What happened to the Dutch Jews?

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Hebden
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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:15 am)

Hannover wrote:Yes Sailor, the Frank's. Indeed they are a classic example of Jews from Holland being sent elsewhere, in spite of what Mr. Hebden wishes to cling to.


The Frank sisters were registered in Auschwitz so their subsequent deportation back to Germany is not relevant to the fate of the 35,000 Jews from Holland sent on transports to Auschwitz who are unaccounted for.

Until progress can be made in this area, revisionism is destined to remain in the doldrums which Mr. Faurisson so perceptively described.

Where is the evidence that they did not go to Palestine/Israel, or the US, or Britain, or S. America, or Australia, or Canada, or other countries in Europe?


Mr. Hannover is referring to the possible fate of these people after the war. We're interested here in knowing the whereabouts of unregistered Dutch Jews in the period 1942-44.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:23 am)

Hebden wrote:
Danuta states, that the non-registered Dutch Jews were gassed. Which is in line with the established exterminationist theory.

Is this what Mr. Hebden also believes?


We believe it's in line with the exterminationist theory, yes.

What I meant to ask was: Does Mr. Hebden believe, that the non-registered Dutch Jews were gassed in Auschwitz/Birkenau?

I have the impression, that only those Jews who were scheduled to stay within the Auschwitz/Birkenau camps would be registered there. To Auschwitz belonged also a complex of some 40 sub-camps or work camps. Those deportees who were destined for one of those sub-camps or other camps outside the Auschwitz complex would not be registered in Auschwitz. Or am I wrong?

To where registered and non-registered Dutch Jews were transferred from Auschwitz/Birkenau may be of some interest, but is that really so important? Appararently all transfer documentations either never existed, have not been found yet or were lost, destroyed.

It would be interesting to me to know, how many of these Dutch Jews who were deported to Auschwitz finally returned home to Holland within the first post-war years.

Those who did not return have to be assumed to have perished. If not in homicidal gas chambers, than in some other way. This has to be accepted IMO.

fge

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:25 pm)

Sailor wrote:What I meant to ask was: Does Mr. Hebden believe, that the non-registered Dutch Jews were gassed in Auschwitz/Birkenau?


A straight question deserves a straight answer. We don't know if mass gassings took place in Auschwitz. It's conceivable.

I have the impression, that only those Jews who were scheduled to stay within the Auschwitz/Birkenau camps would be registered there. To Auschwitz belonged also a complex of some 40 sub-camps or work camps. Those deportees who were destined for one of those sub-camps or other camps outside the Auschwitz complex would not be registered in Auschwitz. Or am I wrong?


This is something we've also wondered about. We think that most of the workers in the sub-camps were registered in Auschwitz. Workers assigned to the Monowitz complex (whom totalled over 30,000 in August 1944) were counted in the total of registered camps inmates.

We believe Dr. Piper wrote a book on the various work projects and camps at Auschwitz, but we think it's a dead end if you're expecting to find tens, or even hundreds of thousands Jews working in them.

Those deported Jews who were unsuitable for labour must have gone elsewhere. Either they were 'lodged separately' in the region of Upper Silesia, shifted into the General-Government or taken further afield into the occupied Soviet territories.

To where registered and non-registered Dutch Jews were transferred from Auschwitz/Birkenau may be of some interest, but is that really so important? Appararently all transfer documentations either never existed, have not been found yet or were lost, destroyed.


This is not just an academic exercise. Progress on this front is indispensable to the revisionist cause. Once Mr. Rudolf and Mr. Mattogno bring out their promised magnum opus on Auschwitz, the focus will have to shift elsewhere.

It would be interesting to me to know, how many of these Dutch Jews who were deported to Auschwitz finally returned home to Holland within the first post-war years.


About 4,000 are said to have returned from Bergen-Belsen and Theresienstadt. 1,000 from Auschwitz. The circumstances under which these figures were compiled are not known to us.

Apparently only about 20,000 of the 100,000+ deportees from Holland were classified as stateless citizens, a smaller percentage than in the case of France. This would suggest that Dutch Jews would have been more likely to return home than might have been the case for France.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:05 pm)

[Professor Zimmerman]Three of the transports are missing. However, it seems almost certain that an unidentified transport arriving November 18, 1942 for which registration numbers were given was the November 16 transport of 761 persons. No information is available on the 1,645 deportees from November 15, 1943 and June 3, 1944. They were probably all liquidated upon arrival.


The two latter transports, which came not from the Westerbork camp but from the Herzogenbusch-Vught concentration camp, are not missing. Both are listed in the Chronicle. The 1,645 inmates were registered in their entirety. This means the number of registered deportees is over 19,000. With the addition of the 6,000 or so sent to labour camps, this leaves around 35,000 unaccounted for.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:05 pm)

The Franks clearly demonstrate that registered Jews were sent out at some point after registration and Sailor makes the point that unregistered Jews, by the fact that they were not registered, would have been sent elsewhere immediately. That is certainly logical.

It is absurdly illogical to ask me the exact whereabout of Jews when there is no evidence that they were murdered and logical reasons to believe they were sent elsewhere.

Hebden and elvis continue to assert mass murder without evidence; whereas I maintain that lacking evidence for mass murder indicates no murder. Or is this more 'holocau$t science' where the Germans could simply make people disappear without a trace via murder weapons which defy rational thinking and real science.

I challenge Mr. Hebden or elvis to provide any evidence they may have for mass murder.

Is it no wonder that the 'holcau$t' Industry must resort to intimidation, coercion, and prison sentences to hide their fraud. There is no evidence for the story as alleged.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:37 pm)

Hannover wrote:The Franks clearly demonstrate that registered Jews were sent out at some point after registration and Sailor makes the point that unregistered Jews, by the fact that they were not registered, would have been sent elsewhere immediately. That is certainly logical.

It is absurdly illogical to ask me the exact whereabout of Jews when there is no evidence that they were murdered and logical reasons to believe they were sent elsewhere.


Let's see if we understand this. According to Mr. Hannover, it's logical to think that unregistered deportees were sent elsewhere, but absurdly illogical to ask where they went.

And this is the intellectual adventure of the 21st century?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:39 pm)

I have answered 'where they went', various countries throughout the world, and Hebden has no evidence to refute that. ex.: Israel curiously has millions of Jews now, as opposed to a relatively miniscule amount prior to the end of the war.

And as usual, Hebden dodges my request for evidence of murder, typical. Talk about an 'adventure', yikes.

There is simply no reason to believe that Jews from Holland were any different than the examples given here by Jurgen Graf.
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a) What happened to the Jews who were sent to Auschwitz but not registered there?

Thanks to the German wartime documents which have survived in great numbers, we are able to ascertain that about one million Jews from various European countries were sent to the Auschwitz concentration camp. Almost exactly 200.000 of these Jewish deportees (plus 200.000 non-Jews) were registered at Auschwitz, whereas the remaining 800.000 or so were not. More than half of these 800.000 Jews had come from Hungary between May and July 1944. (According to wartime documents, about 437.000 Jews were deported from Hungary within less than two months. Most revisionists, including myself, accept this figure, while one of the most prominent revisionist authors, Arthur Butz, doesn't. The Journal of Historical Review, Volume 19, Nr. 4, July/August 2000, contains articles by Butz and myself about this question.)

The holocaust historians contend that nearly all non-registered Jewish prisoners were gassed upon arrival at Auschwitz-Birkenau. But there is every reason to believe that Auschwitz served as a transit camp for those Jewish deportees who were not registered. Let us first consider the case of the non-Hungarian Jews who were sent to Auschwitz between 1941 and 1943.

On 16 October 1942, the Swiss Jewish newspaper Israelitisches Wochenblatt reported:

"For some time, there has been the tendency to dissolve the ghettos in Poland. That was the case with Lublin, and now Warsaw is to follow. It is not known how far this plan has already been carried out. The previous inhabitants of the ghettoes are going off further to the East into the Russian occupied zone. They were partially replaced by Jews from Germany. (...) An eyewitness, who was until recently in the ghetto of Riga and was able to escape, reports that there are still 32.000 Jews in the Riga ghetto. Since the occupation, thousands have died. The Jews are now forced to work outside the city. (...) Recently in Riga, it has been noticed that Jewish transports have arrived from Belgium and other countries of Western Europe, which, however, immediately go on further to unknown destinations."

Whoever is familiar with the official holocaust version knows that no Jews from Poland and Belgium are supposed to have been sent to the occupied Soviet territories. The Jews deported from the Polish ghettos are said to have been murdered in extermination camps, and the deported Belgian Jews were either sent to Auschwitz (were most of them are claimed to have been gassed) or to camps in the West. - Two revisionist researchers, the Spaniard Enrique Aynat (Estudios sobre el "Holocausto", Graficas Hurtado, Valencia 1994) and the Frenchman Jean-Marie Boisdefeu (La Controverse sur l'extermination des juifs par les allemands, Volume II, V.H.O., Berchem/Belgium 1996), have documented a number of cases where deported Western European Jews were appearing in areas far east of Auschwitz during the war. According to the holocaust story, they could never have got there, because they were supposed to have met their fate in the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau. But even the official holocaust literature mentions the deportation of some tens of thousands of German and Czech Jews to Minsk (White Russia) and Riga (Latvia). The first deportation wave to Riga took place in December 1941. As Hilberg recounts in his standard work (Die Vernichtung der europaeischen Juden, p. 377), many of these Jews worked for the German armed forces as well as for private enterprises, but cripples, war invalids and old people over 70 were sent to Riga, too. At that time, the mass murder of the Jews had already started in the first extermination camp (Chelmno), if we believe the orthodox historians, so why should the Germans have cared to send unemployable Jews, who allegedly were all to be killed, to the occupied territories in the East rather than to Chelmno? The orthodox historians are totally unable to answer simple questions like this one because they contradict the extermination dogma.

In April 1944, the French communist underground newspaper Notre Voix reported that the Red Army had liberated 8000 Paris Jews in Ukraine (A photocopy of the article can be found on page 86 of Boisdefeu's book La Controverse sur l'extermination des juifs par les allemands, volume 2, p. 86). How did these Paris Jews get there? Had they not been all gassed at Auschwitz?

We believe that the Allies either destroyed German documents about Jews transferred from Auschwitz to the East or stored them in a safe place because they contradicted the extermination legend. However, some documentary evidence has survived. Thus, a German document kept in the archives of the Paris-based Jewish documentation centre states that in August and September 1942, Jewish transports containing all types of Jews, including those unable to work, would be sent into the Generalgouvernement, to wit, occupied Poland (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-46). Auschwitz, where all transports of French Jews went during that period, was not in the Generalgouvernement, but west of it, in the part of Poland Germany had annexed in 1939. - A German officer, Ahnert, who had taken part in a conference on the "solution of the Jewish question" reported on 1 September, 1942, that stateless Jews from France would be sent to a camp to be built in Russia (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-59). - These two cases prove that Auschwitz merely served as a transit camp for a part of the Jews deported there. This squares perfectly with those German documents which refer to the "evacuation" and "resettlement" of the Jews in the East. Although the documentation is very fragmentary, the few cases mentioned profoundly shake the exterminationist thesis according to which Jews sent to Auschwitz but not registered there were murdered in gas chambers.

The problem of the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz between May and June 1944, of whom but 28.000 where registered, is also largely unsolved. As we have already shown, the extermination of these Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau cannot have taken place because the cremation of the bodies would not have been feasible. On May 9, Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler explained in a letter to the SS main office of economic administration that 200.000 Jews would be employed in military industry (Nuremberg document NO-5689). Since no large-scale deportations of Jews from countries other than Hungary were occurring at that time, these 200.000 must necessarily have come from there. Between June and October 1944, more than 23.000 predominantly female Jewish prisoners were sent from Auschwitz to the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig where they were employed in factories, but also in agriculture. A large number of them were from Hungary (Stutthof, Muzeum Archiwum, I-IIB-8; Juergen Graf and Carlo Mattogno, Das Konzentrationslager Stutthof und seine Funktion in der nationalsozialistischen Judenpolitik, Castle Hill Publisher, Hastings 1999). This proves that Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz but not registered there were transferred to other camps, or to factories in the German Reich, but the destination of most of them remains unknown.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Pogo » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:15 pm)

Hebden wrote:
Mr. Hannover has made the claim "we know Jews were sent to other camps". If, as we assume, he was including Dutch Jews in this claim the burden is on him and not us ('where is the evidence that they were not transported elsewhere?') to share what he knows, if anything.


I'm curious as to whether you think the revisionists must conclusively prove that mass extermination of Jews did not place, or is it enough simply to show that there does not exist proof that any such thing ever DID take place?

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Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:16 pm)

If the Red Cross has such detailed information as to the exact numbers contained in the transports of Dutch Jews and details as to how many were registered , it probably also has the names of the transported Jews. It would be an enlightening exercise to compare the names on the transports against the registered names. Then the list of names of the unregistered could be compared to the list of persons that received or applied for postwar compensation from the German government or against Jewish population data. If unregistered persons showed up on the compensation list it would indicate that these persons survived. This would shoot down the notion that the unregistered were automatically done away with. I understand that persons behind the Iron Curtain were not in the 4.7 million claims the German government processed so I would expect that many of the unregistered would not appear on the German compensation list. It follows that many of the Jewish survivors remained behind the Iron Curtain at war's end. It is unfortunate that the International Tracing Center of the Red Cross has been less than cooperative on the matter of the camps. It would be a huge undertaking but a comparison of names (6 million?) in the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem versus the German compensation would yield some valuable statistics. The German government probably wouldn’t release the names of applicants.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:34 pm)

J William wrote:If the Red Cross has such detailed information as to the exact numbers contained in the transports of Dutch Jews and details as to how many were registered , it probably also has the names of the transported Jews.


The Dutch Red Cross published their work on the deportations after the war but whether the complete transport lists are available from them is something else we don't know. The excerpt from Professor Zimmerman's book mentions a Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation. Some time ago, the Klarsfelds produced two books about the deportation of Jews from France and Belgium: Memorial to the Jews Deported from Belgium 1942-44 and Memorial to the Jews Deported from France, 1942-1944. The latter book apparently lists the name of every Jew deported from France.

It would be an enlightening exercise to compare the names on the transports against the registered names. Then the list of names of the unregistered could be compared to the list of persons that received or applied for postwar compensation from the German government or against Jewish population data. If unregistered persons showed up on the compensation list it would indicate that these persons survived. This would shoot down the notion that the unregistered were automatically done away with.


Enlightening, yes, but a systematic project of the type you envision would be quite beyond the meagre resources and manpower that revisionsim can muster.

One would have thought that Professor Faurisson would have been the ideal person to have studied the deportations from France but we don't think he has published anything of note on the subject. The only material we're aware of is that by Mr. Jean Plantin and Mr. Jean Marie Boisdefeu:

http://vho.org/F/j/Akribeia/index.html

http://vho.org/F/c/JMB/

I understand that persons behind the Iron Curtain were not in the 4.7 million claims the German government processed so I would expect that many of the unregistered would not appear on the German compensation list.


According to Mr. Hannover most of these people probably made it to Israel, America, Australia, Britain, South Africa, etc.

It follows that many of the Jewish survivors remained behind the Iron Curtain at war's end.


Perhaps but at least some of the surviving Reich Jews who were deported to Riga and Kaunas in 1941 and 1942 were sent back into Poland and Germany as the Germans withdrew from the Baltic regions in late 1944. Brief discussion of this appears in the books on Treblinka and Stutthof, courtesy of Messrs Mattogno and Graf. Haven't seen reference to any Dutch names though.

It is unfortunate that the International Tracing Center of the Red Cross has been less than cooperative on the matter of the camps. It would be a huge undertaking but a comparison of names (6 million?) in the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem versus the German compensation would yield some valuable statistics. The German government probably wouldn’t release the names of applicants.


Some other sources are listed here:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/e ... ctims.html
Last edited by Hebden on Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:13 pm)

Hebden says:
Perhaps but, at least, some of the **surviving** Reich Jews ...


He has yet to provide a single shred of evidence for mass murders as the story alleges, be it Reich Jews, Dutch Jews, any Jews. There can be no such thing as 'survivors' since there was no policy of extermination from which to have 'survived'.

Again, notice how Hebden has dodged my request for evidence of gassings that he faithfully believes in. Notice how he cannot provide evidence that Jews from Holland were not transported elsewhere...which is the logical conclusion.

The Emperor wears no clothes.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:07 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hebden says:
Perhaps but, at least, some of the **surviving** Reich Jews ...


He has yet to provide a single shred of evidence for mass murders as the story alleges, be it Reich Jews, Dutch Jews, any Jews. There can be no such thing as 'survivors' since there was no policy of extermination from which to have 'survived'.


Regarding the fate of the Reich Jews settled in the Ostland in the winter of 1941/42, we refer back to an earlier discussion ( http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=130 ) in which it was argued that the purpose behind this initial stage of deportations was not mass murder and that the massacres in Riga and Kaunas (Kovno, Kauen) took place against official guidelines.

It's our understanding of exterminationist history that all of the Reich transports which were sent East after they resumed in May 1942 were liquidated according to plan. We presented one of the key documents in support of this here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=650

Messrs Graf and Mattogno in their Treblinka book provide some useful tables, including this one, which lists all known direct transports of Reich Jews into the Soviet Union:

The existing railway documents make it possible for us to draw only a part of the entire picture of the transports of Jews directly into the eastern territories. The transports arriving from the territory of the Reich were organized by the German Reichsbahn (Reichsbahndirektion in Königsberg), whose duty was to inform all departments involved. The transports received the abbreviation ‘Da’ and were numbered consecutively. The empty trains, designated by ‘Lp,’ were assigned numbers above 1,000.

The following transports are known:

Code: Select all

Train #    Departure Date Departure      Destination   Deportees
?          Nov  4, 1941   Berlin         Riga              ?
?          Nov  8, 1941   Hamburg        Minsk           990
?          Nov 10, 1941   Düsseldorf     Minsk           993
?          Nov 11, 1941   Frankfurt/M.   Minsk          1042
?          Nov 14, 1941   Berlin         Minsk          1030
?          Nov 15, 1941   Munich         Riga              ?
?          Nov 16, 1941   Brünn          Minsk          1000
?          Nov 17, 1941   Berlin         Kaunas            ?
?          Nov 18, 1941   Hamburg        Minsk           398
?          Nov 22, 1941   Frankfurt/M.   Riga              ?
?          Nov 23, 1941   Vienna         Kaunas          995
?          Nov 27, 1941   Berlin         Riga              ?
?          Nov 27, 1941   Munich         Riga              ?
?          Nov 29, 1941   Nuremberg      Riga            820
?          Dec  1, 1941   Stuttgart      Riga            980
?          Dec  3, 1941   Vienna         Riga            995
?          Dec  6, 1941   Hamburg        Riga            765
?          Dec  6, 1941   Cologne        Riga           1000
?          Dec  9, 1941   Kassel         Riga            991
?          Dec 11, 1941   Düsseldorf     Riga           1020
?          Dec 15, 1941   Hanover        Riga           1000
?          Jan  9, 1942   Theresienstadt Riga           1000
?          Jan 11, 1942   Vienna         Riga           1000
?          Jan 13, 1942   Berlin         Riga              ?
?          Jan 15, 1942   Theresienstadt Riga           1000
?          Jan 19, 1942   Berlin         Riga              ?
?          Jan 21, 1942   Leipzig        Riga           1000
?          Jan 25, 1942   Riga           Riga           1350
?          Jan 25, 1942   Berlin         Riga              ?
?          Jan 25, 1942   Vienna         Riga           1196
?          Feb  6, 1942   Vienna         Riga            997
Da-201     May  6, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-202     May 12, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-203     May 20, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1016
?          May 26, 1942   Germany        Minsk           998
Da-204     May 27, 1942   Vienna         Minsk           998
Da-205     Jun  2, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-206     Jun  9, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1006
Da-207     Jun 16, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-208     Jun 23, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-40      Jun 24, 1942   Königsberg     Minsk           770
Da-209     Jun 30, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-210     Jul  7, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-211     Jul 14, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-220     Jul 14, 1942   Theresienstadt M.Trostinec    1000
Da-212     Jul 21, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-219     Jul 22, 1942   Cologne        Minsk             ?
Da-213     Jul 28, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-221     Jul 28, 1942   Theresienstadt Baranovici     1000
Da-214     Aug  4, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-222     Aug  4, 1942   Theresienstadt M.Trostinec    1000
Da-215     Aug 11, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-223     Aug 17, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1003
Da-216     Aug 18, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
?          Aug 20, 1942   Theresienstadt Riga           1000
Da-217     Aug 25, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-224     Aug 25, 1942   Theresienstadt M.Trostinec    1000
?          Aug 31, 1942   Vienna         Minsk           967
Da-218     Sep  1, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
?          Sep  1, 1942   Theresienstadt Raasiku        1000
Da-226     Sep  8, 1942   Theresienstadt M.Trostinec    1000
?          Sep 14, 1942   Vienna         Minsk           992
Da-228     Sep 22, 1942   Theresienstadt M.Trostinec    1000
Da-229     Sep 30, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
Da-230     Oct  7, 1942   Vienna         Minsk          1000
?          Nov 18, 1942   Hamburg        Minsk           908
?          Nov 28, 1942   Vienna         Minsk           999

Total: 56,221


The four transports that left Berlin for Riga on November 4, 1941, and on January 13, 19, and 25, 1942, amounted to approximately 5,000 persons. In the period from November 17, 1941, up to February 6, 1942, a total of 25,103 Jews in 25 transports were brought to Riga, but only 15,114 are on the list. Thus, the total number of deportees increases to (5,000 + 56,221 + (25,103 - 15,114) =) 71,210. The Korherr Report helps us to close the gaps in documentation and to draw a more complete picture of the transports of Jews to the east in the year 1942. We will address this question in the chapter after the next.
Last edited by Hebden on Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:23 pm)

Transports, so what? Once again, no evidence for mass murder. And this thread is supposedly & specifically about 'Dutch Jews'. Where is your evidence for your claimed gassings of Dutch Jews?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:38 pm)

Hannover wrote:Transports, so what? Once again, no evidence for mass murder. And this thread is supposedly & specifically about 'Dutch Jews'. Where is your evidence for your claimed gassings of Dutch Jews?

- Hannover


We're hoping to see if any poster can come up with a counter-explanation of the Riga messages quite as bizarre as yours.

We'll send a copy of the thread to Mr. Faurisson and see if he can put his thinking cap on.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:21 pm)

Hebden wrote:We're hoping to see if any poster can come up with a counter-explanation of the Riga messages quite as bizarre as yours.

We'll send a copy of the thread to Mr. Faurisson and see if he can put his thinking cap on.


Is Mr. Hebden referring to the tape recordings, which Irving is touting around since years now as proof for mass executions of Jews by the Germans?

Rudolf paraphrased in:

Wie Lämmer zur Schlachtbank (Like lambs to the slaughter)
http://www.vho.org/VffG/2000/2/Rudolf165-167.html (German)

As proof Irving lists a taped protocol which the British allegedly recorded on an audio tape. On this tape is allegedly recorded a talk among German POW's in a British prison. One of them is Generalmajor Walter Bruns, who was until his discharge in January 1945 employed with the Heereswaffenmeisterschule I in Berlin. Although he was in no way urged by his co-prisoners, Bruns proved to be rather talkative about an alleged crime which he allegedly personally witnessed.
Rudolf does not go into the source critical problems which such an alleged recording, prepared by a hostile power of a conversation between persons who allegedly don't know anything about being recorded, represents.

(For the recording see: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/index.html
on Irving's site.)

Rudolf tries to picture:

"Thousands of women with small children are neatly standing in a 1500 yard long line. 600 yards before the forest they have to surrender their personal belongings, 500 yards before the forest they have to undress completely and then walk gradually towards the forest, which may have taken hours. After arriving at the forest they come to the pit where they have to lie down neatly and then are shot into the back of the neck with machine pistols.

A shot in the neck is done with a pistol, not a rifle or a machine pistol. Machine pistols were rather rare with the German army and is for this purpose not well suited, and they waste a lot of ammunition.

Six machine pistols clatter without interruption, thousands of victims standing in line, and notice only what is going on after arriving at the mass grave? And there is no panic among the victims standing in line to await their turn? There are no screams as a result of the shooting which would cause a panic among the thousands of waiting victims?

On the contrary, they stand nicely in a disciplined line and walk slowly forward, ignoring the screaming, the shooting, the corpses, pieces of flesh, attempts by some to flee, and the horrible smell of blood and decay.

It is therefore impossible, that Bruns really witnessed what he reported, because such a behavior of the victims before a mass execution is completely absurd and unthinkable.

Rudolf thinks that he can explain why Bruns, who was in a British POW camp, made such a statement (if he really did). He probably knew, that his conversation with other POW's was overheard, and it was his task to get similar statements from his co-prisoners.

Another indication for this is his behavior before the IMT. He attempted to distance himself from this recorded statement and maintained, that he did not see this himself, but was told by third persons, who either must have lied themselves, or Bruns must have completely misunderstood.

Rudolf cannot understand how an intelligent and critical man like the British historian David Irving can take such nonsense serious."

And Faurisson from the thread "Faurisson on Revisionism in 2004":

"Britain no longer has any revisionists, and certainly none in David Irving who, in recent years, has more or less rallied to Daniel Jonah Goldhagen’s theory according to
which the Germans have a natural propensity for evil, which would explain
their responsibility in the so-called “Hitlerite crimes” (see Adelaide Institute
Online, December 1996, p. 17). During his lawsuit against Deborah Lipstadt he
did not wish to call on revisionists for help, and that cost him dearly: with
a rather weak grasp of the subject, he lost his footing; he made manifold
concessions; to give yet another pledge of good faith to his adversary, he
invoked, as usual, the “Bruns document”, a text devoid of the slightest testimonial
value; physically robust, D. Irving gave the display of a fragile man."

fge


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