Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

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Eric Hunt
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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Eric Hunt » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:14 am)

I support Graf's figure until someone posts a better one.

Graf's taking into account ghetto deaths and the many, many, camps not covered by the Red Cross as well as unregistered inmates.

Trying to analyze how to reach newcomers, I think It's a nonstarter for people we are trying to reach to simply be pointed to the Red Cross documentation as it's incomplete. It doesn't hurt to have a Revisionist figure of total deaths due to NS persecution to put against the six million figure.

In fact it's necessary and it's a little shocking to me that it hasn't been done and that Graf's figure is so controversial.

So you guys can post your own calculations, until that I support Graf's estimate based on what I said. Estimate the number of major ghetto deaths, Red Cross deaths, plus the 42,000? ghettos and labor camps and you'll get to a figure near his estimate.
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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 6 months ago (Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:29 am)

To the best of anyone's knowledge, has Graf ever properly quantified the, "between one and one and a half million" figure? (I cannot find where he has - but that hardly means he has not!) Without at least some kind of tangible breakdown, I don't see how we can accept that figure as is, though. I also think, for any of this to be truly meaningful from a Revisionist standpoint, it is necessary to better define this NS "persecution" that is said to be the overriding cause of those deaths.

I know Germar Rudolf took a stab at breaking down the numbers - but again the conclusions are rather vague to me.

http://germarrudolf.com/germars-views/2 ... -analysis/

I don't think any sane person would claim that a considerable number of Jews didn't perish either directly or indirectly as a result of NS policy toward Jews in the territories under their control.(ie, being exposed to Typhus in the camps, etc.) We have some numbers that leave no doubt of that, depending upon how one views the phenomenon of death in captivity, etc. But is there anything that realistically and meaningfully supports this 1-1.5 million number? Given all the obstacles to truth that have been placed in the way of open and honest research into these numbers, is it even realistic to suppose we'll ever actually be able to say, definitively, "how many," beyond the most general estimates?

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:12 pm)

Eric Hunt:
It doesn't hurt to have a Revisionist figure of total deaths due to NS persecution to put against the six million figure.
It does hurt, since the figure has no more basis than the 6,000,000. And I do not think that Eric Hunt has the right to give that number as the 'official' Revisionist number. I strongly protest.

Inquisitor:
But is there anything that realistically and meaningfully supports this 1-1.5 million number?
Nope, nothing at all. It's just the psychology of appeasement at work.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby blake121666 » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:43 pm)

Hannover wrote:Eric Hunt:
It doesn't hurt to have a Revisionist figure of total deaths due to NS persecution to put against the six million figure.
It does hurt, since the figure has no more basis than the 6,000,000. And I do not think that Eric Hunt has the right to give that number as the 'official' Revisionist number. I strongly protest.

Inquisitor:
But is there anything that realistically and meaningfully supports this 1-1.5 million number?
Nope, nothing at all. It's just the psychology of appeasement at work.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

- Hannover


I quite agree with Hannover here. Eric needs to understand that he is not in some type of favorable bargaining position with this tactic - thinking along the lines of coming to some sympathetic type of agreement on suffering or something. What that gets you is David Irving or Mark Weber's position. No one on the other side (or anyone even favorable to his side) wants this sort of thing. The 1.0-1.5 million is certainly not a solid estimate at this time. Stick to solid facts that refute the other side's positions and if you are so inclined (against the wishes of most revisionists I would guess) throw in that Graf has the 1.0-1,5 million estimate. I fail to see any advantage at all to throwing this out there in your presentation - particularly given the uncertainties of it.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Eric Hunt » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:14 pm)

Hannover or anyone else can by all means propose a broken-down figure of Jewish deaths. If it checks out, I'll support that.

I chose Graf's because he's apparently the only one to do it so far and the estimate fits my ballpark estimate as well.

I was never satisfied with the Red Cross numbers, and neither are the general public. There are "countless" Jews not mentioned in that Red Cross report of the bigger concentration camps, who died of starvation, were shot, committed suicide due to persecution. Not to mention un-registered Jews weren't counted.

I'm busy with a lot of different projects so don't have time to do my own breakdown right now.

Certainly, I suggest you do one yourself.

I don't claim to have the right to say Graf's is the best figure or "the" Revisionist figure. I say it's Graf's figure, which I accept until someone proposes a better one.

And taking into account the major ghettos, the minor ghettos, Transnistria, Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, etc., I think I'd come up with a similar figure.

I choose to present Graf's figure because another one doesn't even exist! So by all means everyone can post their own breakdown.

I don't view it as throwing a bone, and me of all people wouldn't do that to these criminal hoaxers.

I asked Mr. Graf about his estimate after starting this "Holocaust Hoax Museum" website and exploring ways to reach newcomers and seeing their reactions. I believe a "Revisionist" figure on Jewish deaths due to NS persecution puts things into context for newcomers who believe the Red Cross figures are incomplete and the Jewish deaths number far more than 300,000. This number is not believable to newcomers because it's not a proper total.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:40 pm)

Eric:
Hannover or anyone else can by all means propose a broken-down figure of Jewish deaths. If it checks out, I'll support that.
But Graf never provided " a broken-down figure of Jewish deaths", he merely says there were other camps etc., nothing new there. What he doesn't do is provide proof that Jews at those sites died in such extreme numbers.
I was never satisfied with the Red Cross numbers, and neither are the general public. There are "countless" Jews not mentioned in that Red Cross report of the bigger concentration camps, who died of starvation, were shot, committed suicide due to persecution. Not to mention un-registered Jews weren't counted.
General public? LOL. What the ____? What do they know about the Red Cross numbers. Nothing
Again you make claims of large scale death with no proof. Just wingin' it, eh?
And taking into account the major ghettos, the minor ghettos, Transnistria, Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic states, etc., I think I'd come up with a similar figure.
But why? Have you found the alleged mass graves? Has anyone? Nope.
I believe a "Revisionist" figure on Jewish deaths due to NS persecution puts things into context for newcomers who believe the Red Cross figures are incomplete and the Jewish deaths number far more than 300,000. This number is not believable to newcomers because it's not a proper total.
Proper total? How is it proper? We have seen nothing other than what Graf just throws out there. What he doesn't do is provide proof that Jews in such numbers died there.

There are no authentic documents* to prove this, no mass graves, no physical proof of any kind but still Eric plows forward and belives that the total can move from the Red Cross's 300,000 to Graf's 1,000,000 - 1,500,000 without proof. Magical.

* see my posts here:
Hannover @ Legitimate Nazi Atrocities
and:
Hannover @ Eric Hunt's response to David Cole / Treblinka

Blake said:
I quite agree with Hannover here. Eric needs to understand that he is not in some type of favorable bargaining position with this tactic - thinking along the lines of coming to some sympathetic type of agreement on suffering or something. What that gets you is David Irving or Mark Weber's position. No one on the other side (or anyone even favorable to his side) wants this sort of thing. The 1.0-1.5 million is certainly not a solid estimate at this time. Stick to solid facts that refute the other side's positions and if you are so inclined (against the wishes of most revisionists I would guess) throw in that Graf has the 1.0-1,5 million estimate. I fail to see any advantage at all to throwing this out there in your presentation - particularly given the uncertainties of it.
Nicely put.

The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. Truth needs no protection from scrutiny. The tide is turning.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Dresden » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:04 pm)

Eric Hunt said:

"I choose to present Graf's figure because another one doesn't even exist!"

That's not true; most revisionists have estimates.

"I don't view it as throwing a bone, and me of all people wouldn't do that to these criminal hoaxers"

You're not throwing the bone to the hoaxers, Eric.....you're throwing it to the "newcomers"

"I asked Mr. Graf about his estimate after starting this "Holocaust Hoax Museum" website and exploring ways to reach newcomers and seeing their reactions"

Truth is not dependent on peoples' reactions; that's how "psychics" and conmen operate.

"I believe a "Revisionist" figure on Jewish deaths due to NS persecution puts things into context for newcomers who believe the Red Cross figures are incomplete and the Jewish deaths number far more than 300,000"

If you're concerned with what newcomers believe, then you're obviously "throwing them a bone".
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Eric Hunt » 6 years 6 months ago (Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:31 pm)

I'm not throwing them a bone, I'm throwing them a steak, something they can sink their teeth in. Currently I believe it to be closer to reality than anything else offered so far. Talking about "Hoax" and soccer games, etc., we sometimes lose sight that hundreds of thousands of Jews starved to death, died of terrible diseases, committed suicide after losing loved ones, etc.

The other side mocks the memory of these victims. Irene Zisblatt, good example. We don't have to.

300,000 Jews (inmates, actually) from the Red Cross figures is a nonstarter. More than that died, everyone here knows it.

A Revisionist estimate of the death toll, it seems, hasn't been addressed properly and it's good that this has caused controversy.

If you disagree with Graf, where's your estimate or that of a Revisionist you claim has the closest estimate to what you believe to be the truth?

I have been talking to open minded, inquisitive people who ask this question and an answer is required. Part of what turns them off about "denial" is that in some ways the "positive" message about what actually happened in some areas isn't fully developed.

The 1 - 1.5 million Jews Graf claims died as a result of NS persecution should be put into context and perspective of a World War with a typhus epidemic and similar losses of German POWs, German civilians, Soviet POWs, Chinese civilians, Japanese civilians... And the reason for them being put into camps should be discussed, their history of being expelled from every country discussed.

You can believe that the policy was justified or not, but Graf's ballpark number is the best I have so far.

No one here who objects has offered something better.

This is what newcomers to the controversy don't like. "No, this is wrong, no this didn't happen." Ok, then what did happen? You say Graf's numbers are wrong, what are your numbers?

Thanks
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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Hannover » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:19 am)

Eric, while you continue to ignore all the specific points that myself and others have made ... must they be repeated? You also continue to expect an illogical action from Revisionists. Why should Revisionists be expected to estimate the numbers of Jews that they don't believe died en masse at those sites in the first place? It makes no sense and is beginning to be simply strange.
300,000 Jews (inmates, actually) from the Red Cross figures is a nonstarter. More than that died, everyone here knows it.
No they don't know it. Look at the reactions you're getting. You have no basis for saying that whatsoever. And knowing the Red Cross number of 300,000 is for all deaths, not just Jews, means your belief in Graf's bizarre 1M - 1.5M Jews is even more preposterous.

Show us the alleged documents, show us the alleged mass graves to prove this additional 1.2 million. You can't because, as demonstrated, they do not exist.

Exactitude, not appeasement.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby borjastick » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:42 am)

Eric, top respect to you and all the work you have done so far. You are a star!

However I must disagree with some of your points concerning the figure of Jewish deaths. We certainly don't know what the figure is and on the basis of a credible supply of data, verifiable of course we cannot accept such a loose figure of 1m-1.5m. That figure is so wide in its parameters that it cannot be anything more than a stab in the dark a finger in the air.

Whenever I have the holocaust conversation with someone the numbers come up pretty fast. I am always asked how many died when I claim the six million figure is nonsense. I cannot give a number except for the Red Cross one. I know in my gut the figure is probably more but I struggle to put a much higher number than 500,000 simply because there is no more hard data on it.
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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby NLH » 6 years 6 months ago (Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:58 am)

Does anyone know of contact details for this guy? If so someone should challenge him as he seems up for it.

I would contact him directly and with an open letter but I am far from as knowledgable as you guys. What do people think?

As I said earlier, he classes us in the top 3 most "morally repugnant people." I can think of, off the top of my head, pedophiles, rapists, murderers, women beaters, animal abusers, thieves. that is 7, so on his rationale, 4 of those are better than people who simply want to ask a question. And I bet others can think of more. He is insane.

He makes wild statements about revisionists, their scholarship, and opinions without backing anything up. I wonder if anyone here would challenge him to an open debate. Afterall, he is up for free speech.
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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:55 am)

Hannover wrote:. Why should Revisionists be expected to estimate the numbers of Jews that they don't believe died en masse at those sites in the first place?

Exactitude, not appeasement.

- Hannover


I think this succinctly sums up what many of us are getting at, or if you prefer, take issue with in regard to accepting a death-toll figure that thus far, no one can support statistically/factually. Maybe Graf's figure is accurate - maybe it is low by a quarter million - or maybe it is three or four times too high! The point is, we don't know.

Personally, I'm okay with answering, "I just don't know" to the "how many" question. I've been doing it for years. In fact, I'm much more comfortable with that response that just giving a wide-ranging estimate that is more a guess than anything else.

Obviously, since one of Revisionism's central tenets is that the 6-million figure is utterly unsupportable, and a wild exaggeration, I think we need to be extra careful not to accept ANY figure that isn't statistically/factually supported (even as an estimate). I also think that is why there is no apparent consensus of any kind on the Revisionist side as to what this figure really is.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:13 am)

^

I would just add an afterthought - perhaps this topic, that of Revisionist "approved" death-totals(for lack of better way to put it), should be made into a thread of its own. I don't want any of my comments to appear to be specifically directed only at Eric or that we are "ganging up" on him! :mrgreen:

Seriously, though, this probably is a discussion topic unto itself, and I suspect many would like to know if any of these claims( ala 1 - 1.5 mil, etc.) are or have ever been broken down, or what their origins are and so forth.

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable death total of Jews?

Postby borjastick » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:35 pm)

The subject is worthy of discussion and has been covered on a number of occasions such as this:

So how many Jews died?

Inquisitor said

Personally, I'm okay with answering, "I just don't know" to the "how many" question. I've been doing it for years. In fact, I'm much more comfortable with that response that just giving a wide-ranging estimate that is more a guess than anything else.


I agree but the usual response from the believer is along the lines of ' so if you cannot give me a figure it could be six million then...'.

I think the Red Cross figures are a good starting point and one that is difficult to argue with. The question remains how many died on top of that figure. I still find it difficult to get beyond 500k-600k in total. Only when the claimed mass graves have been identified and examined, including all those in the claimed Einsatzgruppen actions such as Babi Yar and the like can we even hazard a guess. This won't happen because whenever
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Do Revisionists have a verfiable total for deaths of Jew

Postby Kingfisher » 6 years 6 months ago (Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:15 pm)

Since we don't know for sure it's a matter of probabilities. To the guy who says "So it could be 6M we reply "It could, but I reckon that to be improbable at a level approaching impossible." I'd put it at 90% probable it's somewhere between 500K and 2.5M, but once you start narrowing it down you have to give a lower level of probability to your figure.


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