What happened to the Dutch Jews?

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Hebden...

Postby Pogo » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:22 pm)

As I asked before, do you think it is incumbent on those who question that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazis to prove that no such thing took place, or is it sufficient to show that it has yet to be proven that such a thing DID take place?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:29 am)

Mr. Hebden continues to believe faithfully in the laughable Bruns 'conversation', now that's bizarre.

Here's why:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=15

also:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=345

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:33 am)

Pogo wrote: As I asked before, do you think it is incumbent on those who question that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazis to prove that no such thing took place, or is it sufficient to show that it has yet to be proven that such a thing DID take place?


IMO it would be the responsibility of the exterminationist, the Holocaust believer, to prove that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazis.

If someone makes a public statement for example, that the American soldiers killed systematically millions of Iraqi civilians, would that person (besides being laughed at from New York to San Francisco) not have to prove this?
Or do the American soldiers have to prove first that they are innocent?
Or is this is a rediculous idea?


fge

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Re: Hebden...

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:57 am)

Pogo wrote:As I asked before, do you think it is incumbent on those who question that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazis to prove that no such thing took place, or is it sufficient to show that it has yet to be proven that such a thing DID take place?


We saw your question the first time but didn't feel under any especial obligation to answer it. But as you ask so nicely again, let us pose our own question in reply: if you were facing a murder charge would you object to your lawyer presenting a cast iron alibi in your defence on the grounds that you are not required to prove your innocence?

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:13 am)

Hebden wrote: We're hoping to see if any poster can come up with a counter-explanation of the Riga messages quite as bizarre as yours.

We'll send a copy of the thread to Mr. Faurisson and see if he can put his thinking cap on.

I may have misunderstood Mr. Hebden's reference to "Riga messages". He may have referred to his own posting about the transportations from Germany to Riga and Minsk, which was taken from Mattogno/Graf "Treblinka".

And
It's our understanding of exterminationist history that all of the Reich transports which were sent East after they resumed in May 1942 were liquidated according to plan. We presented one of the key documents in support of this here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=650


I agree with Hannover:
Transports, so what? Once again, no evidence for mass murder. And this thread is supposedly & specifically about 'Dutch Jews'. Where is your evidence for your claimed gassings of Dutch Jews?

Were the mass graves in Minsk (Gruppe Arlt) discovered and excavated, similar to the grave sites in Katyn? With international witnesses present? If not, why not? Maybe these graves also disappeared like all the others, like those in Treblinka?

And yes, this thread becomes somewhat confusing.

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Re: Hebden...

Postby Pogo » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:28 am)

Hebden wrote:
We saw your question the first time but didn't feel under any especial obligation to answer it. But as you ask so nicely again, let us pose our own question in reply: if you were facing a murder charge would you object to your lawyer presenting a cast iron alibi in your defence on the grounds that you are not required to prove your innocence?


I would expect my counsel to vigorously note the absense of a body and argue for an immediate dismissal of the charge, on the grounds that murder must be proven, not assumed, allowing that if in the course of further investigation the alleged deceased does turn up, the matter be revisited.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:50 pm)

We will all get back to the topic of this thread ('Dutch Jews') or more off posts will be deleted. Read the guidelines.

Thanks, Moderator
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Hebden...

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:50 pm)

Our messages are disappearing again. A very bad move. Because if we choose to leave the forum again, it will plunge even further into the doldrums. Experience has shown that no revisionist discussion group can prosper without us.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:59 pm)

You're trying to change the topic of this thread, which you started.

We want your views, but we also have guidelines which are posted.

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Sailor...

Postby Pogo » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:01 pm)

Sailor wrote:
IMO it would be the responsibility of the exterminationist, the Holocaust believer, to prove that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazis.

If someone makes a public statement for example, that the American soldiers killed systematically millions of Iraqi civilians, would that person (besides being laughed at from New York to San Francisco) not have to prove this? Or do the American soldiers have to prove first that they are innocent? Or is this is a rediculous idea?

fge



The problem, I think, is that information flows almost exclusively through the media conglomerates, which are controlled by persons whose interest
in truth is limited to the extent that it coincides with the furtherance of their objectives. So if the truth is systematically ignored and instead it is shown repeatedly that atrocities have been committed by the party in question, then against that backdrop such a lie as you describe, ridiculous as it is, could easily take root.

If this point isn't somehow addressed, I don't see much progress being made in the cause of historical accuracy. Unless the masses can somehow be convinced that it is in their best interests to verify the information that is fed to them, which is a time consuming proposition, the establishment propaganda machine will continue to function relatively unhindered.

What we need is for "Toto" to pull the curtain aside so that the public can see that the great "wizard" is nothing more than a deceiver, and even then they might decide to maintain the status quo as they are largely unprepared to assume responsibility for themselves.

The task is daunting but not impossible.

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What happened to the Dutch Jews?

Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:10 am)

As Hebden said in this thread it is almost impossible to know what happened to the Jews who were not registered in the Birkenau concentration camp, especially if it was the case they were non-workers, be they Dutch or otherwise. I think that the whole Nazi project of the ethnic cleansing of the Jews was premised on a victory over the Soviet Communists, so that when it became apparent that was not possible, from an exterminationist perspective, it was logical to assume that all non-workers were liquidated by one means or another, particularly by means of the alleged homicidal gas chambers at the supposed death camps.

If say, the Auschwitz death books do show that apparent non-workers were registered, as presumably only the registered featured in the Death books, then there is certainly no reason to presume that there were homicidal gassings as a consequence of the selection of workers and non-workers. However, as is indicated by the Fritjof Meyer thesis, if it was the case that there were homicidal gassings as a means of eliminating only those who constituted a threat to the general health of the slave labour force, then it could possibly have been the case that there were only a relatively small number gassed, who would have perished anyway, and, if they were registered, their death would have been entered in the Death books as some natural cause.

Thus, no matter how you look at the situation, it cannot be conclusively ruled out that there were no homicidal gassings, no matter how limited, unless it can be technically demonstrated that such gassings and cremations (or other means of body disposal) were not feasible. There has, of course, been much work by revisionists in this regard which demonstrate that it would not necessarily be feasible to resort to homicidal gassings, although, perhaps, it might be presumed by many that it would be what one would expect from the Nazi ethnic-cleansers. However, I am not sure that it would necessarily be technically possible to completely invalidate any notion of a homicidal gas chamber (apart from those dealing with individuals), in which case it will be necessary to resort to other means to refute the exterminationists.

Possibly the best way to refute the exterminationists would be by demographic means, as has been attempted by Paul Rasinier and Sanning, in their own way. However, probably it has not been able to do definitive work in this regard yet, because modern computer technology has not been utilised, as far as I know, and, even then, I doubt if one individual would be able to get far in this respect, since there is so much material to be considered, all of which will either directly or indirectly relate to the "Holocaust". To a certain extent, moreover, professional historians are being rendered redundunt by modern statistical analysis utilising computer technology, and this should be ideal in relation to the "Holocaust", which is mostly a question of numbers -- possibly some people might remember the statistical historical work done on the Negro slaves in the United States, which had all the leftists up in arms as it indicated that in many respects the Negros were bettter off under slavery (although I am no "cracker").

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:46 am)

This thread is supposed to be specifically about the Dutch Jews, but I'll play along for now.

Yes, it can be conclusively ruled out that there were no homicidal gas chambers because there is no evidence for them, very simple. Remember, in legitimate courts of law it is incumbent upon the accusers to provide evidence for any crime they allege.
Plus, it was technically possible as fraudulently alleged to have gassed millions in the manner that is claimed....just recall what some the laughable 'eyewitnesses' have stated, it's simply absurd and utterly impossible. 'Eyewitness' after 'eyewitness' have been shown to be lying and simply ridiculous....each and every one of them.

Revisionists have utterly demolished the gas chambers canard and comrade seinfeld, while he is perhaps playing devil's advocate here, cannot provide any evidence for them.

I suggest the work of Germar Rudolf for much of the technical info.:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html

I also invite seinfeld to start a thread on gas chambers, or involve himself in an existing one and learn.

Again, as has been demonstrated, non-registerd Jews have clearly been shown to have appeared elsewhere, unharmed, and there is no evidence that any were gassed. ex.:
http://www.ety.com/tell/books/jglife/13.htm

a) What happened to the Jews who were sent to Auschwitz but not registered there?

Thanks to the German wartime documents which have survived in great numbers, we are able to ascertain that about one million Jews from various European countries were sent to the Auschwitz concentration camp. Almost exactly 200.000 of these Jewish deportees (plus 200.000 non-Jews) were registered at Auschwitz, whereas the remaining 800.000 or so were not. More than half of these 800.000 Jews had come from Hungary between May and July 1944. (According to wartime documents, about 437.000 Jews were deported from Hungary within less than two months. Most revisionists, including myself, accept this figure, while one of the most prominent revisionist authors, Arthur Butz, doesn't. The Journal of Historical Review, Volume 19, Nr. 4, July/August 2000, contains articles by Butz and myself about this question.)

The holocaust historians contend that nearly all non-registered Jewish prisoners were gassed upon arrival at Auschwitz-Birkenau. But there is every reason to believe that Auschwitz served as a transit camp for those Jewish deportees who were not registered. Let us first consider the case of the non-Hungarian Jews who were sent to Auschwitz between 1941 and 1943.

On 16 October 1942, the Swiss Jewish newspaper Israelitisches Wochenblatt reported:

"For some time, there has been the tendency to dissolve the ghettos in Poland. That was the case with Lublin, and now Warsaw is to follow. It is not known how far this plan has already been carried out. The previous inhabitants of the ghettoes are going off further to the East into the Russian occupied zone. They were partially replaced by Jews from Germany. (...) An eyewitness, who was until recently in the ghetto of Riga and was able to escape, reports that there are still 32.000 Jews in the Riga ghetto. Since the occupation, thousands have died. The Jews are now forced to work outside the city. (...) Recently in Riga, it has been noticed that Jewish transports have arrived from Belgium and other countries of Western Europe, which, however, immediately go on further to unknown destinations."

Whoever is familiar with the official holocaust version knows that no Jews from Poland and Belgium are supposed to have been sent to the occupied Soviet territories. The Jews deported from the Polish ghettos are said to have been murdered in extermination camps, and the deported Belgian Jews were either sent to Auschwitz (were most of them are claimed to have been gassed) or to camps in the West. - Two revisionist researchers, the Spaniard Enrique Aynat (Estudios sobre el "Holocausto", Graficas Hurtado, Valencia 1994) and the Frenchman Jean-Marie Boisdefeu (La Controverse sur l'extermination des juifs par les allemands, Volume II, V.H.O., Berchem/Belgium 1996), have documented a number of cases where deported Western European Jews were appearing in areas far east of Auschwitz during the war. According to the holocaust story, they could never have got there, because they were supposed to have met their fate in the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau. But even the official holocaust literature mentions the deportation of some tens of thousands of German and Czech Jews to Minsk (White Russia) and Riga (Latvia). The first deportation wave to Riga took place in December 1941. As Hilberg recounts in his standard work (Die Vernichtung der europaeischen Juden, p. 377), many of these Jews worked for the German armed forces as well as for private enterprises, but cripples, war invalids and old people over 70 were sent to Riga, too. At that time, the mass murder of the Jews had already started in the first extermination camp (Chelmno), if we believe the orthodox historians, so why should the Germans have cared to send unemployable Jews, who allegedly were all to be killed, to the occupied territories in the East rather than to Chelmno? The orthodox historians are totally unable to answer simple questions like this one because they contradict the extermination dogma.

In April 1944, the French communist underground newspaper Notre Voix reported that the Red Army had liberated 8000 Paris Jews in Ukraine (A photocopy of the article can be found on page 86 of Boisdefeu's book La Controverse sur l'extermination des juifs par les allemands, volume 2, p. 86). How did these Paris Jews get there? Had they not been all gassed at Auschwitz?

We believe that the Allies either destroyed German documents about Jews transferred from Auschwitz to the East or stored them in a safe place because they contradicted the extermination legend. However, some documentary evidence has survived. Thus, a German document kept in the archives of the Paris-based Jewish documentation centre states that in August and September 1942, Jewish transports containing all types of Jews, including those unable to work, would be sent into the Generalgouvernement, to wit, occupied Poland (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-46). Auschwitz, where all transports of French Jews went during that period, was not in the Generalgouvernement, but west of it, in the part of Poland Germany had annexed in 1939. - A German officer, Ahnert, who had taken part in a conference on the "solution of the Jewish question" reported on 1 September, 1942, that stateless Jews from France would be sent to a camp to be built in Russia (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-59). - These two cases prove that Auschwitz merely served as a transit camp for a part of the Jews deported there. This squares perfectly with those German documents which refer to the "evacuation" and "resettlement" of the Jews in the East. Although the documentation is very fragmentary, the few cases mentioned profoundly shake the exterminationist thesis according to which Jews sent to Auschwitz but not registered there were murdered in gas chambers.

The problem of the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz between May and June 1944, of whom but 28.000 where registered, is also largely unsolved. As we have already shown, the extermination of these Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau cannot have taken place because the cremation of the bodies would not have been feasible. On May 9, Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler explained in a letter to the SS main office of economic administration that 200.000 Jews would be employed in military industry (Nuremberg document NO-5689). Since no large-scale deportations of Jews from countries other than Hungary were occurring at that time, these 200.000 must necessarily have come from there. Between June and October 1944, more than 23.000 predominantly female Jewish prisoners were sent from Auschwitz to the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig where they were employed in factories, but also in agriculture. A large number of them were from Hungary (Stutthof, Muzeum Archiwum, I-IIB-8; Juergen Graf and Carlo Mattogno, Das Konzentrationslager Stutthof und seine Funktion in der nationalsozialistischen Judenpolitik, Castle Hill Publisher, Hastings 1999). This proves that Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz but not registered there were transferred to other camps, or to factories in the German Reich, but the destination of most of them remains unknown.


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What happened to the Dutch Jews?

Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:40 pm)

The Netherlands is the Western European country whose Jewish population was most severely decimated in the Shoah (1940-1945). While France lost 25% of its Jews, and Belgium and Norway each lost 40%, no less than 75% of the Jewish population of the Netherlands was murdered by the Nazis. This percentage was the third-highest in Europe as a whole, after the Jewish communities of Poland and Greece.

Before World War II, about 140,000 Jews were living in the Netherlands, plus some 20,000 descendants of marriages between Jews and non-Jews. Most of the members of the latter group survived the Nazi occupation. It was the former group, defined by the Nazis as Volljuden, that was the target of systematic persecution. Over 105,000 were deported, mainly to Auschwitz and Sobibor, and only several thousand survived and returned to the Netherlands. These returnees, together with those who had been successfully hidden by non-Jews within the country, formed a group of about 35,000 survivors in 1945.


The above was taken from an exterminationist site, and is perhaps necessary to set the context of what I am about to post. In an exterminationist text I read that out of a prewar Dutch population of 140,000 Jews (including about 15,000 Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria) about 107,000 were deported, of whom about 105,000 did not return, with the exterminationist text assuming they were murdered by one means or another.

Now, although I would not assume that the missing Dutch Jews were necessarily exterminated by one means or another, or that they necessarily mostly died as a result of disease, starvation, collateral war damage, or for any other reason, I would think that it would be very difficult for any revisionist to explain why it was that most of the deported Jews were not able to return to Holland, if it was not the case that the Nazis had no thought for the welfare of the deported Jews, and, so either actively sought to exterminate them by one means or another, or were so negligent of their welfare that they allowed them to die off en masse, so that perhaps there really was objectively a Shoah after all, in effect, about which the revisionists really have no moral right to dispute.

I would think that it is perhaps conceivable that, after assuming that perhaps a certain percentage perished in the concentration camps (and also disregarding the possibility of intentional extermination), a great number determined not to want to return to Holland, as a result of what had happened to them, and that they became displaced persons seeking to emigrate to, say, either Palestine or North America. This is only abstract speculation, however, and it really behoves the revisionists to come up with some concrete proof that there is an innocuous reason why nearly all the deported Jews did not return to Holland, otherwise disinterested observers cannot help but be skeptical -- as a "Holocaust" agnostic I do not think it is inconceivable that the Nazis intended to physically exterminate the Jews within their political purview, possibly because they were "useless eaters" for the most part. It should also be remembered that there would be a qualitative difference between a Western democratic nation like Holland and the various Eastern European nations where anti-Semitism was endemic, so that, once the Nazi threat was finished, there was really no reason why the Jews could not have returned to Holland.

There are other reasons that are conceivable why the Dutch Jews nearly all did not return to Holland, but, for the present, I would be very interested to hear what experienced revisionists have to say about the matter, in perhaps a concrete sense (although I would doubt if it was really possible to go beyond informed speculation), since surely such an issue puts their raison d'etre as revisionists into question in the eyes of disinterested observers. As far as I can tell the issue I have raised has not been dealt with in this thread about the Dutch Jews, and it is surely well within the subject of the thread.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:05 am)

Apparently comrade seinfeld has not read this thread as he simply repeats a previously stated position.

The 'where they went' possibilities are endless as shown in this thread, he should read the thread. And since the gas chambers have been demonstrated as patently absurd we are left with a situation in which Believers resort to asking Revisionists to disprove Believer assertions which have no basis in fact. Classic 'holocau$t' logic.

Jews went where Jews are.

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Re: What happened to the Dutch Jews?

Postby Juan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:36 am)

comrade seinfeld wrote:Thus, no matter how you look at the situation, it cannot be conclusively ruled out that there were no homicidal gassings


It's possible, that in a twitch of black humour or personal vendetta, someone (Kapo, guard?) threw a person (jew, russian, communist, criminal, just someone?) inside a delousing chamber, or left someone inside a building being sanitized with Zyklon B.

But's still homicide, and has to be proved. And as the SS did not caught anyone killing by gassing, the "allies" should have been the ones to make an investigation, which they didn't.

(edited typing errors)


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