What happened to the Dutch Jews?

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Hebden
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What happened to the Dutch Jews?

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 22, 2004 9:34 pm)

We note a recent boring letter to Mr. Irving which asks about the fate of the Norwegian Jews deported to Auschwitz.

At the risk of inducing forum members even deeper into a comatose state, the question could well find application with most of the other European countries which came under German control or influence. Holland, for instance.

Taken from Professor Zimmerman's book Holocaust Denial (pp.53-56):

One of the interesting facets of Sanning's book is that he never addressed what happened to the Netherlands' Jews. He had attempted to explain away the disappearance of Jews from countries with much smaller Jewish populations (i.e. Scandinavian countries) than the Netherlands. Why ignore the more than 100,000 Jews deported from the Netherlands? The most probable reason is that he could not offer his usual justifications because Arthur Butz had conceded their deportation. Moreover, Butz also acknowledged that many of the more than 100,000 deportees had actually gone to Auschwitz.

Initially, Butz's concession seems curious. He had already stated that no Jews, or very few at most, had been deported from Hungary. Why not simply claim that either (1) no deportations had taken place from the Netherlands or (2) any deportees were "resettled" in conquered Soviet territory? Butz, however, had a good reason for acknowledging the deportations to Auschwitz. He believed that he could disprove the fact that many Jews who had arrived at Auschwitz were not registered because they were immediately murdered upon arrival, thereby not necessitating any registration procedure.

Butz reasoned, correctly for once, that if all Jews being carried on train transports could be accounted for through Auschwitz registration numbers, then that would constitute the final proof that no Jews were selected for gassing upon their arrival at Auschwitz. For example, it is known from Auschwitz registration records that about 404,000 Jews and non-Jews were registered in the camp during the four and one-half years of its existence. If it could be shown that all trains arriving at Auschwitz during these four and one-half years carried about 400,000 people, then this would mean nobody was gassed upon arrival.

There does not appear to be at present a comprehensive listing of all train transports to Auschwitz. However, in the case of the Netherlands we do have some important information. Butz used information published by the Netherlands Red Cross, in Dutch, which traced certain transports of Jews from the Netherlands directly to Auschwitz registration records. Butz was not the first writer on the subject to notice the significance of such information. Gerald Reitlinger had mentioned it in 1953. However, Butz is the first writer to attempt to comprehensively analyze this issue. Ironically, Butz may be said to have "pioneered" this research.

The Red Cross data used by Butz traced 6,233 male deportees and 4,842 female deportees. However, at the time of this report in 1953 the Red Cross only had registration data for the males for all transports occurring from July 15, 1942 to August 17, 1942. The eleven transports had a total of 5,389 males. Only 4,586 received registration numbers. Thus 805 males, or 15 percent of the eleven transports did not receive a registration number. At this point, one might expect Butz to simply ignore the issue by not calling attention to the transports. However, Butz, ever the inventor of explanations, came up with one of the rationalizations for which he has become known. He stated that when boys age 15 and lower are subtracted from the deficit, the difference between male deportees and male registrations becomes much smaller. Boys age 15 and lower account for 674 of the male deportees.

Butz's thesis would only work if children at Auschwitz did not receive registration numbers. How did Butz know that children did not receive registration numbers? He didn't. Like everything else in his book he simply assumed it because it was the only way he could make the numbers he was looking at fit his thesis that no Jews were selected for gassing upon their arrival at Auschwitz.

In fact, children at Auschwitz were registered along with the adults. The recently published Death Books from Auschwitz show a total of 2,586 children under 10 with registration numbers who died from 1941 to 1943. A cursory look at the death registers show at least five children, six and under, with the last name of Adler who had registration numbers. It is obvious that Butz never bothered to consult the Auschwitz State Museum about this issue. Butz should have taken seriously the statement by Germany's General Commissar in occupied Holland, made one month before the deportations began, that the Nazis were aiming at the total destruction of the Jews. He also should have noticed those portions of the Red Cross report which spoke of "gas chambers" (Gaskamer) for the deportees.

We are now in a position to extend Butz's research to all of the Jews who were deported from Holland. The Red Cross listed other transports from Holland, from August 24 to December 12, 1942, which carried about 38,500 deportees to Auschwitz. However, it had no information about registration numbers. Then, the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation traced the origin and destination of 102,863 deported Jews. There were a total of 102 transports. Sixty-seven of these transports arrived at Auschwitz. The total number of Jews in Auschwitz transports was 60,085.

The registration records for prisoners interned at Auschwitz have been compiled under the auspices of Auschwitz State Museum. These records are based on camp documents which were not destroyed by the camp authorities. The information appears in a day by day account of Auschwitz which was originally published in German. In 1990 the tome was translated into English and published as the Auschwitz Chronicle, 1939-1945 by camp historian Danuta Czech. From the Auschwitz Chronicle, we can trace the registration records of the Dutch Jews who were deported there. First, we can complete the original data examined by Butz for the 11,075 Dutch men and women deported in thirteen transports to Auschwitz from July 15 to August 14, 1942. As was already shown, the first eleven transports of men show that only 4,586 of the 5,389 men received registration numbers. Of the remaining 844 men transported on August 21 and 24, 642 received numbers. Thus, 5,228 of the 6,233 male deportees received numbers. The registration numbers for the 4,842 female deportees show that only 2,444 were registered, leaving 50% missing. This means that of Butz's total sample of 11,075 deportees, 7,672 received registration numbers while 31% of the total are missing.

Appendix I extends Butz's analysis to the remaining 54 Dutch transports to Auschwitz from August 28, 1942 to September 3, 1944. The date of deportation and number of people deported are taken from the Netherlands State Institute and Red Cross while the date of arrival and number registered are drawn from the Auschwitz Chronicle. As can be seen, of the 49,010 Jews deported to Auschwitz in these 54 transports only 9,754 received registration numbers. This means that of the total 67 transports to Auschwitz comprising 60,085 Jews, 17,426 received a registration number.

The data requires some further comment. The Red Cross notes that of the 27,503 deportees from August 28, 1942 to December 12, 1942, 6,078 men were seized for labor purposes before the transports reached Auschwitz. These are listed in the fifth column. The report also notes that the number of survivors was 207. When the 6,078 are added to the 3,611 registrations from this period - August 28 to December 12, 1942 - we find that only 9,689 are accounted for, or 65% are missing.

Three of the transports are missing. However, it seems almost certain that an unidentified transport arriving November 18, 1942 for which registration numbers were given was the November 16 transport of 761 persons. No information is available on the 1,645 deportees from November 15, 1943 and June 3, 1944. They were probably all liquidated upon arrival.

Perhaps just as revealing as the Auschwitz deportations are the ones that took place to Sobibor. The Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation traced 19 transports of 34,313 Jews to Sobibor from March to July 1943. All of these Jews simply disappeared. Sobibor - along with Belzec, Chelmno and Treblinka - was a pure extermination camp. The only prisoners who were held in those camps were there to help dispose of murdered victims.



There does not appear to be at present a comprehensive listing of all train transports to Auschwitz. - Unfortunately this is correct. We're working on rectifying this, at least as far as the main RSHA transports are concerned, but it will take some time.
Last edited by Hebden on Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:17 am)

Much ado about nothing, There is no evidence for gassings, period, and Zimmerman presents none. Jews went where Jews are. Think they were murdered? Then present evidence of such.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:17 am)

Hannover wrote:Jews went where Jews are.

- Hannover


We doubt this slogan has the same potential as 'No Holes, No Holocaust'. Can you see why?

The numbers of deportees from Holland amount to around 105,000, broken down thus:

Auschwitz 60,000
Sobibor 34,300
Theresienstadt 4,900*
Bergen-Belsen 3,750
Other concentration camps 2,100

*some of these were later deported to, registered in, and allegedly gassed in Auschwitz.


Of the 60,000 deported to Auschwitz it is claimed by the Red Cross that 6,000 men were selected from the transports, prior to arrival there, for work in labour camps, presumably those of Organisation Schmelt in Upper Silesia. Of the remaining 54,000, 17,500 are thought to have been been registered in the camp. This leaves a shortfall in the region of 36,500. Add to that the 34,000 allegedly sent to Sobibor and we find that 70,000 is the number of Jews from Holland who are unaccounted for.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:43 am)

In lieu of the lack of evidence for mass murder of Jews from Holland, the slogan works rather well, much like Faurisson's eloquent refutation of the dumb 'gas chambers' canard.....which is central to the so called 'holocau$t'. Jews were simply pouring out of Europe at the end of the war, going to Palestine, the US, S. America, UK, Australia, Canada, etc., hence 'Jews went where Jews are'.

Knowing Jews were deported somewhere says nothing about them being allegedly murdered, we know Jews were sent to other camps.
Of the remaining 54,000, 17,500 are thought* to have been been registered in the camp. This leaves a shortfall in the region of 36,500. Add to that the 34,000 allegedly sent to Sobibor and we find that 70,000 is the number of Jews from Holland who are unaccounted for.


*So I guess someone thinks that the Jews from Holland were gassed; but unfortunately for that True Believer, thinking so doesn't make it so, we need evidence.

Since the 'gas chambers' have been utterly and completely debunked by Revisionsts, we have merely more wishful thinking from those who benefit from such illogical, irrational, unscientific, and mandated thinking.

- Hannover
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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:19 am)

Here are some comments made by Paul Rassinier:
And, for Holland: the 40,000 Jews who fled to France, plus the 118,000 who were deported (and exterminated naturally), plus the 60,000 that the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation found still living in 1945 yield 218,000. But, according to official Jewish sources, there were only 150,000 Jews living in Holland in 1939.
[...]
Thus, of the Jews who are claimed to have been arrested in France, in Belgium, in Holland and in Luxemburg during the war, some 265,000 among them are said to have been exterminated in the concentration camps to which they were deported. But, when the war was over there were still in the four aforementioned countries, taken as a whole, 541,000 Jews or 2,000 less than there were living in them in 1939. This conclusion comes from the very figures that Mr. Raul Hilberg, his protege, Mme. Hannah Arendt, and the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation have given us. But, without knowing how, or why, the latter, when it comes to drawing official conclusions from these figures, concludes that there were only 291,000 survivors, and, for the number of exterminated, it finds a figure in the same range: 252,000.
[...]
On the one hand, if 40,000 Dutch Jews fled to France, where they were not deported and where they were found again in 1945, and if in 1945, 60,000 were found still surviving in Holland, then, by referring to the statistics for 1939, we subtract 40,000 plus 60,000 from 150,000 and get 50,000 national Jews actually deported who did not return -- at least they had not returned by 1945;

http://vho.org/aaargh/engl/RassArch/PRd ... nk142.html

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:30 am)

Hannover wrote:In lieu of the lack of evidence for mass murder of Jews from Holland, the slogan works rather well, much like Faurisson's eloquent refutation of the dumb 'gas chambers' canard.....which is central to the so called 'holocau$t'. Jews were simply pouring out of Europe at the end of the war, going to Palestine, the US, S. America, UK, Australia, Canada, etc., hence 'Jews went where Jews are'.


Without information on whether these figures are in the order of tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions, we predict your slogan will remain obsolete. Time for you to put some meat on the bones.

Knowing Jews were deported somewhere says nothing about them being allegedly murdered, we know Jews were sent to other camps.


To which specific camps? And how many to each? Do you know that?

We carefully read the Treblinka book by Messrs Mattogno and Graf in the expectation they would furnish significant evidence for mass deportations of Western and Polish Jews into the Soviet Union. Despite their discovery of some interesting documents, our general feeling was one of disappointment. One apparently shared by the authors when they write: "The fate of the Jews deported to the east is one of those questions, for which there is hardly a sure answer due to the lack of documents. It is closely bound to the even more complex problem of Jewish population losses during World War II, which is not the subject of the present study."

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:58 am)

Hebden wrote: We carefully read the Treblinka book by Messrs Mattogno and Graf in the expectation they would furnish significant evidence for mass deportations of Western and Polish Jews into the Soviet Union. Despite their discovery of some interesting documents, our general feeling was one of disappointment.

I fully agree with this. I had the same disappointing impression.

The Soviets closed the borders to the West shut after the war, which Churchill later called the "Iron Curtain". There was no census, no criminal investigation at the locations of the Nazi crimes at that time. And a lot of Communist propaganda.

The former Nazi concentration camps in the East were apparently now filled with German citizens and run by Communists and Jews who took now revenge.

Judging by the numbers as published by the World Almanac, the world Jewish population seems to be 1940: 15,320,000, 1949: 15,700,000, 1996: 14,120,000. But how does the World Almanac know this? How reliable are these numbers?

Do we know how many Jews returned to Holland by 1950 (Poland experienced a 5 million increase in their population during the first 5 post war years from returnees)?

And how many Jews live today in Holland?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:41 am)

Ah yes, Treblinka, a supposed 'death camp' where **900,000*** Jews were allegedly dumped into what would have been a enormous pit, but ofcourse, no such pit has ever been shown to have existed. In fact, there is no evidence that this alleged mass murder happened at all.

Can Mr. Hebden provide answers?

- Where is the evidence that the Jews from Holland were murdered?
- How were they supposedly murdered?
- Please provide evidence for the alleged murder weapon.
- Where are the physical remains?
- Where is the evidence that they were not transported elsewhere?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:50 pm)

Eventually, here is a complete list of the transports from Holland sent to Auschwitz:

Code: Select all


Arrival date    No. registered   No. transport   Labour/Schmelt

1942

July 17            1,551                 2,000
July 22              776                   931
July 25              809                 1,000
July 28              788                 1,010
Aug   1              807                 1,007
Aug   4              697                 1,013
Aug   8              464                   987
Aug  11              295                   559
Aug  15              177                   505
Aug  18              359                   506
Aug  22              628                 1,008
Aug  25              269                   519
Aug  30                0                   608           170
Sep   1                0                   560           200
Sep   5               53                   714           200
Sep   8               32                   930           110
Sep  12               60                   874           140
Sep  16               76                   902           120
Sep  20              212                 1,004           191
Sep  22              183                   713           112
Sep  26              179                   928           138
Sep  30              156                   610            64
Oct   3               62                 1,014           160
Oct   7               98                 2,012           550
Oct  11              442                 1,703           461
Oct  14              420                 1,711           344
Oct  18              116                 1,710           570
Oct  21              497                 1,327           677
Oct  25               53                   988           170
Oct  27              429                   841           251
Nov   1                0                   659           200
Nov   4               50                   954           260
Nov   7                0                   465           110
Nov  12               51                   758           180
Nov  18               30?                  761           100
Nov  21               82                   726            73
Nov  26               42                   709            70
Dec   2               77                   826           170
Dec   6               16                   812            69
Dec  10               42                   927            60
Dec  14              121                   757             

1943

Jan  13              189                   750
Jan  20               35                   748
Jan  24               72                 1,437
Jan  31               69                   659
Feb   4              100                   890
Feb  11              179                 1,184
Feb  18              261                 1,108
Feb  25               87                 1,101
Aug  26              280                 1,001
Sep   2              506                 1,004
Sep   9              292                   987
Sep  16              427                 1,005
Sep  23              591                   979
Oct  21              517                 1,007
Nov  17            1,148                 1,149
Nov  17              464                   995

1944

Jan  27              259                   948
Feb  10              215                 1,015
Mar   5              255                   732                   
Mar  25              360                   599
Apr   7              129                   240
May  21              350                   453
June  3              496                   496
Sep   5              470                 1,019
Last edited by Hebden on Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:12 pm)

Oh yawn. Does Mr. Hebden think they were murdered?

If so:
- Where is the evidence that they were murdered?
- How were they supposedly murdered?
- Where's the evidence for the alleged murder weapon.
- Where are the physical remains?
- Where is the evidence that they were not transported elsewhere?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:18 am)

Hannover wrote:Oh yawn. Does Mr. Hebden think they were murdered?


We refer Mr. Hannover back to the title of the thread: What happened to the Dutch Jews?

Mr. Hannover has made the claim "we know Jews were sent to other camps". If, as we assume, he was including Dutch Jews in this claim the burden is on him and not us ('where is the evidence that they were not transported elsewhere?') to share what he knows, if anything.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:25 am)

Was Anne Frank together with her sister not transferred from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen?
But maybe they do not count as Dutch.

Mr. Hebden's list seems to be from Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle".

Danuta states, that the non-registered Dutch Jews were gassed. Which is in line with the established exterminationist theory.

Is this what Mr. Hebden also believes?

Does Mr. Hebden inquire about the registered, the non-registered, or both?

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:18 am)

Sailor wrote:Was Anne Frank together with her sister not transferred from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen?
But maybe they do not count as Dutch.


The Frank family were part of the last Dutch transport to Auschwitz which arrived on September 5 1944. The table shows 470 from the reported 1,019 deportees were registered. Given Ms. Anne Frank was 15 years old at the time (her sister, Margot, was 3 years older) the registration of the entire family could not reasonably be deemed evidence against the exterminationist theory.

Mr. Hebden's list seems to be from Danuta Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicle".


Yes, with one important exception. The numbers of those selected from the transports for labour camps come from the Red Cross and are listed in an appendix of Professor Zimmerman's book. The exactness of these figures suggests the Red Cross had access to specific information

It's interesting that for some of the transports concerned the Auschwitz Chronicle makes no mention of persons having been removed prior to arrival in Auschwitz and consequently counts them amongst the unregistered people who were gassed. For instance, regarding the transport which arrived on November 1, 1942 the Chronicle states: 'The transport contains 659 people, who are all killed in the gas chambers after the selection', whereas, according to the Red Cross, 200 men were taken off this transport to be used as labour. Where mention is made of selections at Cosel, the Chronicle's information appears less certain than the Red Cross's.

Danuta states, that the non-registered Dutch Jews were gassed. Which is in line with the established exterminationist theory.

Is this what Mr. Hebden also believes?


We believe it's in line with the exterminationist theory, yes.

Does Mr. Hebden inquire about the registered, the non-registered, or both?


If one could resolve what happened to the unregistered deportees, one would have the answer to whether Auschwitz was a death camp or not. The subsequent fate of registered inmates is a secondary consideration.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:54 am)

Yes Sailor, the Frank's. Indeed they are a classic example of Jews from Holland being sent elsewhere, in spite of what Mr. Hebden wishes to cling to.
I should remind Mr. Hebden that those making accusations of crime, especially mass murder, are bound by standards of jurisprudence to support their claims with evidence.

again:

Can Mr. Hebden provide answers?

- Where is the evidence that even 1 Jew from Holland was gassed?
- If Mr. Hebden thinks they (or even 1) were 'gassed' then he must provide evidence for the alleged murder weapon.
- Where are the physical remains?
- Where is the evidence that they were not transported elsewhere like the Frank's?
- Where is the evidence that they did not go to Palestine/Israel, or the US, or Britain, or S. America, or Australia, or Canada, or other countries in Europe?

I submit that Mr. Hebden is rather at a loss for answers here. Remember Mr. Hebden, no dodging.

No evidence = no mass murder.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby elvistheelf » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:03 am)

Hannover,

You have stated that the Dutch Jews were sent to other camps; we know that this happened to Anne Frank for one but she was registered at Auschwitz. Do you have evidence that the "missing" unregistered Dutch Jews deported to Auschwitz were also sent to other camps? In this instance, you have made a statement and it is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide evidence to support it. Please do so.

Elvis


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