Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

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hermod
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Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:13 pm)

Assessment of the number of Jews who would have died in Europe from 1933 to 1945 and from September 1939 to May 1945 without any Hitler, Nazis, WW2, war casualties, war shortages, deportations, forced labor, ghettoes and war-related epidemics.

Sometimes we need to state the obvious. People die all the time. They die from old age, disease, injury, and accident. They die from homicide, and they die from suicide. In any sufficiently large population group, about 1% die of such causes every year.[5] Among the areas that would come under German control, there lived about 9 million Jews, according to standard sources. Therefore, this Jewish population would have experienced something like 90,000 deaths per year—even if Hitler had never been born. Over the course of the war, roughly 520,000 Jews would have died, even if the Germans completely ignored them. And if we count the time since the Nazis came to power in 1933, some 1.3 million would have died.

Since the experts give us so few details, we have to assume that any Jew, in or from a German-occupied country, that died during the Nazi era, for any reason, counts as a “Holocaust victim.” We therefore have over 1 million victims before we even count a single Nazi murder. Any fair accounting of Jewish mortality would subtract the 1 million or so natural deaths from the putative total. But this rarely happens.

This also helps to explain those who say, “My so-and-so relative(s) died in the Holocaust.” What they mean, most likely, is that they died or went missing during the Nazi era, of causes neither specified nor even actually known. The blame adheres to Hitler by default, and the sympathy to the “bereaved.” Is this reasonable? Clearly not. But until we get details regarding who died, when, and how, we cannot determine the reality of the situation.

Source: "The Great Holocaust Mystery: Reconsidering the Evidence" by Thomas Dalton (http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ystery.php)
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Dresden » 5 years 2 months ago (Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:57 pm)

Thomas Dalton said:

"Sometimes we need to state the obvious. People die all the time. They die from old age, disease, injury, and accident. They die from homicide, and they die from suicide. In any sufficiently large population group, about 1% die of such causes every year.[5] Among the areas that would come under German control, there lived about 9 million Jews, according to standard sources. Therefore, this Jewish population would have experienced something like 90,000 deaths per year—even if Hitler had never been born. Over the course of the war, roughly 520,000 Jews would have died, even if the Germans completely ignored them. And if we count the time since the Nazis came to power in 1933, some 1.3 million would have died"

There were never more than 4 million Jews in the area under German control.

From 1933 to 1945:

About 19 million Germans died of all causes; 9 million in the war(surely an understatement).

25 million Americans died of all causes; about 1.1 million in the war?

About 170 million Europeans died of all causes; about 85 million during the war.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Kingfisher » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:44 am)

A case of the screamingly obvious that is largely ignored, including by revisionists. Over a long enough period the death rate is 100%. The figure used of 1% annually is far too low! Was the average lifespan 100 years? According to gapminder.org, the expectation of life at birth in Poland in 1939 was 50, and in Russia 38. Given the higher rate even of "natural" deaths under wartime privation I would think that 3-4% would be more realistic, and may even be too low. Under normal circumstances, deaths are replaced by births, but in time of war, especially with a population interned and segregated by sex, the replacement rate will drop, regardless of the increased death rate, leading to a population fall.
Steve F wrote:There were never more than 4 million Jews in the area under German control.
While I think you are probably right here, we do have to insert the "probably". We just don't have hard evidence. The 4M figure is not inconsistent with the 9M having lived in areas under German control. We have to allow for pre-war emigration, which was substantial. In the case of Germany the figure was certainly well over half. Poland is unclear, but anecdotal evidence suggests that a lot of Polish Jews were to be found in Western Europe, though some of these would find themselves back under German control in France and Benelux. However around half of Polish Jews lived in the area occupied by the Russians in 1939, and to these we must add the number who fled to the Soviet zone ahead of the Germans. The evidence is that most of these in the Soviet zone were evacuated in 1941. Others went underground in the partisans or were in the Soviet army, or simply hid, and therefore cannot properly be said to have been under German control. Hence I think that 4M is a defendable figure, though it cannot be presented as a certainty.

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:36 am)

Steve F wrote:There were never more than 4 million Jews in the area under German control.


That's very possible. IMO, the real number was even smaller. Probably around 2 million. Rabbi Stephen S. Wise of the World Jewish Congress used the 4-million figure in late 1942, when he 'announced' that Hitler had ordered the extermination of all the Jews in German-occupied Europe. Dr Wise said at that time that Hitler had exterminated 2 million out of the 4 million Jews in German-occupied Europe*, what means there were around 2 million Jews in Hitler's hands in late 1942 (according to Rabbi Wise's figure). The World Jewish Congress had representatives of most Jewish communities in the world in its ranks. If anybody was at the right place to know how many Jews were in German-occupied Europe, Rabbi Wise was that guy. As the German armies didn't capture additional substantial territories and their Jewish communities after that time (that was the beginning of the end of WW2 for the 3rd Reich), Rabbi Wise's 2-million figure can be regarded as a final figure. Moreover, in 1943, the FBI reported that there were only 2 million Jews in German-occupied Europe according to the Zionist Organization of America (see the FBI report about Dr Heller's memo below).

Image
http://www.rense.com/general93/z.htm



(* Rabbi Wise was a prominent Zionist running for the spoliation of Palestine through atrocity propaganda and using the 6-million figure as early as in 1900.)
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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby hermod » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:41 am)

Kingfisher wrote:A case of the screamingly obvious that is largely ignored, including by revisionists. Over a long enough period the death rate is 100%. The figure used of 1% annually is far too low! Was the average lifespan 100 years? According to gapminder.org, the expectation of life at birth in Poland in 1939 was 50, and in Russia 38. Given the higher rate even of "natural" deaths under wartime privation I would think that 3-4% would be more realistic, and may even be too low. Under normal circumstances, deaths are replaced by births, but in time of war, especially with a population interned and segregated by sex, the replacement rate will drop, regardless of the increased death rate, leading to a population fall.


And the Jewish people had a low birth rate since the former "Pale of Settlement" had been emptied to a large extent with many Eastern Jews having migrated to ther places, mainly Western cities. Some Jews were complaining that the Jewish people no longer had "a reservoir of population" at that time, what was "leading toward annihilation" (hermod @ Sept 1939: Jews predict Jewry's demographic annihilation).
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Mulegino1 » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:21 am)

I think this touches on the mythical nature of the narrative, which is not bound, apparently, by the merely profane concerns of ordinary day to day life or things like ordinary sickness and death. ALL of the Jews who died during the period were victims of Hitler, or so the legend goes, implying that the "Holocaust" occurred in some kind of extra-dimensional plane, beyond day to day reality as well as the effects of the greatest and most destructive conflict in human history.

At least that is the impression that I have gotten listening to or reading many of the "eyewitness accounts", many of which sound more like the stories told by those who claim to have been abducted by extraterrestrials, as well as those descriptions of witches' sabbaths during the witch trials.

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby blake121666 » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:23 pm)

Steve F wrote:There were never more than 4 million Jews in the area under German control.

From 1933 to 1945:

About 19 million Germans died of all causes; 9 million in the war(surely an understatement).

25 million Americans died of all causes; about 1.1 million in the war?

About 170 million Europeans died of all causes; about 85 million during the war.


Where are you getting these figures Steve?

1. In the areas later to be occupied by Germany, we know that there were in 1931 about 11 million Jews. You glibly declare "never more than 4 million Jews under German control". I'm looking into this matter and will come up with my own opinion in the next few months; but I can guarantee you, my figure will not be that. To guess at this point in time, I'd say about 7-9 million Jews in all German occupied areas. I don't see my low figure going below 6 million. What happened to the 63% of the Jews (63%!!!!!) that you claim vamoosed by the time the Germans occupied these areas? Even Sanning doesn't go as low as you people and he's obviously attempting to get the number as low as possible (I think he's wrong about the Polish Jews BTW - he's off by about a million there).

2. 25 million Americans died between 1933 and 1945?! We had a population of about 125-130 million at the time, How did 25 million (about 20%) die in 12 years - I would assume it to be about 1/2 of this? Most people think about 1/2 million died in combat, what is your 1.1 million figure?

3. I'm not going into your European numbers other than to say, they look *way* too big to me. Point me to where you've come up with these large numbers. Are you including Soviets or something? These figures are highly inflated (as are all numbers given in any war). How did 85 million die between 1933 and 1939 (by your figures)? I think you might mean "the entire world" with these figures - not Europe.

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Dresden » 5 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:43 pm)

hermod wrote:
Steve F wrote:There were never more than 4 million Jews in the area under German control.


That's very possible. IMO, the real number was even smaller. Probably around 2 million. Rabbi Stephen S. Wise of the World Jewish Congress used the 4-million figure in late 1942, when he 'announced' that Hitler had ordered the extermination of all the Jews in German-occupied Europe. Dr Wise said at that time that Hitler had exterminated 2 million out of the 4 million Jews in German-occupied Europe*, what means there were around 2 million Jews in Hitler's hands in late 1942 (according to Rabbi Wise's figure). The World Jewish Congress had representatives of most Jewish communities in the world in its ranks. If anybody was at the right place to know how many Jews were in German-occupied Europe, Rabbi Wise was that guy. As the German armies didn't capture additional substantial territories and their Jewish communities after that time (that was the beginning of the end of WW2 for the 3rd Reich), Rabbi Wise's 2-million figure can be regarded as a final figure. Moreover, in 1943, the FBI reported that there were only 2 million Jews in German-occupied Europe according to the Zionist Organization of America (see the FBI report about Dr Heller's memo below).Image
http://www.rense.com/general93/z.htm



(* Rabbi Wise was a prominent Zionist running for the spoliation of Palestine through atrocity propaganda and using the 6-million figure as early as in 1900.)


The population of America in 1933 was 130,000,000

In 1945 it was 140,000,000.

The life expectancy in America between 1933 and 1945 was about 64 years.

Doing the math: 25 million Americans died between 1933 and 1945.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The population of Europe(not including Russia) in 1940 was about 500 million.

The life expectancy was about 57 years.

About 85 million Europeans died in the war

Doing the math: About 190 million Europeans died between 1933 and 1945.

That's 105 million "natural" deaths; plus 85 million war dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

"World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total dead ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million.[1] The sources cited in this article document an estimated death toll in World War II that range from approximately 60 to 85 million, making it the deadliest war in world history in absolute terms of total dead but not in terms of deaths relative to the world population. The higher figure of 85 million includes deaths from war-related disease and famine"

My estimate off the top of my head was way too low!

In 1940 the world population was about 2.5 billion.

The life expectancy was about 37 years(maybe a little lower).

Between 1933 and 1945 about 850 million people died in the world.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:16 am)

Two quick points here. Firstly didn't the Wannsee figures show eleven million jews in total right across the projected German state including Russia. I will check these figures again but if they are true that would clearly show that the real figures under German control were massively less than 11m and probably in the region of 4-6m. Then one has to allow for all those millions who left by any means.

The second point is I believe there is some double counting going on here.
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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Hektor » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:03 am)

Steve F wrote:...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

"World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total dead ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million.[1] The sources cited in this article document an estimated death toll in World War II that range from approximately 60 to 85 million, making it the deadliest war in world history in absolute terms of total dead but not in terms of deaths relative to the world population. The higher figure of 85 million includes deaths from war-related disease and famine"
...

The 55 million world war II casualty figure is tossed around frequently. Not sure if that includes post 8th May death which was also substantial. But apparently it includes the East Asian theater as well. A big chunk of it is the Soviet figure of twenty million, which I believe is inflated for political reasons.


Jewish figure for the famous twelve years? Most likely 20% of their population. Assume 15 million Jews 3 million would have died within the 12 years Hitler ruled Germany. But the figure is globally. Not unimportant when calculating population shifts into it.

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Dresden » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:46 am)

Hektor said:

"But the figure is globally. Not unimportant when calculating population shifts into it"

Speaking of "globally"; of the 50,000 or so "survivor" interviews conducted by Steven Spielberg, I bet a few thousand of them suffered through the war in such dangerous places as Hollywood, Beverly Hills, New York City, and Miami Beach.

Do you think that's possible?
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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:48 pm)

So here's a start point on these figures, at least for consideration.

This is from a translated version of the Wannsee conference minutes. I say 'a' translated version due to the number of versions that some say are in circulation. I accept that there is legitimate concern about everything to do with the claims of the Wannsee conference and the minutes that have some technical errors or interpretations.

However the figure was 11 million jews to be removed in the 'final solution'. But the figures shown below show some massive leaps of calculation from the exterminationist viewpoint.

'Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:



Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484



Total over 11,000,000'

But if you remove the figures for
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484
France 700,000
England 330,000
And if you view the Hungary figure with suspicion the overall total drops to around the 2 million mark!

Then if one reduces the figure by natural wastage as this thread discusses the number declines even further.
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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Thames Darwin » 5 years 2 months ago (Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:53 pm)

Borjastick, you can't deduct the USSR and deduct Ukraine and Belarus. The USSR figure is meant to include the latter two. Otherwise, the total figure is three million too large.

So you get to < 5 million if you subtract what you suggest, including being suspicious over Hungary, which one ought to be, considering the territory ceded to or annexed by Romania and Slovakia. E.g., Wiesel was Romanian but deported with the Hungarian Aktion. God only knows how differently these countries might have counted the Chosen Ones.

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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby borjastick » 5 years 2 months ago (Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:02 am)

Thames Darwin wrote:Borjastick, you can't deduct the USSR and deduct Ukraine and Belarus. The USSR figure is meant to include the latter two. Otherwise, the total figure is three million too large.

So you get to < 5 million if you subtract what you suggest, including being suspicious over Hungary, which one ought to be, considering the territory ceded to or annexed by Romania and Slovakia. E.g., Wiesel was Romanian but deported with the Hungarian Aktion. God only knows how differently these countries might have counted the Chosen Ones.


Actually the figures for the USSR, Ukraine and Belarus are shown as individual figures and as such should be counted. There is no reason not to include all the figures as shown. However the borders were blurred, eg. if you take Bessarabia it was taken by Russia as was part of Ukraine so as I mentioned in my first post the figures quoted here are spurious. However the real issue is that whether the number of Jews was 11m or 14m neither is likely to have been accurate, under the control of Germany at any time, and of course was subject to revision downwards. These were assumptions of likely jewish numbers in each country, no more.

I am not certain at all about the Wannsee conference and what it was supposed to have done, after all if one believes the minutes it only lasted about one hour. However I do feel that the numbers of jews ever under German control was massively less than the 11-14m by at least 50% and likely more than 70% down. Then as this thread shows if one accounts for natural loss the figure left for the so called 'final solution' would have been very small.
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Re: Jewish natural mortality without any Hitler, WW2, etc.

Postby Thames Darwin » 5 years 2 months ago (Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:52 pm)

borjastick wrote:Actually the figures for the USSR, Ukraine and Belarus are shown as individual figures and as such should be counted. There is no reason not to include all the figures as shown.


I'm not trying to get into a pissing match here, but that's wrong. Add the numbers as given in the Protocol. They add up to around 14.75 million. The only way to get to "over 11 million" is not to count the numbers from Ukraine and Belarus twice. Then, the total is 11..3 million or so. Only the latter scenario makes the "over 11 million" sense.

However the borders were blurred, eg. if you take Bessarabia it was taken by Russia as was part of Ukraine so as I mentioned in my first post the figures quoted here are spurious.


No, it was taken by Romania, and this is in fact mentioned in the protocol, which lists "Rumania including Bessarabia."


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