revisionist! But that it's antisemitic, that he knows.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Nessie. » 6 years 6 months ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:54 am)

borjastick wrote:What do you define as denial then Nessie? Please be precise.


Here is what I responded to. My definition of denial and I gave it. It is just like other definitions of denial, for example

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... s_01.shtml

"Holocaust deniers are people who contend that the Holocaust - the attempt by Nazi Germany to annihilate European Jewry during World War Two - never happened. According to the deniers, the Nazis did not murder six million Jews, the notion of homicidal gas chambers is a myth, and any deaths of Jews that did occur under the Nazis were the result of wartime privations, not of systematic persecution and state-organised mass murder."

That is what I said, the BBC article goes further and states

"Deniers dismiss all assertions that the Holocaust took place as conscious fabrications, or as psychotic delusions. Some even claim that Hitler was the best friend the Jews had in Germany, and that he actively worked to protect them. According to deniers, Jews have perpetrated this hoax about the Holocaust on the world in order to gain political and financial advantage, and it was in fact Germany that was the true victim in World War Two."

To make it clear, I think denial laws are wrong.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:14 pm)

Nessie. wrote:
borjastick wrote:What do you define as denial then Nessie? Please be precise.


Here is what I responded to. My definition of denial and I gave it. It is just like other definitions of denial, for example

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... s_01.shtml

"Holocaust deniers are people who contend that the Holocaust - the attempt by Nazi Germany to annihilate European Jewry during World War Two - never happened. According to the deniers, the Nazis did not murder six million Jews, the notion of homicidal gas chambers is a myth, and any deaths of Jews that did occur under the Nazis were the result of wartime privations, not of systematic persecution and state-organised mass murder."

That is what I said, the BBC article goes further and states

"Deniers dismiss all assertions that the Holocaust took place as conscious fabrications, or as psychotic delusions. Some even claim that Hitler was the best friend the Jews had in Germany, and that he actively worked to protect them. According to deniers, Jews have perpetrated this hoax about the Holocaust on the world in order to gain political and financial advantage, and it was in fact Germany that was the true victim in World War Two."

To make it clear, I think denial laws are wrong.
- 'the attempt by Nazi Germany to annihilate European Jewry during World War Two - never happened': Wrong, there was no attempt.
- 'Did not murder 6M Jews': Correct
- ' the notion of homicidal gas chambers is a myth': Essentially Correct, the alleged gas chambers were scientifically impossible
- 'any deaths of Jews that did occur under the Nazis were the result of wartime privations, not of systematic persecution and state-organised mass murder": Essentially correct
- ' in order to gain political and financial advantage': Correct, there are other reasons as well.
- 'it was in fact Germany that was the true victim in World War Two': Correct, I would also add other Axis countries and anyone who was duped into fighting for Zionist & Allied lies.
- 'Deniers dismiss all assertions that the Holocaust took place as conscious fabrications, or as psychotic delusions': Essentially Correct, I would add manipulation via propaganda.
- 'claim that Hitler was the best friend the Jews had in Germany': a false strawman argument, no one says that.
- 'that he actively worked to protect them': Correct in the sense that the Germans provided anti-disease measures and medical facilities for Jews.
To make it clear, I think denial laws are wrong.
Good to know that.

Citing racist Jewish supremacist Deborah Lipstadt is unhelpful to your position, did I see the word psychotic somewhere?
A Holocaust Revisionist Critique of the Thinking of Deborah Lipstadt
By Paul Grubach

http://codoh.com/library/document/165/

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover



Sorry for the edits as I added more content. I didn't realize there was a post that followed. We had guests last night. :)
Last edited by Hannover on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:22 pm, edited 5 times in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby borjastick » 6 years 6 months ago (Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:16 pm)

Nessie said:
To make it clear, I think denial laws are wrong.


If this is the case then I assume you feel that discussion and open debate are acceptable on any historical event including the holocaust.

However I would really like to know at what point in your life did you develop your knowledge of the holocaust and decide to blindly accept the whole story without rational thought and questions of it?

It strikes me that anyone who develops an interest in the subject and who has an open, logical and inquiring mind has to doubt at least some of the claims. So i would guess you are from a group who do not allow free thinking on the subject.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:12 am)

Nessie. wrote:...the BBC article goes further and states

"Deniers dismiss all assertions that the Holocaust took place as conscious fabrications, or as psychotic delusions. Some even claim that Hitler was the best friend the Jews had in Germany, and that he actively worked to protect them. According to deniers, Jews have perpetrated this hoax about the Holocaust on the world in order to gain political and financial advantage, and it was in fact Germany that was the true victim in World War Two."
What Nessie neglects to mention is that the BBC article in question, like much of their output on this issue, is written by Deborah Lipstadt(!), so we shouldn't be too surprised at the serried ranks of straw men. I'm not routinely a BBC-basher, but where the Holocaust is concerned the Industry is in total control of all the output. They even show pictures of Belsen to prove the Big H. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4436275.stm.

Respect to Nessie for coming into the lions' den and defending his/her position politely. Let's all respond the same way.

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby Nessie. » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:24 am)

borjastick wrote:Nessie said:
To make it clear, I think denial laws are wrong.


If this is the case then I assume you feel that discussion and open debate are acceptable on any historical event including the holocaust.


Yes

borjastick wrote:However I would really like to know at what point in your life did you develop your knowledge of the holocaust.....


My first recollection of learning about the Holocaust (as opposed to just hearing about it) was from the TV series World At War. I would have been about 15 or 16 at the time I first saw it.

borjastick wrote:..... and decide to blindly accept the whole story without rational thought and questions of it?

It strikes me that anyone who develops an interest in the subject and who has an open, logical and inquiring mind has to doubt at least some of the claims. So i would guess you are from a group who do not allow free thinking on the subject.


When did you stop beating your wife and take delivery of a whole load of straw? :wink: Why do you assume I have a closed mind and do not doubt anything I have read on the subject? Why are you guessing about what I think?

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Re: 'Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban

Postby hermod » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:00 am)

The general academic & media stance in countries where there are no laws against "Holocaust denial" is: Holocaust denial is despicable – but it's wrong to ban it...and we won't debate about the Holocaust with you anyway, evil paranoid conspiracy theorists, which amounts to ban Holocaust debates.

Orthodox historians and mainstream mass media deny any researcher status to Holocaust revisionists from the outset. Even more vicious than a ban. Holocaust revisionists are silenced with a kind of moral ban making 99% of people reject their studies without even reading them.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915


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